List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[bergholt]

Funny how peeps always look at the "successes" taken after our pick but forget all the misses taken before and after the Pick.

Sam Petrevski-Stevens Pick 6 (Delisted)

Dan Venables Pick 13 (Retired)

Cedric Cox Pick 24 (Delisted)

Ben Long Pick 25 (94 games - still playing)

Sam McLarty Pick 30 (Zero games)

Joe Atley Pick 32 (4 games)

Sounds like the argument is “other clubs make mistakes sometimes so we should be fine making mistakes”?

 

[Ricmel]

Funny how peeps always look at the "successes" taken after our pick but forget all the misses taken before and after the Pick.

That is fair point you expect a few misses and to get it wrong occasionally.

But how do you get it wrong with 8 first round picks in 5 years (13-17). Not a single A grader. You could argue not a single B grader. No matter how pathetically hopeless your recruiting team is, you would think that they would fluke at least ONE.

 

[bergholt]

Jamie Shanahan hurt

David Grant for me

 

[Tommy Wigs]

That is fair point you expect a few misses and to get it wrong occasionally.

But how do you get it wrong with 8 first round picks in 5 years (13-17). Not a single A grader. You could argue not a single B grader. No matter how pathetically hopeless your recruiting team is, you would think that they would fluke at least ONE.

That era. Gawd. You’re triggering me.

Elshaugh and Richardson. Just wanna ….

 

[gringo2011]

If we can get improvement in the right areas there's no reason we can't improve next year.

Getting a full season out of top quality Steele would be huge.

Then it's a question of which kids can go into the middle and impact.

We need to find two elite mids, then it'll fill out around them. Steele is the obvious one. I think Pou is the one to watch but doubt he gets there next year. Owens maybe? Windy?

Getting Steele through fit and finding some ready to play midfield talent would even do. You don't have to have a star midfield but at the very least we need to have some depth when injury hits. Dow is a good start but I hope we have a few more in our sights. We've already lost Bytel and Connolly who are our only VFL mids and Gresham looks gone. Jones is not a player you imagine gets through another full season either. Leaves our mids at Crouch and Steele with an increasingly fragile Ross and perhaps Hunter Clark if he stays.

 

[saintmike65]

Err…it’s not so hard.
I was talking Acres, didn’t mention Wood at all in any of my posts until you mentioned him. He actually had nothing to do with any points I mentioned.

Never once did I compare the two. Not sure why you would be confused?

“No one is saying Acres is a star, but he’s definitely playing well.”

Where, exactly, did I express that he’s not playing well?
Why is this italicised bit so difficult to understand?

Safe to say Carlton got a bargain in Acres…future 3rd pick that Freo might not even use, as it’ll likely be pick 60 odd!

 

[pebblesofsand]

Sounds like the argument is “other clubs make mistakes sometimes so we should be fine making mistakes”?

No the argument is that drafting is an imprecise activity and all clubs have and will continue to stuff up selections and make left field killer selections.

So unless people are into a little self flagellation (or non stop flagellation in some cases), why would anyone bother picking the eyes out who we might have drafted and then make themselves feel worse by disregarding all the failures that preceded our picks.

 

[gringo2011]

That is fair point you expect a few misses and to get it wrong occasionally.

But how do you get it wrong with 8 first round picks in 5 years (13-17). Not a single A grader. You could argue not a single B grader. No matter how pathetically hopeless your recruiting team is, you would think that they would fluke at least ONE.

You want to see how good versus bad drafting works you look at 2014.

St Kilda trade out Stanley to get three picks inside 25. McCartin, Goddard, DMac and then Lonie. Weller, Shenton, Minchington, Templeton put on the main list. Did rookie Sinclair though. Other rookies, Payne, Schnieder and Ahmed Saad.

Collingwood. DeGoey, Darcy Moore, Brayden Maynard, Goodyear. Rookie Mason Cox.

Melbourne, drafted Petracca, Brayshaw, Neale-Bullen, Oscar McDonald.

And the really bad. GWS Had 3 top 10 picks- Pickett, Marchbank, Ahern. Pat McKenna and Jack Steele with second round picks.
Did get Finlayson with nearly the last pick in the draft out of their academy though.

And Carlton traded pick 7 for Jakshe and Mark Wiley and used pick 19 on Blaine Boekhorst. Second round pick on Dillan Vjojo-Rainbow. Clem Smith rounding out their draft.

**** up drafting and trades and you ruin your future.

 

[Saintbloke]

Getting Steele through fit and finding some ready to play midfield talent would even do. You don't have to have a star midfield but at the very least we need to have some depth when injury hits. Dow is a good start but I hope we have a few more in our sights. We've already lost Bytel and Connolly who are our only VFL mids and Gresham looks gone. Jones is not a player you imagine gets through another full season either. Leaves our mids at Crouch and Steele with an increasingly fragile Ross and perhaps Hunter Clark if he stays.

The club has left themselves in a hole with the lack of midfield development over recent years, and it is a worry for the next few seasons.

 

[MordySaint]

You want to see how good versus bad drafting works you look at 2014.

St Kilda trade out Stanley to get three picks inside 25. McCartin, Goddard, DMac and then Lonie. Weller, Shenton, Minchington, Templeton put on the main list. Did rookie Sinclair though. Other rookies, Payne, Schnieder and Ahmed Saad.

Collingwood. DeGoey, Darcy Moore, Brayden Maynard, Goodyear. Rookie Mason Cox.

Melbourne, drafted Petracca, Brayshaw, Neale-Bullen, Oscar McDonald.

And the really bad. GWS Had 3 top 10 picks- Pickett, Marchbank, Ahern. Pat McKenna and Jack Steele with second round picks.
Did get Finlayson with nearly the last pick in the draft out of their academy though.

And Carlton traded pick 7 for Jakshe and Mark Wiley and used pick 19 on Blaine Boekhorst. Second round pick on Dillan Vjojo-Rainbow. Clem Smith rounding out their draft.

* up drafting and trades and you ruin your future.

Talk about ruining your future.

My "favourite" mishap in drafting was AFL rising star Ameet Bains getting a plumb job at the Bulldogs then staying on at St Kilda to finish draft selections and decide our future.

Future 2nd round draft in exchange for unknown injured Port defender Logan Austin... who?

 

[botts]

Talk about ruining your future.

My "favourite" mishap in drafting was AFL rising star Ameet Bains getting a plumb job at the Bulldogs then staying on at St Kilda to finish draft selections and decide our future.

Future 2nd round draft in exchange for unknown injured Port defender Logan Austin... who?

Bains really butchered that period and came out smelling like roses. I’m glad when have people back at the club that care about it and is prepared to do it properly. Not just go for sugar hits

 

[SaintsSeptember]

There is no one way to do anything, evidenced by the flip-flopping of the plan. 2 years ago we were fully topping up. Then when we got talent from our NGA kids, we did a full U-turn and went back to trading out the exact type of players we'd just culled and spent a huge amount of trade capital and money putting together.

There is no reason why we can't keep doing both, using high picks at the draft, finding under-utilised talent at other clubs and state leagues etc.

Most good lists have got players from a variety of sources and trying to draft your way out from mid table only works when you absolutely arse a suite of stars and overachieve within a system design to not let you do that.

Port is the model of a club that has turned middlers into better players at the draft but they still haven't gone anywhere with it.

Having balanced sensible plans is the way to improve. Gresham and Howard I've gone off the idea of losing for picks. You sell fringe players who are too old or guys that you've identified that aren't going to make it or in a position that you are over stacked in if you want to get back into the draft.

Port did it from a much more built list to spring off too.

You can't do quick rebuilds.
You need to keep drafting , keep the good , get rid of the bad.
If you manage to snag a couple of keepers each year you have 22 players after 11 years.
If you trade in a 26 year old , you need to replace him in 4 years ( or more, Saints have been too quick at replacing their older players ). Did we get value from Carlisle?
If you bring in a 28 year old DFA you need to replace him in a couple of years.
If you replace your trades and DFA's you probably can't draft enough to replace them, so you need to get more DFA's or trades.

2011: Ross Webster 2
2012: 0
2013: Billings* 1
2014: McKenzie , Sinclair 2
2015: Gresham* 1
2016: Battle, Marshall 2
2017: Coffield, Clark* Paton 3
2018: King , Wilkie 2
2019: Byrnes 1
2020: Highmore* Allison** 2
2021: Wanganeen-Milera , Owens , Windhager, Heath** , Sharman. 5
2022: Phillipou, Van Es*, Hotton*, Keeler** , Hayes 5

*Future in doubt
** not played AFL yet.

Our drafting actually improved in 2011, compared to the five years previous.
2021 has potential to be the best draft since the DalSanto, Joey, Ball draft.
Odds are that not all of Van Es, Hotton, Keeler, Hayes will make the grade, though it would be nice.

You take someone like Stocker, and unless his development has been completely messed up by his previous club ( and most are professionals ), you'll get what you see, and maybe find a better use for him in a different role. Odds are he's not going to become a big star. ( I think Sydney's Kennedy, is the last one i can think of that moved on and went full superstar ).

We only have one untried developing mid, and we'll struggle to find a lot of promise in this draft.

 

[True Believer]

Some turnip said after the finals loss we should trade Phillipou as he had no tools.

FMD I know who the tool was[emoji849]. The kid is 18, should be getting drafted only this year.
Some absolute spanners post on here.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

That can't be true!! If anyone has watched tthe kid, and actually said that and meant it, then they lower the IQ of our crowd by virtue of their attendance and should immediately implement a self imposed ban on future attendance at our games!

 

[Ricmel]

That can't be true!! If anyone has watched tthe kid, and actually said that and meant it, then they lower the IQ of our crowd by virtue of their attendance and should immediately implement a self imposed ban on future attendance at our games!

Totally agree on his potential. The only question I have (and maybe this is well know) is he going to stay? I hope so.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

That is fair point you expect a few misses and to get it wrong occasionally.

But how do you get it wrong with 8 first round picks in 5 years (13-17). Not a single A grader. You could argue not a single B grader. No matter how pathetically hopeless your recruiting team is, you would think that they would fluke at least ONE.

None of the blokes that made those decisions are there any longer so maybe we could get back to discussing the 2023 Trade, FA & Draft strategy instead of backing back over this rubbish for the millionth time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[beside the seaside]

Getting Steele through fit and finding some ready to play midfield talent would even do. You don't have to have a star midfield but at the very least we need to have some depth when injury hits. Dow is a good start but I hope we have a few more in our sights. We've already lost Bytel and Connolly who are our only VFL mids and Gresham looks gone. Jones is not a player you imagine gets through another full season either. Leaves our mids at Crouch and Steele with an increasingly fragile Ross and perhaps Hunter Clark if he stays.

My feeling is Owens goes in there a lot next year along with Windy. The problem is there's no guarantees. Dow will definitely help.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Stavro is spot on
Anyone expecting to play finals again next year shouldn’t. There is a chance but it’s a 50/50.
The list obviously needs a mini rebuild
Carlton have been building their list for nearly 30 years, saints 12years
Not comparable

Of course they’re not comparable.
No “rebuild” should take 30 years ffs
Made finals with kids, new coaches, and half the team injured on and off.

 

[pebblesofsand]

You blokes need some cheering up.



Enjoy!!!

 

[kernelT]

That clown is blocked. Absolute plonker, called him out on this stupid call and was abusive and insulting.
He can s.hit in his hands and clap AFAIAC.

Anyway what's it got to do with you?

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

I’ve got a soft spot for turnips.

 

[Mowman]

Stavro is spot on
Anyone expecting to play finals again next year shouldn’t. There is a chance but it’s a 50/50.
The list obviously needs a mini rebuild
Carlton have been building their list for nearly 30 years, saints 12years
Not comparable

No we shouldn’t be expecting it we should be demanding it

If the club and coaches aren’t expecting to improve from this year and go further into finals we have the wrong people in place

Jesus we have been crap for a decade no more excuses anymore. We have had our year of exploration

 

[gringo2011]

Talk about ruining your future.

My "favourite" mishap in drafting was AFL rising star Ameet Bains getting a plumb job at the Bulldogs then staying on at St Kilda to finish draft selections and decide our future.

Future 2nd round draft in exchange for unknown injured Port defender Logan Austin... who?

Sounds like Nate from Ted Lasso.

 

[gringo2011]

You can't do quick rebuilds.
You need to keep drafting , keep the good , get rid of the bad.
If you manage to snag a couple of keepers each year you have 22 players after 11 years.
If you trade in a 26 year old , you need to replace him in 4 years ( or more, Saints have been too quick at replacing their older players ). Did we get value from Carlisle?
If you bring in a 28 year old DFA you need to replace him in a couple of years.
If you replace your trades and DFA's you probably can't draft enough to replace them, so you need to get more DFA's or trades.

2011: Ross Webster 2
2012: 0
2013: Billings* 1
2014: McKenzie , Sinclair 2
2015: Gresham* 1
2016: Battle, Marshall 2
2017: Coffield, Clark* Paton 3
2018: King , Wilkie 2
2019: Byrnes 1
2020: Highmore* Allison** 2
2021: Wanganeen-Milera , Owens , Windhager, Heath** , Sharman. 5
2022: Phillipou, Van Es*, Hotton*, Keeler** , Hayes 5

*Future in doubt
** not played AFL yet.

Our drafting actually improved in 2011, compared to the five years previous.
2021 has potential to be the best draft since the DalSanto, Joey, Ball draft.
Odds are that not all of Van Es, Hotton, Keeler, Hayes will make the grade, though it would be nice.

You take someone like Stocker, and unless his development has been completely messed up by his previous club ( and most are professionals ), you'll get what you see, and maybe find a better use for him in a different role. Odds are he's not going to become a big star. ( I think Sydney's Kennedy, is the last one i can think of that moved on and went full superstar ).

We only have one untried developing mid, and we'll struggle to find a lot of promise in this draft.

Heaps of players move and step up. Ed Langdon was a big part of Melbourne's flag that year. Best wing in footy by a country mile that season. Acres doing it for Carlton. Cerra, Nick Newman is starring too. Actually Carlton has done extremely well out of ring ins.

Docherty is a star and started at Brisbane, Hewett and Martin have become players, Kennedy is good depth and Saad was an absolute gun the last couple of matches. Collingwood. Mitchell, Crisp, Howe, Markov, Hill and Adams. Lipinski dropped away but was good.

Geelong wouldn't have a flag without Stengle. Absolute stars are rare full stop. You don't get many of them from drafting or trading. If you can overachieve at the draft and find some ring-ins that are under-utilised or cheap additions through FA or trades it shoots you forward on the back of solid drafting.

 

[gringo2011]

You blokes need some cheering up.



Enjoy!!!

Richo was such a spud, that was good list still and he did **** all with it. Incredible that all we have left from that side is Sinclair, Membrey, Billings and Gresham.

 

[gringo2011]

None of the blokes that made those decisions are there any longer so maybe we could get back to discussing the 2023 Trade, FA & Draft strategy instead of backing back over this rubbish for the millionth time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lethlean designed rebuilt this list and got promoted. The whole board who have approved every stupid decision all the way through have barely changed as well. Not sure that Sos is the greatest appointment and Gubby has been there for ages and must take responsibility for a lot of the trades that we've cocked up.

 

[Diehard Saint]

My feeling is Owens goes in there a lot next year along with Windy. The problem is there's no guarantees. Dow will definitely help.

If Coff comes back any chance Stocker gets a go in the midfield - or is that wishful thinking?
He’s tough as and was initially drafted as a mid wasn’t he? I’d like to see him get a go at least to have a look.