List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[Diehard Saint]

So it was Ameet doing the draft selections & not Trout?

Who was responsible for signing Skunk for nothing? Steele for a future 2nd? Trading a single 1st that brought in Coff, Battle & now Hotten?

Hard to keep up with who is to blame/give credit to.

TBH, Membrey was a delisted free agent thanks to the Swans. So you can't really give Ameet credit for that.

 

[True Believer]

There's a lot of pissing and moaning on here about trades and draft selections and selling players out cheap and then watching them hit their straps at their new club, all while seemingly missing the glaringly obvious - DEVELOPMENT!!

Ours has sucked for years !!!. Why? Standards. You all heard it come out as soon as RTB joined, the expectations lifted, and players were actually nervous about what the new coach would think of them. Humans are predictable, and most will take the path of least resistance, and do only what is asked or expected of them. If the coach doesn't expect much of you, guess what he gets.

The most basic human need is acceptance. Guess what players deliver if the coach DEMANDS the highest standard of effort, application and professionalism as the basis for their acceptance into the playing group? Drafting and trading deliver you the raw materials for a team, and yes, they are important. But all the kids getting into the AFL have some level of talent, whether or not they reach their full potential and get to fully exploit that talent is entirely a result of the environment they enter after the draft or trade period.

What moves we make this trade period, and which players we select with our eventual draft picks are only part of the equation. How we develop those playing talents and then how we chose to deploy those assets (game plan) are all part of the picture. We need to get it right across the board, and having seen the improvement this year, I am prepared to back the new leadership in their choices. That means that, as an example, if they decide that Howard is tradeable as the benefit of incoming draft picks helps improve our midfield, and the resultant improvement there offsets any detriment to our defence, then I will back them. This is a new regime, and what happened in the past, painful as it may be, is completely irrelevant. It is glaringly obvious that you need to keep playing finals to eventually break through and win the big one. We need to build with that in mind, and if that means developing a list for the next decade around Mitch, Pou, Marcus, NWM, King, etc, then so be it......

We can do that and still be trying to win a flag in the near future, they're not mutually exclusive.......

 

[bird_man]

I only watched the first few minutes and didn't notice him.

Collingwood have 13 left from 2017 and they are mostly top tier players. Grundy, Aish and Treloar are still quality at other clubs too. Keefe could end up with a flag this year as well. It is along time but our list turn over is quite extreme. We moved a lot of GOPs out to replace with GOPs.

We don't have many left from that side because the list was no good

 

[Diehard Saint]

There's a lot of pissing and moaning on here about trades and draft selections and selling players out cheap and then watching them hit their straps at their new club, all while seemingly missing the glaringly obvious - DEVELOPMENT!!

Ours has sucked for years !!!. Why? Standards. You all heard it come out as soon as RTB joined, the expectations lifted, and players were actually nervous about what the new coach would think of them. Humans are predictable, and most will take the path of least resistance, and do only what is asked or expected of them. If the coach doesn't expect much of you, guess what he gets.

The most basic human need is acceptance. Guess what players deliver if the coach DEMANDS the highest standard of effort, application and professionalism as the basis for their acceptance into the playing group? Drafting and trading deliver you the raw materials for a team, and yes, they are important. But all the kids getting into the AFL have some level of talent, whether or not they reach their full potential and get to fully exploit that talent is entirely a result of the environment they enter after the draft or trade period.

What moves we make this trade period, and which players we select with our eventual draft picks are only part of the equation. How we develop those playing talents and then how we chose to deploy those assets (game plan) are all part of the picture. We need to get it right across the board, and having seen the improvement this year, I am prepared to back the new leadership in their choices. That means that, as an example, if they decide that Howard is tradeable as the benefit of incoming draft picks helps improve our midfield, and the resultant improvement there offsets any detriment to our defence, then I will back them.

I don't believe we are missing the glaringly obvious ...many on here have said it for years.

Acres...we've said plenty about
Battle's wasted year on the wing
probably quite a few others I've since forgotten who were never developed at Sandy.

 

[bird_man]

TBH, Membrey was a delisted free agent thanks to the Swans. So you can't really give Ameet credit for that.

We recruited Membrey.the only reason he was delisted by Sydney was a good will gesture so he could get to us and not have to go through the PSD as we weren't going to give up a good draft pick for him.

 

[saintmike65]

You can't do quick rebuilds.
You need to keep drafting , keep the good , get rid of the bad.
If you manage to snag a couple of keepers each year you have 22 players after 11 years.
If you trade in a 26 year old , you need to replace him in 4 years ( or more, Saints have been too quick at replacing their older players ). Did we get value from Carlisle?
If you bring in a 28 year old DFA you need to replace him in a couple of years.
If you replace your trades and DFA's you probably can't draft enough to replace them, so you need to get more DFA's or trades.

2011: Ross Webster 2
2012: 0
2013: Billings* 1
2014: McKenzie , Sinclair 2
2015: Gresham* 1
2016: Battle, Marshall 2
2017: Coffield, Clark* Paton 3
2018: King , Wilkie 2
2019: Byrnes 1
2020: Highmore* Allison** 2
2021: Wanganeen-Milera , Owens , Windhager, Heath** , Sharman. 5
2022: Phillipou, Van Es*, Hotton*, Keeler** , Hayes 5

*Future in doubt
** not played AFL yet.

Our drafting actually improved in 2011, compared to the five years previous.
2021 has potential to be the best draft since the DalSanto, Joey, Ball draft.
Odds are that not all of Van Es, Hotton, Keeler, Hayes will make the grade, though it would be nice.

You take someone like Stocker, and unless his development has been completely messed up by his previous club ( and most are professionals ), you'll get what you see, and maybe find a better use for him in a different role. Odds are he's not going to become a big star. ( I think Sydney's Kennedy, is the last one i can think of that moved on and went full superstar ).

We only have one untried developing mid, and we'll struggle to find a lot of promise in this draft.

A combination of drafting and trading are important…this off season vital

 

[The Punter]

We recruited Membrey.the only reason he was delisted by Sydney was a good will gesture so he could get to us and not have to go through the PSD as we weren't going to give up a good draft pick for him.

And the only reason he left Sydney was Goodes went around again in 2015. Thanks Sydney for that.

 

[Saintbloke]

And the only reason he left Sydney was Goodes went around again in 2015. Thanks Sydney for that.

True

 

[Sun Ra]

In reading the various articles about Ron Barassi in the past couple of days, I found this quote quite interesting:

Barassi’s recipe for transforming clubs became clear in *The Coach too.

“Any club worth its salt will clean out its no-hopers ... you’ve got to weed out people who breed an atmosphere of non-professionalism. They’re there for the bloody joke, for the social life, for the prestige. They are not there to win,” Barassi said.

*The Coach, John Powers’ seminal book on North Melbourne’s march to a flag under Barassi in 1977

Think this recipe remains relevant.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We recruited Membrey.the only reason he was delisted by Sydney was a good will gesture so he could get to us and not have to go through the PSD as we weren't going to give up a good draft pick for him.

He requested us because he wasnt getting a game there due to Goodes playing on. The above ensured we didn't have to pay a lot to get him, as you said.

My point, therefore, is that it wasn't to Ameet's credit that we got him for next to nothing. It was largely thanks to Sydney for doing the decent thing by him.

On that note, I wonder how Tim is doing. Hopefully OK.

 

[BrutThough]

He requested us because he wasnt getting a game there due to Goodes playing on. The above ensured we didn't have to pay a lot to get him, as you said.

My point, therefore, is that it wasn't to Ameet's credit that we got him for next to nothing. It was largely thanks to Sydney for doing the decent thing by him.

On that note, I wonder how Tim is doing. Hopefully OK.

We would have taken him pick 1 in the preseason draft so Sydney's favour just allowed him to start training a few weeks earlier rather than changed what we paid for him.

 

[StCicatriz]

Lethlean arrived in 2018.

Most of what is being whined preceded his appointment.

I suppose you can disagree with turning pick 6 into 5 players who have been in best the 22 for extended periods since 2019 but that is very debatable IMO.

Hanners for a 2nd & pick downgrade was a fail.

What else?

Boards don’t approve list management decision outside of massive deals with significant TPP impact (like DeGoey) or controversial targets (like DeGoey).

Lethlean was against the biggest fk up of his time, the ridiculous extension of Ratts last year. That falls firmly in the lap of the former CEO.

richo was finnis too right?

 

[Coconut_twirl]

My point is that he wasn’t given the time. Some players take a little longer than other to develop and it wasn’t as if we were blessed with so much talent at the time.
Also, I suppose, the way it was done - given up last minutes as steak knives on demand from Bell who screwed us for as much as he could get.

And I’m afraid that will happen if we let Coffield go too.

Could Hunter Clark be another late bloomer just like Acres?

 

[Coconut_twirl]

Ben Long isn't very good.

We got a great deal getting a second rounder for him. He was a fringe player at St Kilda and remains average at thr Suns

That was an absolute steal for the Saints to pull that trade off. Long would be lucky to net pick 50 this year.

 

[StCicatriz]

In reading the various articles about Ron Barassi in the past couple of days, I found this quote quite interesting:

Barassi’s recipe for transforming clubs became clear in *The Coach too.

“Any club worth its salt will clean out its no-hopers ... you’ve got to weed out people who breed an atmosphere of non-professionalism. They’re there for the bloody joke, for the social life, for the prestige. They are not there to win,” Barassi said.

*The Coach, John Powers’ seminal book on North Melbourne’s march to a flag under Barassi in 1977

Think this recipe remains relevant.

100%

 

[Coconut_twirl]

Wouldn’t mind it actually.
Giants / Lions GF - what a riot.
AFL will go into mourning.

AFL headquarters would be celebrating with that. They love the northern clubs.

 

[StCicatriz]

There's a lot of pissing and moaning on here about trades and draft selections and selling players out cheap and then watching them hit their straps at their new club, all while seemingly missing the glaringly obvious - DEVELOPMENT!!

Ours has sucked for years !!!. Why? Standards. You all heard it come out as soon as RTB joined, the expectations lifted, and players were actually nervous about what the new coach would think of them. Humans are predictable, and most will take the path of least resistance, and do only what is asked or expected of them. If the coach doesn't expect much of you, guess what he gets.

The most basic human need is acceptance. Guess what players deliver if the coach DEMANDS the highest standard of effort, application and professionalism as the basis for their acceptance into the playing group? Drafting and trading deliver you the raw materials for a team, and yes, they are important. But all the kids getting into the AFL have some level of talent, whether or not they reach their full potential and get to fully exploit that talent is entirely a result of the environment they enter after the draft or trade period.

What moves we make this trade period, and which players we select with our eventual draft picks are only part of the equation. How we develop those playing talents and then how we chose to deploy those assets (game plan) are all part of the picture. We need to get it right across the board, and having seen the improvement this year, I am prepared to back the new leadership in their choices. That means that, as an example, if they decide that Howard is tradeable as the benefit of incoming draft picks helps improve our midfield, and the resultant improvement there offsets any detriment to our defence, then I will back them. This is a new regime, and what happened in the past, painful as it may be, is completely irrelevant. It is glaringly obvious that you need to keep playing finals to eventually break through and win the big one. We need to build with that in mind, and if that means developing a list for the next decade around Mitch, Pou, Marcus, NWM, King, etc, then so be it......

We can do that and still be trying to win a flag in the near future, they're not mutually exclusive.......

how many have hit their straps at their new club though...

whilst i dont disagree development needed fixing the problem is our drafting and recruitment has also been poor. so its not a singlular focus but instead an improvement across all areas that needed fixing

 

[Diehard Saint]

Could Hunter Clark be another late bloomer just like Acres?

Hope so. He has a much more professional coaching and development set up at the club than Acres did.
And to give Clark his due, his horrific injuries would have set him back a lot.
Will be interesting to see what shape he comes back in for pre-season

 

[SaintsSeptember]

In reading the various articles about Ron Barassi in the past couple of days, I found this quote quite interesting:

Barassi’s recipe for transforming clubs became clear in *The Coach too.

“Any club worth its salt will clean out its no-hopers ... you’ve got to weed out people who breed an atmosphere of non-professionalism. They’re there for the bloody joke, for the social life, for the prestige. They are not there to win,” Barassi said.

*The Coach, John Powers’ seminal book on North Melbourne’s march to a flag under Barassi in 1977

Think this recipe remains relevant.

Saints did that.......about 25 years later.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Hope so. He has a much more professional coaching and development set up at the club than Acres did.
And to give Clark his due, his horrific injuries would have set him back a lot.
Will be interesting to see what shape he comes back in for pre-season

He might come back with Spaghettoni arms.

 

[gringo2011]

Lethlean arrived in 2018.

Most of what is being whined preceded his appointment.

I suppose you can disagree with turning pick 6 into 5 players who have been in best the 22 for extended periods since 2019 but that is very debatable IMO.

Hanners for a 2nd & pick downgrade was a fail.

What else?

Boards don’t approve list management decision outside of massive deals with significant TPP impact (like DeGoey) or controversial targets (like DeGoey).

Lethlean was against the biggest fk up of his time, the ridiculous extension of Ratts last year. That falls firmly in the lap of the former CEO.

Was paid to review the list and moved on players to top up and follow his list vision. Overpaid for Hill, Howard and Hanners. Gave up similar level players for nearly nothing. His whole plan was to build through trades and FA, then when the NGA kids fell in our lap he rips up the plan and starts again going back to the draft where he should have been the first time. He's an absolute turnip dressed up as a marinated artichoke.

We've turned over 32 players off our 2017 list and we'll probably only have a few left in another 2 years. 10 players left. Sinclair, Steele, Marshall and Battle probably the only ones 100% unlikely to be gone in 2 or 3 years and it sounds like we aren't even against trading a couple of them. If the list is that bad and it's mostly in Lethlean's time and his list build why do you think he's not responsible?

 

[gringo2011]

There's a lot of pissing and moaning on here about trades and draft selections and selling players out cheap and then watching them hit their straps at their new club, all while seemingly missing the glaringly obvious - DEVELOPMENT!!

Ours has sucked for years !!!. Why? Standards. You all heard it come out as soon as RTB joined, the expectations lifted, and players were actually nervous about what the new coach would think of them. Humans are predictable, and most will take the path of least resistance, and do only what is asked or expected of them. If the coach doesn't expect much of you, guess what he gets.

The most basic human need is acceptance. Guess what players deliver if the coach DEMANDS the highest standard of effort, application and professionalism as the basis for their acceptance into the playing group? Drafting and trading deliver you the raw materials for a team, and yes, they are important. But all the kids getting into the AFL have some level of talent, whether or not they reach their full potential and get to fully exploit that talent is entirely a result of the environment they enter after the draft or trade period.

What moves we make this trade period, and which players we select with our eventual draft picks are only part of the equation. How we develop those playing talents and then how we chose to deploy those assets (game plan) are all part of the picture. We need to get it right across the board, and having seen the improvement this year, I am prepared to back the new leadership in their choices. That means that, as an example, if they decide that Howard is tradeable as the benefit of incoming draft picks helps improve our midfield, and the resultant improvement there offsets any detriment to our defence, then I will back them. This is a new regime, and what happened in the past, painful as it may be, is completely irrelevant. It is glaringly obvious that you need to keep playing finals to eventually break through and win the big one. We need to build with that in mind, and if that means developing a list for the next decade around Mitch, Pou, Marcus, NWM, King, etc, then so be it......

We can do that and still be trying to win a flag in the near future, they're not mutually exclusive.......

It's a bit of everything including development but fundamentally we just ****ed up drafting. Our whole footy department spend was comically bad though and competing with clubs that maximise everything is hard but top talent tends to rise in any environment. I heard James Brayshaw saying that they were so broke at North that Dannielle Laidley had one full time assistant and 2 part time and that was their staff and still got the to a prelim.

I always said that you can't run an austerity campaign inside a pro sporting club unless you want to make yourself shit. If you can't sort through your talent pool to assess it and work through skills and other deficiencies you can't maximise what you do have. You stay in austerity for too long and standards and ambition drops and it takes years to dig your way out. Finnis is still my number one enemy.

 

[gringo2011]

AFL headquarters would be celebrating with that. They love the northern clubs.

The AFLs ideal would be Collingwood or Carton against Lions/GWS. Someone to pay while hyping the northerners.

 

[gringo2011]

That was an absolute steal for the Saints to pull that trade off. Long would be lucky to net pick 50 this year.

The Suns under Dew were a complete ****ing disaster. They sold a high potential player to Geelong and gave them a high first round pick. If they'd just offered him around free they would have got rid of him.

 

[gringo2011]

We don't have many left from that side because the list was no good

Probably true but we didn't go back and draft quality under Lethlean. We paid up big for equally as shit players but on mega contracts at huge cost as far as draft picks goes. I reckon we wasted 4 years under Lethlean's list architecture. It was high risk and he stuffed it up.