List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[gringo2011]

The money isn't the issue. We have plenty of cash to spend on Windy if needed. The issue is we don't want to overpay him based on his output to date. If we start overpaying players, we end up stuffing our cap again.

You have severe cognitive dissonance if you can't see that we are over paying in the extreme for some and then getting pissy about $150k for others. One minute we have more than we can ever spend and then we have nowhere near enough to keep them.

My sum is that if Windhager was at another club he'd cost a lot more to get to leave his existing club and we can't afford to step backwards next year. These are the type of contracts that we should meet a little bit in the middle and get signed. Creating bad blood over some small fry money isn't worth it.

Paying Billings, Acres and Dunstan a lot didn't stop us chasing guys like Hanners, the issue was that we didn't develop them or their talent tapped out below their wages. Windhager is tracking very similar to Jack Steele at the same age. I think he probably ends up a solid Cerra level player with the potential to be a A grader still there.

Anyway I think he'll end up staying on a bit less than he asks for hopefully. He's kind of got us cornered though.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

i havent watched Ryan a lot,but butler is not a good example,trying millionaire moves all the time,refuses to just play the ball,drops marks on purpose because lining up from 20-30 is not his brand,picking it up and running around to create the spectacular is what he tries all the time,he costs us goals

im not overjoyed with the ryan pursuit,but butler is no example to use to oppose it,if the club think ryan is right then im happy to back them,they want naz after 2 years as much as i do & this shot at a flag is probably my last above ground,im 57,i cant afford to be negative,so if ryan arrives im backing him in,i already know butler is not it

Yet their career production is basically identical. Do you want another Butler (who tackles and pressures less but takes an extra mark or two per game)?

 

[True Believer]

i havent watched Ryan a lot,but butler is not a good example,trying millionaire moves all the time,refuses to just play the ball,drops marks on purpose because lining up from 20-30 is not his brand,picking it up and running around to create the spectacular is what he tries all the time,he costs us goals

Dropping marks on purpose because of his brand?!

Seriously mods, can we have some sort of qualification before people are allowed to post on here?

Nothing too demanding, just a few revealing questions, like:

1) Is the moon made of cheese?

2) Are the government stealing your thoughts?

3) Is the USA president a shape-shifting lizard person?

4) Was the Australian TV series "Sea Patrol" a documentary?

Just something to weed out those with one wheel clearly stuck in the sand.......

 

[gringo2011]

Why on earth would North want to spend big money on yet another midfielder?

He's different to most of theirs and adaptable. His best position is probably on a wing. Think he could make a massive difference to them. They have plenty who can contest the ball but not a lot on the outside.

 

[gringo2011]

You know the Kangas list better than I do.

But giving up close to a first rounder for Windy and offering him a decent sized pay packet, not sure that's the way forward for your club.

It's shit draft. They'd be much better getting him in and improving next year than picking up a project tall in a soft draft. He could genuinely be A grade in the next 12 months.

 

[jimmytigs]

Dropping marks on purpose because of his brand?!

Seriously mods, can we have some sort of qualification before people are allowed to post on here?

Nothing too demanding, just a few revealing questions, like:

1) Is the moon made of cheese?

2) Are the government stealing your thoughts?

3) Is the USA president a shape-shifting lizard person?

4) Was the Australian TV series "Sea Patrol" a documentary?

Just something to weed out those with one wheel clearly stuck in the sand.......

do you watch our games?first it was the constant toe poke attempts a couple years ago,this year when he has played its the dropping easy marks in order to play on,costs us goals,simple,no need for the crap,i got vaxxed

watch a butler game,hasnt been too many this year

 

[XhazzafootyX]

Wonder why dimma doesn’t rate sam Flanders

 

[jimmytigs]

Yet their career production is basically identical. Do you want another Butler (who tackles and pressures less but takes an extra mark or two per game)?

i would rather back the guys paid to make those decisions re ryan and i already know butler is a show pony highlight reel seeker and is cooked,contracted so one more year as hopefully depth

 

[Saints43]

The contract has consistently, everywhere, in all media, been reported as $1.7-$1.8m a year.

And total of $12.5 over 7 was mentioned on numerous occasions.

It's never, anywhere to my knowledge, been reported as $1.3-$1.4.

If it has, please share the source.

This week on gettable, they said 8 years with the majority of years $1.8 then decreasing towards the end. In the case, at least 2026-2030 are $1.8mil. Perhaps average ends lower, but St Kilda's still saddled with $1.8 for at least 5 years.

It's possible the marketing fund could be utilised- which means it's not a $1.8m under the cap, it's say $1.5m with 300k for off-field activities.

But I haven't heard any suggestion that's the case, so the baseline assumption should be that the consistently reported figures relate to his playing contract.

The wider point here is that whether St Kilda should sign TDK depends on the value.

If good value, yes. If poor value, no.
 
We can have views about him as a player and what figures would represent value.

And no one knows the figures for absolute certain.

But, you're all arguing with me saying "you don't know for sure, you shouldn't be criticising it". The same applies back.

You don't know for sure, and if knowing for certain is the precondition to having an opinion against, it should also be the precondition on having an opinion in favour.

I think everybody agrees that TDK is going to be overpaid unless he is a top 30? player in the league.
Some see benefits off- field (reputation, membership, destination for trades) that you don't agree with.
As Ross would say, we'll all know in the fullness of time.
Hopefully he lives up to the potential we're buying and Carlton supporters die a bit with every game he plays like they did with Kennedy.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Wonder why dimma doesn’t rate sam Flanders

Because he's stupid and sexy

 

[stavro#4]

The contract has consistently, everywhere, in all media, been reported as $1.7-$1.8m a year.

And total of $12.5 over 7 was mentioned on numerous occasions.

It's never, anywhere to my knowledge, been reported as $1.3-$1.4.

If it has, please share the source.

This week on gettable, they said 8 years with the majority of years $1.8 then decreasing towards the end. In the case, at least 2026-2030 are $1.8mil. Perhaps average ends lower, but St Kilda's still saddled with $1.8 for at least 5 years.

It's possible the marketing fund could be utilised- which means it's not a $1.8m under the cap, it's say $1.5m with 300k for off-field activities.

But I haven't heard any suggestion that's the case, so the baseline assumption should be that the consistently reported figures relate to his playing contract.

The wider point here is that whether St Kilda should sign TDK depends on the value.

If good value, yes. If poor value, no.
 
We can have views about him as a player and what figures would represent value.

And no one knows the figures for absolute certain.

But, you're all arguing with me saying "you don't know for sure, you shouldn't be criticising it". The same applies back.

You don't know for sure, and if knowing for certain is the precondition to having an opinion against, it should also be the precondition on having an opinion in favour.

Direct quote from this article

Andrew Bassat:

“Tom De Koning is not quite as high as has been represented and we don’t have him yet so he’s no part of our salary cap if that doesn’t happen,”

 

[stfan]

Wonder why dimma doesn’t rate sam Flanders

Doesen't rate, or just does not rate as highly as other mids he has to choose from the abundance of top shelf mids at the Suns?


Which at the Suns is only going to become even more so as in this years draft they will pick up two young mids who are rated Top 5/10 in the draft.

 

[gringo2011]

If you want to think relatively objectively

Band 1 compo for free agents is 900k/year over 5 years - so that puts it in the 1-18 range. Since that's the lowest tier of band 1, we'll say pick 18

Your offer to Windy is around 700k/year over 5 years (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong), but Windy is still 4 years younger than the minimum free agency age so he's still that developing player that is yet to reach high-paying levels. Kind of evens out imo but depends how you guys see it

Based off that, I'd say it'd have to be at least pick 20 (RICH early second) + a bit more

Look at the Caldwell deal. He got GWS pick 28 and they handed back pick 44 and 74. Probably a similar player at a similar point in their career.

Uncontracted players are worth whatever the clubs negotiate. There isn't an AFL guideline on value.

 

[Anythings_sipposible]

Direct quote from this article

Andrew Bassat:

“Tom De Koning is not quite as high as has been represented and we don’t have him yet so he’s no part of our salary cap if that doesn’t happen,”

I like that this admin is taking risks, unlike during the Richo and Ratten days, where we were too scared to draft obvious talent, lest we make the wrong decision.

I also like the types of risks we are taking. They're not stupid risks, like bringing in Andrew Lovett on the back of clearly biased character references. They're not desperate risks like bringing in a clearly busted Dan Hannerby. And they not cowardly risks, like the risk of not taking a risk on Christian Petracca because he doesn't make his bed, and because Tom Boyd cost a lot in trade.

For once, we are backing ourselves to improve, using the cap in a creative way, and making sure that our home grown talent is getting what they need and deserve. This is a good thing, and while it is a risk, as all things that change the status quo are, I would say the bigger risk would be to do nothing, and hope that our fortunes change.

 

[gringo2011]

Issue isn’t tenure. It’s money.

The 2 year deal is our offering that if he becomes the player deserving that money he gets paid at the end of 2027

If we have a massive pool of cap space surely we just front end it so that at year 3 and 4 he's getting scraps. Then awe can trade him out on minimum chips which even as B grade depth would be extremely attractive to another club. I can't see him falling below a GOP level at a minimum. Those are the type every list needs a few of.

 

[gringo2011]

I like that this admin is taking risks, unlike during the Richo and Ratten days, where we were too scared to draft obvious talent, lest we make the wrong decision.

I also like the types of risks we are taking. They're not stupid risks, like bringing in Andrew Lovett on the back of clearly biased character references. They're not desperate risks like bringing in a clearly busted Dan Hannerby. And they not cowardly risks, like the risk of not taking a risk on Christian Petracca because he doesn't make his bed, and because Tom Boyd cost a lot in trade.

For once, we are backing ourselves to improve, using the cap in a creative way, and making sure that our home grown talent is getting what they need and deserve. This is a good thing, and while it is a risk, as all things that change the status quo are, I would say the bigger risk would be to do nothing, and hope that our fortunes change.

When didn't we take risks? We usually took risks and didn't do the baseline stuff to go with it in that era. If we'd balanced the drafting with going after gambles on broken down spuds on maximum value we would have been a lot closer.

Our issue was that we took gambles that didn't pay off and our drafting was so far below average that we were bleeding from both ends.

 

[sasaint]

Isn't it sickening seeing Collingwood chairing Timmy off on his 200th

Nope. I thought it was classy of the Pies to recogize his contribution to the game, mostly with the Saints.

 

[gringo2011]

I’ve seen him play 1 game where I thought gee he’s going to be a player, it was against Geelong.

Other than that when I’ve watched he’s been worse than ordinary, the past three weeks all shockers. I haven’t seen much to indicate he can play the intercept roll.

Someone at the club obviously thinks he can hence or offer to him, until he actually signs with us he’s fair game and I call them as I see them. If one of the wild rumours is true and we land SDK what would we do with Aleer.

If and when he signs then let’s hope it’s new club, new coach, new game plan and new Aleer.

Yeah, he's genuinely a fair way below Caminiti at this point. He's a pure project player who probably best suited to a third tall role- that looks like the best role for most of our tall backs. I think we will need Howard to really step back up next year and probably chase a ready made tall back for 2027.

 

[gringo2011]

I can't literally see one person that wants Windhager to leave lol.

You are making stuff up again. As usual.

There is discussion about what would happen if he did leave, but everyone wants him to stay.

I want him to stay.

Plenty were saying good riddance if he doesn't want to play for less than he's offered elsewhere.

 

[Grav]

I know $1.7 has been bandied around for what we are offering TDK, but who came up with this figure first?
Was it one of the so called media experts & it just stuck or was it TDK’s manager, trying to get more out of Carlton? Very much doubt it was SOS or Gubby coming out & letting the world know, for all we know it might have been less.

 

[hangdog]

4.7 mill on an adjusted SC of 22.1 million (18.3 + 3.8). All contracts for the big money were front loaded saving 15% of Salary cap this year on those contracts.
King is only on 700k for the duration of his contract and may be less with performance triggers and KRA's. I am sure TDK is the same. Only guaranteed is NAZ on 2 million.
No contracts have any built in SC increases which are due in 2027, reason why we have so many contracted to then, but any over doesn't have any auto increases. Predicted to go up by to 21+million meaning 2.7 million to play with from 2027.
The $$$$ have been worked put brilliantly. Only spanner has been the NAZ breakout costing about a mill over 2 years.
Really no fears of a SC squeeze until at least 2028. Hopefully by then we are an entrenched finals 8 team and many successful teams have SC issues because there players get better.
Who knows, NAZ may leave and that automatically relieves 10% plus of the cap

If this extremely informative and well summarised post doesn't silence the salary cap doubters, i don't know what will

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Nope. I thought it was classy of the Pies to recogize his contribution to the game, mostly with the Saints.

I miss Timmy

 

[CaptainRisky]

The money isn't the issue. We have plenty of cash to spend on Windy if needed. The issue is we don't want to overpay him based on his output to date. If we start overpaying players, we end up stuffing our cap again.

Thanks list manager , FMD

 

[CaptainRisky]

Isn't it sickening seeing Collingwood chairing Timmy off on his 200th

Its still 200 games whether or not he played most for us , What's your problem with it

 

[CaptainRisky]

So you’re saying they weren’t overpaid?

That’s what we were discussing.

Righto , you are saying they were overpaided because they were spuds , A , they weren't spuds and B , maybe look in your own back yard as our team is going to end up paying way overs for TDK , Is he a spud too