List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[stavro#4]

I'm not convinced but weirder things have happened. I've never been a big fan of turning athletes into players and defenders like Wilkie are instinct over instruction. I'm not sure it's an education thing.

We'll see, Aleer looks exciting but leaks goals and looks a bit lost in the field. Lyon's golden era was a bunch of good players that were as disciplined as any defence in the league. They relied on a holding structure. Defence is more of a mix of zone with isolation on the turnover to attack off HB now.

Our back 6 looks the most suspect line now. Hammer looked okay at times but last few weeks looks like he's getting turned inside out without support. Wilkie and Sincs are elite. Tauru has started to look really shaky with his kicking and looks a bit tired. Stocker is all heart but a bit of plain Jane.

I don't think taking Tauru out and sticking Aleer in makes a huge difference. Howard staying fit and moving Hammer out and Aleer for Tauru are probably a 20% upgrade on the current back 6. I'd love a bit more tall stopper support.

We have had an elite defence 2/3 seasons. This year we haven’t and we lost Howard for practically all of it + Cordy as cover.

So have been undersized or playing 2 baby key backs.

I’d say it’s the exception not the rule with respect to RTBs ability to create an elite defensive group.

Which makes me feel a lot more comfortable that attributes are more important than defensive nous under him. See Dawson over Hudghton. See Caminiti looking like a defensive prospect.

What we lack are defenders who can compete aerially. Be it defensive 1on1 or intercept. He should in theory fit the need

 

[okeydoke7]

JIMMY WEBSTER

29

Jimmy Webster

Age

32

Ht

188cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.7

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.8

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

288.1

4star

No current season stats available

D

9.2

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.8

4star

will forever be known as that guy who kicked it out from full back to SPENCER WHITE

Spencer White

Age

31

Ht

196cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.5

1star

HB

2.5

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.0

5star

No current season stats available

D

6.0

2star

K

3.5

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.0

5star

who ran the field and kicked a goal, causing Saints fans to think we had the next Buddy Franklin.

 

[thekizzler]

I'm not convinced but weirder things have happened. I've never been a big fan of turning athletes into players and defenders like Wilkie are instinct over instruction. I'm not sure it's an education thing.

We'll see, Aleer looks exciting but leaks goals and looks a bit lost in the field. Lyon's golden era was a bunch of good players that were as disciplined as any defence in the league. They relied on a holding structure. Defence is more of a mix of zone with isolation on the turnover to attack off HB now.

Our back 6 looks the most suspect line now. Hammer looked okay at times but last few weeks looks like he's getting turned inside out without support. Wilkie and Sincs are elite. Tauru has started to look really shaky with his kicking and looks a bit tired. Stocker is all heart but a bit of plain Jane.

I don't think taking Tauru out and sticking Aleer in makes a huge difference. Howard staying fit and moving Hammer out and Aleer for Tauru are probably a 20% upgrade on the current back 6. I'd love a bit more tall stopper support.

I'm pumped about getting Dougal back in.

He had that shaky patch during the season we last played finals - still played finals though funnily enough.

But he is a solid player.

My take on the back six is that we were just overrun with lack of experience. That's why we were struggling to get the ball out and conceding from so many entries.

Instead of the likes of Nas (who moved midfield), Dougal, Jimmy...linking up with Sincs and Stocker....we had Caminiti, Tauru and Hastie, who I rate but just lack cohesion together.

It's no coincidence that a bit more experience in Hunter Clark was plugged into the back six, also Windy did a pretty good job in that area also.

 

[bird_man]

He looks like a 24 game tall defender. If you believe you can teach him the craft of really good backs like Wilkie. He has all the tools

He's also 24 years old so not exactly a kid. I was a fan but he doesn't seem to have come on like I thought he might.

Finger crossed we get him cheap in a trade and on less than what has been reported because it seems a decent risk otherwise.

 

[stavro#4]

He's also 24 years old so not exactly a kid. I was a fan but he doesn't seem to have come on like I thought he might.

Finger crossed we get him cheap in a trade and on less than what has been reported because it seems a decent risk otherwise.

He was also drafted older wasn’t he?

 

[gringo2011]

I'm not sure what this means long-term.

Clearly with Nas, Port were offering huge money and St Kilda had to compete. Even Adelaide had a big offer. And Nas has proven himself. I have no issue with us paying $2mil. Even if it'd been a longer deal.

But there remains a possibility that teams like, say, Geelong will remain disciplined and refuse to pay as much extra, instead relying on their natural advantages.

If the gap between what desperate clubs pay (Port - Butters, WC - Reid, Saints - Nas & TDK) vs what Geelong, etc pay grows (and grows relative to the salary cap in percentage terms) and if those new deals don't bear fruit long-term in terms of value for money, then there's the possibility that the change only exacerbates the inequality in the competition and increases the value of natural advantages held by other clubs.

Nas just had to get done. If you get a top 5 player in the comp you just do whatever it takes to keep him. He'll pay it back with interest. Membership, attendance, TV and fixturing all get a boost. Especially if we are playing finals worthy footy as well.

The high wage gambles on bringing in players is probably the biggest risk. Looks done regardless so just have to hope they get us value from the investment now.

There is no over paying if the players give that value back. Signing guys like Billings and Dunstan up on good contracts wasn't the wrong move, having no-one of a high enough standard to give the extra money too was the issue.

Geelong are incredible because they seem to keep finding players that are at least B grade from everywhere and then chase a few really high end stars to glitter up the solid list. They are always churning and developing a new generation.

 

[bird_man]

He was also drafted older wasn’t he?

He was. As was Wilkie. Three years of development at the Giants and I don't think he has come along as they would have hoped.

I doubt they'd see him as a big loss now.

 

[busso_mick]

I'm not convinced but weirder things have happened. I've never been a big fan of turning athletes into players and defenders like Wilkie are instinct over instruction. I'm not sure it's an education thing.

We'll see, Aleer looks exciting but leaks goals and looks a bit lost in the field. Lyon's golden era was a bunch of good players that were as disciplined as any defence in the league. They relied on a holding structure. Defence is more of a mix of zone with isolation on the turnover to attack off HB now.

Our back 6 looks the most suspect line now. Hammer looked okay at times but last few weeks looks like he's getting turned inside out without support. Wilkie and Sincs are elite. Tauru has started to look really shaky with his kicking and looks a bit tired. Stocker is all heart but a bit of plain Jane.

I don't think taking Tauru out and sticking Aleer in makes a huge difference. Howard staying fit and moving Hammer out and Aleer for Tauru are probably a 20% upgrade on the current back 6. I'd love a bit more tall stopper support.

Agree Gringo that our defence is very brittle after being strong for the previous 2 or 3 seasons. We have conceded 2 goals a game more this year which could be attributed to losing Battle and having Howard injured most of the year. It is no coincidence that Hawthorns defence has improved noticeably this year with Battle and Barrass new to the club. Aleer will give us options, development of Tauru and a fit Howard will make us stronger down back in 2026.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

Essendon and veteran midfielder Dylan Shiel

9

Dylan Shiel

Age

32

Ht

182cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

24.6

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

12.2

5star

M

3.1

3star

T

3.9

5star

MG

410.2

5star

D

23.4

5star

K

13.6

5star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.2

2star

T

3.4

4star

MG

334.4

5star

D

19.8

5star

K

8.4

4star

HB

11.4

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.6

4star

part ways following disappointing 2025 season | 7NEWS https://share.google/te6CwLmxImTahaIhx

 

[stavro#4]

He was. As was Wilkie. Three years of development at the Giants and I don't think he has come along as they would have hoped.

I doubt they'd see him as a big loss now.

They also don’t want to lose him.

 

[Parkysp]

Nas just had to get done. If you get a top 5 player in the comp you just do whatever it takes to keep him. He'll pay it back with interest. Membership, attendance, TV and fixturing all get a boost. Especially if we are playing finals worthy footy as well.

The high wage gambles on bringing in players is probably the biggest risk. Looks done regardless so just have to hope they get us value from the investment now.

There is no over paying if the players give that value back. Signing guys like Billings and Dunstan up on good contracts wasn't the wrong move, having no-one of a high enough standard to give the extra money too was the issue.

Geelong are incredible because they seem to keep finding players that are at least B grade from everywhere and then chase a few really high end stars to glitter up the solid list. They are always churning and developing a new generation.

Perhaps the issue isn't the number of B grade players available to draft? The issue lies with the number of good coaches and well set up programs that can create players reaching B grade? The soft cap for coaching may well be more detrimental for developing clubs than given much thought about.

 

[gringo2011]

We have had an elite defence 2/3 seasons. This year we haven’t and we lost Howard for practically all of it + Cordy as cover.

So have been undersized or playing 2 baby key backs.

I’d say it’s the exception not the rule with respect to RTBs ability to create an elite defensive group.

Which makes me feel a lot more comfortable that attributes are more important than defensive nous under him. See Dawson over Hudghton. See Caminiti looking like a defensive prospect.

What we lack are defenders who can compete aerially. Be it defensive 1on1 or intercept. He should in theory fit the need

We need Nas in the midfield and so pull out one of the elite players more regularly. We really miss Battle's solid all rounder role. He was good for run, intercepting and rebound kicking. Really nice hybrid type of tall with extras. Webster out takes our another very solid contribution.

Back 6 next year even with new players and a fit Howard looks like it's probably Howard/Hammer, Wilkie and Stocker. Aleer, Sinclair and perhaps LOC/Trav/Tauru. Still looks a bit shaky. Nas back when needed I imagine as well but perhaps swapping with Sinclair on ball?

 

[thekizzler]

We need Nas in the midfield and so pull out one of the elite players more regularly. We really miss Battle's solid all rounder role. He was good for run, intercepting and rebound kicking. Really nice hybrid type of tall with extras. Webster out takes our another very solid contribution.

Back 6 next year even with new players and a fit Howard looks like it's probably Howard/Hammer, Wilkie and Stocker. Aleer, Sinclair and perhaps LOC/Trav/Tauru. Still looks a bit shaky. Nas back when needed I imagine as well but perhaps swapping with Sinclair on ball?

Possibly try our man Henry as a back flanker too. A small defender.

If there is no room in an attacking role.

Not sure about his defensive capabilities but could be worth a crack at some point.

I do agree with Akaifu. Ideally he is a damaging forward but maybe there is another way into the team.

 

[gringo2011]

Possibly try our man Henry as back flanker too. A small defender.

If there is no room in an attacking role.

Not sure about his defensive capabilities but could be worth a crack at some point.

I do agree with Akaifu. Ideally he is a damaging forward but maybe there is another way into the team.

He's going to need some luck to even push back in with kids coming on and spots thinning.

 

[bird_man]

They also don’t want to lose him.

They would no doubt want something decent for him seeing as they drafted him early.

I just hoped we don't fold and get him cheaply because I don't think his value should be overly high.

 

[thekizzler]

He's going to need some luck to even push back in with kids coming on and spots thinning.

Too true.

Big positive for me if someone like Henry is struggling to get into the team.

 

[stavro#4]

We need Nas in the midfield and so pull out one of the elite players more regularly. We really miss Battle's solid all rounder role. He was good for run, intercepting and rebound kicking. Really nice hybrid type of tall with extras. Webster out takes our another very solid contribution.

Back 6 next year even with new players and a fit Howard looks like it's probably Howard/Hammer, Wilkie and Stocker. Aleer, Sinclair and perhaps LOC/Trav/Tauru. Still looks a bit shaky. Nas back when needed I imagine as well but perhaps swapping with Sinclair on ball?

If we retain Marshall. We will also have 5 on the bench that probably gives you spots for Tauru & Hastie. So you have a lot of options to give. Different make up

If Ross achieves his goal of “controlling” the air. That’s also a significantly improved side across every line.

 

[gringo2011]

Perhaps the issue isn't the number of B grade players available to draft? The issue lies with the number of good coaches and well set up programs that can create players reaching B grade? The soft cap for coaching may well be more detrimental for developing clubs than given much thought about.

100% the soft cap was bought in when Collingwood and Geelong were having one coach for every 5 players or something ridiculous. Smaller clubs were in a battle armed with water pistols while the rich clubs were buying nukes.

I think you can be good without the money even. Lots of ex players used to volunteer to do sessions with players at clubs like the Dogs for example. It became a way to network for the ex players and retain some community post footy.

Geelong are much more likely to play a kid in the VFL for a few years before injecting them in compared to others. They aren't massively into fast tracking in the seniors with a few rare exceptions.

I reckon the ideal formula to put together a senior side to challenge is roughly a B grade average with 95% of the best 22 over 50 games. Obviously a lot more factors thrown in but as a general concept you could draw up a planning tool. I haven't managed to sit down and see how far off that we are yet, but if the formula concept has any merit it should point to how far off a challenge we are.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

It’s incredible how much our team turns over from year to year. Are we normal?

 

[gringo2011]

If we retain Marshall. We will also have 5 on the bench that probably gives you spots for Tauru & Hastie. So you have a lot of options to give. Different make up

If Ross achieves his goal of “controlling” the air. That’s also a significantly improved side across every line.

Not a fan of controlling the air when everyone else is heading back to run and gun but not losing the ball to constant turn over would be nice.

If the bigger bench happens it might make 2 rucks work but my guess is that it will never really be a thing in modern footy unless one is a true KPF who can back up ruck. I guess we could always do what Ross used to do with McEvoy and drop him across HB to mop up entries as a spare.

 

[gringo2011]

It’s incredible how much our team turns over from year to year. Are we normal?

For where we are yes. A team in top 4 contention still has a minimum of 4 players in and out. Clubs like Geelong and Collingwood have turned over lot every 5 years. I think Collingwood was something like 33 players have gone off their 2020 list. Out of 48 players or whatever the list size is that's a fairly huge turnover. The players they did keep are probably a bit better than what we kept being the difference.

 

[saintbill]

As was discussed to death at the time.

The draft had a top 7 of quality - all the mids we missed and Tauru.

And then the next 10 or so picks of equal quality.

It’s why we could split 8 and the only offers were like Norths Future first. Moving the pick out.

People are waaaaaayyyyy to quick to write off Travaglia. He was very good in the champs against very good players. He needs a couple of seasons to build a body to go with his aerobic capacity. He also needs to learn about AFL level structures and learnings.

Don't agree with that at all. Reid was absolutely in the conversation with the other top mids. All the talk was how there was a clear top 7 mids, not top 6.

Reid was tearing games apart. In terms of on-field performance, his output was miles in front of even the likes of Smillie and FOS. Couldn't have been a safer bet he was going to translate to a good AFL player.

Certainly not writing off Trav, but it was a really odd selection for me. As was Barratt, given what was still available.

Reid and Whitlock were the obvious chocies at the time, and they still look the obvious choices now.

Our drafting has been excellent of late, so hopefully I am dead wrong, but to say the draft had a clear top tier of mids that Reid wasn't apart of, is just not correct.

 

[stavro#4]

Don't agree with that at all. Reid was absolutely in the conversation with the other top mids. All the talk was how there was a clear top 7 mids, not top 6.

Reid was tearing games apart. In terms of on-field performance, his output was miles in front of even the likes of Smillie and FOS. Couldn't have been a safer bet he was going to translate to a good AFL player.

Certainly not writing off Trav, but it was a really odd selection for me. As was Barratt, given what was still available.

Reid and Whitlock were the obvious chocies at the time, and they still look the obvious choices now.

Our drafting has been excellent of late, so hopefully I am dead wrong, but to say the draft had a clear top tier of mids that Reid wasn't apart of, is just not correct.

Reid fell out of the top 7 well before the draft. Go watch Twomeys draft rankings and phantoms.

For whatever reason, clubs soured on him as a top 7 prospect.

 

[stavro#4]

They would no doubt want something decent for him seeing as they drafted him early.

I just hoped we don't fold and get him cheaply because I don't think his value should be overly high.

Can’t imagine we are going to pay overs.

We didn’t for Kemp and he would have been similar money

 

[thekizzler]

Don't agree with that at all. Reid was absolutely in the conversation with the other top mids. All the talk was how there was a clear top 7 mids, not top 6.

Reid was tearing games apart. In terms of on-field performance, his output was miles in front of even the likes of Smillie and FOS. Couldn't have been a safer bet he was going to translate to a good AFL player.

Certainly not writing off Trav, but it was a really odd selection for me. As was Barratt, given what was still available.

Reid and Whitlock were the obvious chocies at the time, and they still look the obvious choices now.

Our drafting has been excellent of late, so hopefully I am dead wrong, but to say the draft had a clear top tier of mids that Reid wasn't apart of, is just not correct.

I'm all for a campaign for saintbill to replace Callum Twomey and any AFL recruiter that had a selection up the Saints picks.