List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[SaintsofSteel]

Last years Sam Flanders is better than this years Windhager.

Not sure what the story is with him this year.

Possibly but I would still chose Windy because I think long term he would provide more to the club than Flanders. Flanders comes across as a bit of a twit, Windy is an intelligent well respected young man who will become a club leader and drive standards.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

Or it comes with the territory. If he can't handle it it's probably not the right job for him. We are a critical juncture. Get things right and we rise up over the next few seasons. Get it wrong and it's potentially years in other mediocrity cycle.

He's dragging contracts out and so far waiting has bumped nearly every one of them much much higher. He's failed to attract the absolute elite players from other clubs and even Nas needed intervention from Bassat to get done.

We are celebrating him signing up the best player we've drafted in 20 years like that was exceptional for a list manager. He's making risky calls and copping it for them. I'm not sure the club would expect anything else. He'll be judged next year if we can push back up the ladder and if he gets it right he'll get the. praise for it.....or at least not bagged.

I would pay good money to see you run his performance review

 

[Diehard Saint]

Just get Bassat to take over dealing with Windhager like he did with Nas. Seemed to get shit done very quickly when he went over SOS' head.

You have absolutely no idea that happened.
They obviously worked together though. Which is how it should be.
Especially with so much on the line.

 

[hangdog]

I'll preface this by saying I want to keep him and would hope our offer has increased for him. But at the same time, we might be overstating his presence in the midfield recently. He's been playing wing and half back mainly, not full time midfield when not tagging.

Nas will be midfield every game next year. We've chosen to play Hugo in there ahead of him. We will play a fit Pou in there ahead of him. We've expressed a desire for Wilson and Boxhall to spend time there. Maybe Hall, Henry, even Higgins etc. If we have 2 rucks, maybe Owens gets more time around the midfield. Plus the two oldies floating around.

All this to say, maybe we believe we have enough similar types and that he's near his ceiling while believing others will match his output for cheaper? For a long time, we've called for list management to not overpay to keep B graders. Could that be what is finally happening with this situation?

Don't forget Liam O'Connell to become elite.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Yeah I think he ends up taking it. We seem to be pushing him out more than anything. Not sure I agree, we will ask for a first rounder though. Dursma does want out of there so maybe we ask for him

Why would we be pushing him out?
Has he had a falling out with someone?
Or we just dont rate the price tag that he wants?

 

[Diehard Saint]

I'll preface this by saying I want to keep him and would hope our offer has increased for him. But at the same time, we might be overstating his presence in the midfield recently. He's been playing wing and half back mainly, not full time midfield when not tagging.

Nas will be midfield every game next year. We've chosen to play Hugo in there ahead of him. We will play a fit Pou in there ahead of him. We've expressed a desire for Wilson and Boxhall to spend time there. Maybe Hall, Henry, even Higgins etc. If we have 2 rucks, maybe Owens gets more time around the midfield. Plus the two oldies floating around.

All this to say, maybe we believe we have enough similar types and that he's near his ceiling while believing others will match his output for cheaper? For a long time, we've called for list management to not overpay to keep B graders. Could that be what is finally happening with this situation?

Yes.
Back himself in for 2 years on what I’m sure will be a pretty good increase, and go from there.

 

[hangdog]

VFL Stats - Alex Dodson

vfl.aflmstats.com

He's played a total of 15 VFL games. In his third match he came in and had 18 touches 4 marks and kicked 1.2 against a really strong Bulldogs side playing as a forward.

Two games later plays some ruck and gets 17 touches and 17 hit outs as a ruck forward. Two games later backs that up with a nearly identical performance and then the next match kicks 4.1 from 19 touches.

Two games later he is dominant in his 12th game of footy with 29 disposals, 35 hit outs and scores 3.1.

Three games after that he has his absolute kick the door down game where we can't keep him out with 35 disposals which must be nearly a record for a tall at Sandy but also has 41 hit outs and 139 fantasy points. He's kicked 12.6 in his 15 matches and 151 hit-outs from very limited rucking opportunities.

This kid isn't just a good prospect. He is looking ridiculous. I can't remember seeing a tall kid look so good at such a young age. Apparently other clubs are already looking at him and he's making them look more and more. He's going to have them circling like sharks if he keeps it up.

Which makes Geelong's pick immediately before us all the more baffling. Taking Jacob Molier, who was the 2nd choice ruck at Sturt behind Dodson.

 

[stavro#4]

Just get Bassat to take over dealing with Windhager like he did with Nas. Seemed to get shit done very quickly when he went over SOS' head.

SOS invited Bassat along to those final meetings including going to Cairns/QLD

 

[stavro#4]

I would pay good money to see you run his performance review

Why?

Ross and Bassat have all praised the work of SOS.

Ben Williams was also very complimentary about his dealings with them.

Only Gringo and a select few think he has been an issue

 

[Diehard Saint]

Just been listening to Gerard W, Kane (yeah don't know why) banging on about the amount the Saints have paid NWM, including commentary that if he gets that much imagine what a good player would get!!!


FFS I reckon NWM is our x factor and damn happy that we have him still even with the $s we are forking out.

Seriously we can not win, develop a great player and still cop shit.

They then went on to say - goods clubs (citing Geelong) do not do what we have done.

We do not have the luxury of our own home ground that brings in millions, ability to grant cotton on franchises and farms outside of the club....but we should aspire to being a good club like Geelong.

Get fd...we are having a crack now, the list is getting legit and I for one am damn happy about it.

There was someone else, sounded like Hodge? I’m not sure, though who said we did exactly the right thing. And when we do start to go places we’ll attract, and keep, players for less than that. It wasn’t all doom and gloom - mainly just Kane as usual I think. Mentioned the 10 000 extra members who signed up too.

 

[Sully111]

Why?

Ross and Bassat have all praised the work of SOS.

Ben Williams was also very complimentary about his dealings with them.

Only Gringo and a select few think he has been an issue

I'm sure he was

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

Why?

Ross and Bassat have all praised the work of SOS.

Ben Williams was also very complimentary about his dealings with them.

Only Gringo and a select few think he has been an issue

because it would be funny af?

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Just been listening to Gerard W, Kane (yeah don't know why) banging on about the amount the Saints have paid NWM, including commentary that if he gets that much imagine what a good player would get!!!


FFS I reckon NWM is our x factor and damn happy that we have him still even with the $s we are forking out.

Seriously we can not win, develop a great player and still cop shit.

They then went on to say - goods clubs (citing Geelong) do not do what we have done.

We do not have the luxury of our own home ground that brings in millions, ability to grant cotton on franchises and farms outside of the club....but we should aspire to being a good club like Geelong.

Get fd...we are having a crack now, the list is getting legit and I for one am damn happy about it.

Geelong paid a relevantly high price for Jeremy Cameron & Patrick Dangerfield l would of thought.
Yeah, you can't take those people seriously.
Cornes is one of those small little fellas that need to rant & rave to get noticed.
And he's got a Punch & Judy looking head, the nose & chin?

 

[MightySaint]

I'd love to have a crack at Blight from the tigers. There's a lot to work with there.

 

[Remboy]

I know $1.7 has been bandied around for what we are offering TDK, but who came up with this figure first?
Was it one of the so called media experts & it just stuck or was it TDK’s manager, trying to get more out of Carlton? Very much doubt it was SOS or Gubby coming out & letting the world know, for all we know it might have been less.

My recollection is that the first mention of TDK’s was the total dollar value, $11.9 mill over seven years, not the dollar amount per year. People have just said 11.9/7 is 1.7 per year.
This conveniently overlooks the banked cap space, meaning we could pay him up to 3 mill in his first year, and the mentions of marketing, which could be as much as $300k (outside the cap), plus the natural increase in the salary cap, which would mean we could pay up to $1.5m in the last couple of years if we needed to.
But no, apparently we’re paying 20% of the cap on two players for the next 75 years.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

I really like Mutaz El Nour-Richmond vfl
At 192cm, he's only a 3rd tall back though,
which we don't really need.
And Jacob Kotchitzke could be good for our Vfl team next year
Actually both of them would be good.

 

[CaptainRisky]

They are just opinions. I certainly don't know all the facts. In the end, it's an opinion forum.

Well just wondering what part of your statement sounds like its an opinion piece , sounds like matter of fact post to me

The money isn't the issue. We have plenty of cash to spend on Windy if needed. The issue is we don't want to overpay him based on his output to date. If we start overpaying players, we end up stuffing our cap again.

 

[thekizzler]

Plenty were saying good riddance if he doesn't want to play for less than he's offered elsewhere.

That doesn't mean they want him to leave, chief.

They just agree with the club's valuation.

My comment is correct and still stands.

 

[SainterinSydney]

Well just wondering what part of your statement sounds like its an opinion piece , sounds like matter of fact post to me

The money isn't the issue. We have plenty of cash to spend on Windy if needed. The issue is we don't want to overpay him based on his output to date. If we start overpaying players, we end up stuffing our cap again.

Based on the information available, it's my opinion on what is happening. There is talk he wants $800k or thereabouts with a long contract.

 

[Joffaboy]

Agree to disagree

'Solid gets' don't equal $1m+ contracts in my book though (which is what fkd Carlton's cap)

It's absolute revisionism. The poster you responded to was all in on Carlton and the players they had brought in.

Also noticed that we are losing Dodson and after a week SoS is not up to it again.

There are some really Dunning Kruger dunderheads on this forum.

 

[gringo2011]

Well technically he was playing not as well with us as he is now, which was obviously misleading and deceptive conduct. We relied on that conduct when we didn't offer him an appropriate contract and have suffered loss and damage. Ben Long should be taken to the cleaners

We seemed to get impatient with him. He was going pretty well but we saw chasing him in as a way to get back into drafts. Good list managers are looking at where they project a few years down the track in a better side not current form.

He was never settled and never given consistent runs. I think that's the same as Windhager potentially. We lose him over $100k and then have to find something better at the draft or trade and still be in front without losing ground.

You are better to cut dead wood than cash in promising developing talent. Battle and Long were both in the age bracket we were severely short ion too. It makes holes down the road and in the short term. Windhager about to bump into that pool too. We can't afford one in one out, we need to have enough to challenge in the next few years.

 

[thekizzler]

There are hundreds of guys that are excellent VFL players but have limitations that stop them being serious AFL players. Ben Paton is a GOP at AFL level but as a small defender he's not overly quick, strong or elite at any one aspect of the game.

Dodson looks like he's an absolute unicorn. If Rory Lobb gets $1.2 million a season for being a tall and mobile player without a lot of elite aspects to his game it shoes how hard they are to find. Good ruck forwards are almost the hardest players to find in footy.

Plenty of promise with Dodson, sure. I'm pretty excited about him. Think he will be a gun for us.

But quoting VFL stats for an argument doesn't get me excited when there are so many players dominating VFL who can't make it in AFL.

It's just not a great measuring stick when spuds are dominating the competition left, right and centre.

We might as well take a look at that Jack Billings bloke. Dominant. VFL king.

 

[gringo2011]

It's absolute revisionism. The poster you responded to was all in on Carlton and the players they had brought in.

Also noticed that we are losing Dodson and after a week SoS is not up to it again.

There are some really Dunning Kruger dunderheads on this forum.

Well none of that has any consistency other than a bunch of gaslighting nonsense designed to sound smarter than you are.

 

[gringo2011]

Plenty of promise with Dodson, sure. I'm pretty excited about him. Think he will be a gun for us.

But quoting VFL stats for an argument doesn't get me excited when there are so many players dominating VFL who can't make it in AFL.

It's just not a great measuring stick when spuds are dominating the competition left, right and centre.

We might as well take a look at that Jack Billings bloke. Dominant. VFL king.

Show me another ruck forward in his first season that looks as good at any level. Apparently there should be heaps. Even just a tall player that looks as good.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Plenty of promise with Dodson, sure. I'm pretty excited about him. Think he will be a gun for us.

But quoting VFL stats for an argument doesn't get me excited when there are so many players dominating VFL who can't make it in AFL.

It's just not a great measuring stick when spuds are dominating the competition left, right and centre.

We might as well take a look at that Jack Billings bloke. Dominant. VFL king.

Its a different story when you're talking about a first year player racking up stats against a Billings , Paton type , i would hope you could see the difference ,