List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[gringo2011]

Hypothetically, if we weren’t getting Ryan what are the realistic targets in the small forward market?

Jesse Motlop
I am a big Mcqueery fan.
Rosas

GWS have a couple in development who can't get a game. They jumped on Phoenix Gothard earlier than expected and I heard someone suggesting that Harvey Thomas looks like he has elite small forward potential. Might have been David King. He's played pretty consistently at AFL level though.

I really rate Wardius for them too. He's somewhere between Snags and Sharman though so not sure we need him. Too good to play VFL every week still.

 

[gringo2011]

What I think has been important is letting him back himself in.

Let's face it, Nas has been a turnover merchant at times. Not everything has come together when he's gone for the big play. He keeps trying it on though, and it's starting to work more and more. I think the wrong coach may have tried to squash that a little and had him play within himself a bit.

Compare Nas's fearlessness to the like of a Jack Billings. A player with skills (yes I know Nas is on another level) but never really the courage to try and take a game by the scruff of the neck.

All the misses along the way have contributed to Nas's hits. I'm glad he was given the freedom to be fearless.

Yeah, he's given licence to go for the insanely difficult kicks. Lyon is very structured but he has always had a few guys with licence to do the special stuff too.

Worth listening to Phil Davis talking about Nas on SEN yesterday. Said Whitfield is allowed that same freedom at GWS. Gets to pick off the brave kick that slices the field open.

 

[PJays]

So assumedly if we win the flag with TDK as Norm Smith medalist you won't celebrate?.......

Oh dear

That's like asking...

"If TDK doesn't perform like we hope, instead being seen as the most overpaid player in the comp, will you rip up your St Kilda membership and buy a Geelong one instead?"

 

[Ads734]

Not sure who developed him but whoever it was did a good job. That said he was very good very quickly so a fair bit is probably natural talent.

These guys definitely deserve all the credit for making him feel at home though. Wood and Hill particularly have been father figures to him.

In terms of moving him to HB, taking kick ins, developing his physical strength.(which imo is incredibly underated) like he hardly ever gets pushed off the ball.

But also in terms of this year. Just letting him lose.

 

[gringo2011]

Further to my thoughts on our training, Wilson didn't exactly set things alight. Definitely second year blues for him. Lost pretty much every one on one contest against other mids.

His job as a second year player is to develop, but being trained as an inside mid isn't focussing on his strengths. I guess that's the point, to improve on weaknesses.

The worry is that we will Jack Billings him and not play him to his strengths, but plenty of years left before we worry about that.

He's got more strings to his bow than Billings. Billings was really ideally a high half forward without a lot of pace or tricks. At a better run club with a better side around him he might have been good but limitations were there in his perfectionism and neurosis too.

 

[gringo2011]

Campigli 189cm, whatever you wanna call that

He doesn't play like a livewire small forward. More a smaller medium forward.

 

[Red White Black]

I see Liam Ryan

1

Liam Ryan

Age

29

Ht

181cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

2.7

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

1.3

5star

D

9.9

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.6

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

11.4

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.6

5star

as a two birds, one stone recruit

In April Lyon stated that Lance Collard could be a premier small forward in 4 years time. As a WA boy Ryan is most likely his biggest idol. I'd imagine Ryan can super track his development along with the other First nation boys and provide a new spark up forward for us at the same time

 

[gringo2011]

I didn't say Butler is better. Just said that Ryan is not better. They are the same age, same size, kick the same amount of goals and get the same amount of touches. Ryan slightly ahead in marks, Butler slightly ahead in pressure and tackles.

Ryan has more flashy highlights but his production is basically the same.

A bit hard to tell from stats. Tsatis and Bont might have similar stats in a match for example but you aren't getting the same level of output. Butler's best is amazing but he can be non existent at times.

 

[gringo2011]

So we're recruiting a 29 year old small forward because he used to take hangers back in 2018?

He's high impact. He wins clearance when needed and is playing with no-one to take heat off him at the moment.

 

[gringo2011]

Because we have wasted picks on other clubs retirees for decades, what has that achieved?

Even Macrae is already looking like a poor investment given last year's draft strength and what he is getting paid.

To be a competitive side we need a balance of young old and a bunch somewhere in between. You can carry around 4 players under 50 games before it starts to hurt consistency and competitiveness.

Wilkie, Howard, Sinclair potentially Marshall, Hill, Wood, Macrae, Webster, Steele are the best 22 old guys.

Clarke, Higgins, King, Sharman, Byrnes, Henry, Hall, Wanganeen-Milera, LOC, Windhager, Owens and Hammer are our middle brigade. Wilson and Phillipou are already on 40ish games so should start to bump into that next rung soon.

Garcia, Travaglia, Dodson, Tauru, Boxshall, Hastie, Collard etc and new recruits will fill out the bottom rungs.

Add Aleer, TDK, Ryan etc and we are starting to fatten out a decent best 22. The spots for youth are going to thin out a bit if we are going for finals.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Who still hasn't been offered a new contract now that those boys signed yesterday , The rest must be getting worried

 

[karaoke]

Gawn’s team won a premiership.
And he was a huge part in it.

Clark Keating was huge in Lions 3-peat.

Struggled through injury at end of a few of those seasons, but club always worked to get him fit & firing for the finals.

 

[thekizzler]

Clark Keating was huge in Lions 3-peat.

Struggled through injury at end of a few of those seasons, but club always worked to get him fit & firing for the finals.

The whole argument that you don't need a quality ruck to win a flag is extremely simplistic - almost sheep-like.

It is true that teams have won the premiership with an average ruck being supported by an absolute top-shelf midfield.

Why not try to combine a top-shelf ruck and build a top-shelf midfield?

 

[gringo2011]

Now this kinda disagreement is the best suited here.
Civil & not too serious
the over & over again, a tad mean
Hats off.

I don't know why people pile on other people's opinions and ridicule them. You don't rate it, argue why not. The ones that claim to be positive are sniping little bitches mostly. Most of them delight in setting other posters off rather than arguing a point that they disagree with.

Macrae hasn't moved us back up the ladder and it might be a good or bad pick up depending on what you see the year like. If it was a development year 24 games into Garcia or another kid might have been a better investment. I rate Macrae but he's possibly not going to be in the best 22 in a year or two if our kids keep developing. Maybe he's trained them on the job though.

Opinions are a personal point of view. Nothing is black and white. Most people on here were denying that Richo and Trout were a problem until it was too hard to argue otherwise.

 

[heynow85]

Probably not worth repeating but Chicken Nixon thinks we might be into Shiel and an Oliver.

 

[The Punter]

Who still hasn't been offered a new contract now that those boys signed yesterday , The rest must be getting worried

McLennan, Schoenmaker, Boyd, Carroll, Webster, Windhager, Heath, Byrnes, Cordy, Jones.

AFL Out of Contract Players in 2025

List of AFL players coming out of contract at the end of 2025.

www.footywire.com

With TDK, Aleer and 1-2 more coming in, we very well may delist nine players. Another massive turnover of players.

 

[gringo2011]

Clark Keating was huge in Lions 3-peat.

Struggled through injury at end of a few of those seasons, but club always worked to get him fit & firing for the finals.

The absolute elite rucks make a difference but more sides have won flags with rudimentary rucks and a good system recently.

TDK is too much for what is a project player. It's a huge gamble that is either genius or a long term financial millstone. He could genuinely become the best ruck in footy but if he doesn't we are still paying him as the best.

If they let the rucks run up TDK is nearly the best suited to it in the game. If they lose the bounce it might alter the dominance of some rucks and suit others.

 

[gringo2011]

The whole argument that you don't need a quality ruck to win a flag is extremely simplistic - almost sheep-like.

It is true that teams have won the premiership with an average ruck being supported by an absolute top-shelf midfield.

Why not try to combine a top-shelf ruck and build a top-shelf midfield?

Richmond and Geelong had average rucks and okay midfields. Melbourne had both a gun ruck and elite midfield. I think there are heaps of different models but a system that works to bring your strengths to the front win you more than you lose.

 

[Anythings_sipposible]

The thing with Ryan is we don't need him to come in and kick 2 goals a game. 25-30 goals would be great. This could be our forward line if he comes in, and all are fit and firing:

Ryan Sharman Owens

Higgins King Marshall

Every player in there is an aerial threat, something we've been blatantly missing this last year, and most are dangerous on the ground as well. Also, every player there could kick a bag if they're left unattended or if they can pull a mismatch, and the more threats there are, the greater chance there is that someone like Ryan is getting that mismatch.

If our aim is to play finals next year, and if the we can turn say a future 2nd, a future 3rd, and a player like Heath into say Aleer and Ryan, then I'm all for it.

 

[gringo2011]

If you are putting your opinion in a public space continually, it's going to get critiqued, scrutinised, discussed and possibly ridiculed. It's a reality of places of discussion.

Opinions can be very black and white at times also - flat earthers say hello.

If you can't deal with the heat, then don't put your opinion out there in a public space.

This applies to everyone. End of story. Let's continue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Macrae wasn't really designed to move us up the ladder. He was recruited to help replace the unfortunate retirement of Brad Crouch and help sustain our midfield performance while the likes of Garcia, Boxhall and Phillipou come on.

I really fail to see how he has not done that - for me, he has exceeded expectation based on what we paid and his performances at the Bulldogs last season.

As for Macrae not being best 22, I hope that's the case back end of 2026 and 2027. It would be amazing if we had four or five players go well past him - that would mean our midfield is flying.

Who gives a **** about what they post. Argue why they are wrong, don't go the man. The pile on is cowardly too.

I think we thought we'd stay similar to last year and Macrae made sense at the time. The midfield looks on track finally.

 

[gringo2011]

The thing with Ryan is we don't need him to come in and kick 2 goals a game. 25-30 goals would be great. This could be our forward line if he comes in, and all are fit and firing:

Ryan Sharman Owens

Higgins King Marshall

Every player in there is an aerial threat, something we've been blatantly missing this last year, and most are dangerous on the ground as well. Also, every player there could kick a bag if they're left unattended or if they can pull a mismatch, and the more threats there are, the greater chance there is that someone like Ryan is getting that mismatch.

If our aim is to play finals next year, and if the we can turn say a future 2nd, a future 3rd, and a player like Heath into say Aleer and Ryan, then I'm all for it.

The ball comes out of our forward line way too easily or gets cut off. Ryan will contest a lot of entries even if he doesn't win them all. That alone is a benefit.

 

[TheJackal]

He's got more strings to his bow than Billings. Billings was really ideally a high half forward without a lot of pace or tricks. At a better run club with a better side around him he might have been good but limitations were there in his perfectionism and neurosis too.

I dont agree that Darcy has more strings to his bow. Its impossible to compare the two though, Billings came in with an elite kick/skills, marking (for his size) and footy awareness.

Darcy has elite endurance and speed as his main weapons. If anything, this year's 2nd year blues are probably an indicator of why he went top 20 and not top 10.

His deficiencies however, are easier to work on than JBs were. We probably just need more patience with him which is a confusing thing to say considering how he exploded onto the scene.

 

[thekizzler]

Richmond and Geelong had average rucks and okay midfields. Melbourne had both a gun ruck and elite midfield. I think there are heaps of different models but a system that works to bring your strengths to the front win you more than you lose.

What you said bolded is pretty damn obvious, but it is right.

Narrowing in on not needing a ruckman is simplistic.

As for Geelong, I would love an 'okay' midfield of Danger, Selwood, Guthrie with Atkins backing them up lol.

 

[thekizzler]

I dont agree that Darcy has more strings to his bow. Its impossible to compare the two though, Billings came in with an elite kick/skills, marking (for his size) and footy awareness.

Darcy has elite endurance and speed as his main weapons. If anything, this year's 2nd year blues are probably an indicator of why he went top 20 and not top 10.

His deficiencies however, are easier to work on than JBs were. We probably just need more patience with him which is a confusing thing to say considering how he exploded onto the scene.

He just lacks so much confidence with his decision making - particularly his kicking.

I saw Sinclair noticeably pissed off last week after Wilson didn't try to hit him up in the corridor with a moderately tough kick.

I think this is just a product of all the kicking turnovers we saw from him earlier in the season. Confidence is shot in this regard.

Now he is just taking the safe option.

The coaches should be able to rebuild his confidence.

If I was Darcy, I would be modelling everything I do on Sam Walsh (except the injury history lol).

They have similar attributes and the best version of Darcy is a similar player to Walsh, IMO.

 

[billings2paddy]

The ball comes out of our forward line way too easily or gets cut off. Ryan will contest a lot of entries even if he doesn't win them all. That alone is a benefit.

Ryan's efforts the last few years have been deplorable.
Can't blame him but, it remains to be seen if he can get back in form.
Personally, I think he is cooked.