List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Next in Ipswich
He’s a Saint
I’m on!!!!!!
Everyone’s a ****en Saint

 

[nikkig98]

Surely the money rumoured for JSOS can't be correct?

it usually isn't

 

[draft guru]

Not sure about the love for Ryan....bog ordinary career so far what I can ascertain.

he was crucial in a premiership side so if thats bog ordinary your expectations are too high. however i do not support the idea of getting him, as he doesn't fit our list build as we have enough smalls

 

[draft guru]

it usually isn't

Recruiting his own son multiple times is more of a worry

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Recruiting his own son multiple times is more of a worry

He wasn’t a large part of the decision by the sounds of it dRaFt GuRu

 

[westernsainter]

I keep seeing a bit that dodson is ahead of heath am i missing something heath has a lot better fwd craft, ruck craft, contested marking, and aggression. The only thing he has over heath is accumulation but doesnt impact much with his touches anyway. With the new jumping ruck rule coming I've seen heath jump surprisingly well where as dodson cant jump over a sheet of paper. Am I wrong?

The main difference is that Heath has been in the AFL for four and a half years now, so we are probably seeing him at his ceiling. Dodson's VFL form in the backend of the year as a first-year player shows enormous promise.

 

[nikkig98]

Recruiting his own son multiple times is more of a worry

i mean the first time wasn't so much as him recruiting as it was the history of carlton doing that in itself, and it was only with the 53rd pick as F/S. The second time is a bit worrying as his fitness isn't great but he's been good when playing, and is in demand by other clubs so its not unilateral

 

[bird_man]

he was crucial in a premiership side so if thats bog ordinary your expectations are too high. however i do not support the idea of getting him, as he doesn't fit our list build as we have enough smalls

That premiership was six years ago.

He's almost 29 and hasn't had a good season since 2021. He kicked 100 goals in his first four seasons and 58 in the next four.

 

[Saint12]

he was crucial in a premiership side so if thats bog ordinary your expectations are too high. however i do not support the idea of getting him, as he doesn't fit our list build as we have enough smalls

A purple patch in one game 7 years ago doesn't convince me to lock him in for 4 years...all good if that works for you. Smells too much like Hannebury, Hamill etc etc...

 

[nikkig98]

I keep seeing a bit that dodson is ahead of heath am i missing something heath has a lot better fwd craft, ruck craft, contested marking, and aggression. The only thing he has over heath is accumulation but doesnt impact much with his touches anyway. With the new jumping ruck rule coming I've seen heath jump surprisingly well where as dodson cant jump over a sheet of paper. Am I wrong?

Dodson is 18, its so rare for 18 year old ruckman to be as good as he was at VFL level, let alone debut and look decent

 

[westernsainter]

Remember this roller-coaster of a trade period:

Gallagher summarises Trade Period, plans for draft

St Kilda is backing in its existing youth to elevate the club’s overall list quality following a less active trade period compared to previous years.

www.saints.com.au

"We performed quite strongly in the first half of this season without any real impact from Nick Coffield, Zak Jones, Hunter Clark, Jack Billings and Jack Hayes (after Round 5), so we made a clear decision to focus on retaining our own talent and adding to it through the Draft or Free Agency."​

Grim stuff - hard to think of a statement further from the mark about where certain players were at...

"St Kilda received pick No. 32 from Gold Coast in exchange for Ben Long to land two selections inside the second round, but signalled its intentions early on to retain its first-round pick."​

There it is.

 

[draft guru]

A purple patch in one game 7 years ago doesn't convince me to lock him in for 4 years...all good if that works for you. Smells too much like Hannebury, Hamill etc etc...

a purple patch give me a break hes an all aus in 2020 but as i said before i dont want him as he is too old

 

[akaifu]

I don't get how people are saying we have enough small forwards

We were forced to play Wilson in the forward pocket when we wanted to develop his midfield stuff in the VFL and we kept playing Collard when he arguably wasn't ready. All because of one injury to a 29 year old Dan Butler who is our one and only proven AFL pressure forward

IMO it's definitely a position of need

 

[draft guru]

Dodson is 18, its so rare for 18 year old ruckman to be as good as he was at VFL level, let alone debut and look decent

i do agree on that he could be something special but just by looking at vfl numbers heath blows him out the water and both looked good at afl

 

[aussierulesrules]

Overall we're doing exactly what we planned to do at the start: hit the draft for two years then attack FA. Intrigued to see if we give up this year's 1RDP: gonna give the Gringo cabal ammo to slaughter the club for repeating the mistakes of 2019. "Oh but we know what we're doing THIS time" lol.

I like the strategy of going really hard when the time is right, but for mine, we’re going a year too early. As if we think we can win the flag next year.

I have no problem going after a guy like Flanders, and even SOSOS (as we don’t have to trade for him), but my view is that we’ve invested really good draft picks on kids in the last few years, and have what I consider to be by far the biggest and best crop of kids we’ve had at one time since the early 2000’s, yet instead of backing those kids in, and giving them game time to bloom, we’re trying to bring in a whole lot of mature aged guys, who aren’t necessarily that good (or who are on obscene money), who are basically going to act like a huge road-block in their path to the team.

Caminiti for instance has just held down FB at 21yo and taken the 26th most marks in the comp, and despite playing forward in at least two games, was top 50 for both intercept marks and intercepts (he took more intercept marks than AA Josh Battle!), and he ought to be ready to really take a big step forward next year, yet we might be looking to push him back to the VFL, by getting BOTH Aleer (who’s no better than him now, despite being two years older!), and SOSOS. WTF!?

Keeler has talent up the wazoo and is tall, athletic and versatile, and could be really ready to explode in the next two years, yet he too will be pushed back to the VFL, if we’re playing all of King, TDK and Marshall.

Dodson looks like a prodigiously talented freak, who could hold down a no.1 ruck role by as soon as 2027, and is OOC next year, yet we’re bringing another bloke in on HUGE coin, to play in his sole preferred position, for the next 8 years! And supposedly wanting Ro to stay, which will make it likely he doesn’t get a look in next year. Enormously risky if we do that.

We obviously rate Lance Collard, and invested a (late) first rounder on him, and he too ought to be ready to really take a step up next year, yet we’re bringing in an old injury-prone bloke to play his position, for possibly the next 4 years.

We spent a very valuable pick in last years superdraft (equivalent to a top 20 pick this year) on Barrat, yet 12 months later we’re looking to bring in possibly TWO senior blokes who will make him about 6th in line going forward, etc.

To me it seems a really bizarre strategy.

We’ve invested these very valuable picks in these talented kids, and some of them are coming up to the point where they could really take a big step forward, yet we’re going to spend all this money to put these big road blocks in their path.

Which would make sense if we thought our “premiership window” was about to close, and we had to win one in say the next 2 years, but I would have thought the best way to give yourself a shot at a flag would be to build extremely strong foundations, so that you give yourself an extended period of time to contend for flags.

And that comes from investing in the gun kids you’ve got, not pushing them back to the VFL, to stall their development, and make them likely to look for the door, I would have thought.

So for me we’re throwing around too much money too soon. Before we have a really good idea of what we’ve got with the kids we already have.

Especially the tall ones, who take longer to develop.

And if you can climb the ladder off mostly youth improving (which I think we definitely could, next year, if we backed them in) then you’ll be a much better chance of attracting genuine game-changing types, like Butters.

Rather than spending so much cash on “B-graders at best” types, when you have a bunch of kids who could get to that level or even higher, potentially soon, if you backed them in.

This strategy will undoubtedly make us probably a LOT better next year, but I really struggle to see how we win a flag off the back of it.

Whereas if we backed in the super-talented kids we already have, and then start throwing around huge cash for serious guns once we really know what we’ve already got, and are hopefully a more appealing proposition than we are this year, I could easily see how we could contend for multiple years and win one.

 

[jwikked]

Anyone getting tired of winning?

 

[Saint12]

a purple patch give me a break hes an all aus in 2020 but as i said before i dont want him as he is too old

Is he going to Brisbane

 

[nikkig98]

I like the strategy of going really hard when the time is right, but for mine, we’re going a year too early. As if we think we can win the flag next year.

I have no problem going after a guy like Flanders, and even SOSOS (as we don’t have to trade for him), but my view is that we’ve invested really good draft picks on kids in the last few years, and have what I consider to be by far the biggest and best crop of kids we’ve had at one time since the early 2000’s, yet instead of backing those kids in, and giving them game time to bloom, we’re trying to bring in a whole lot of mature aged guys who aren’t necessarily that good (or who are on obscene money), who are basically going to act like a huge road-block in their path to the team.

Caminiti has just held down FB at 21yo and taken the 26th most marks in the comp, and despite playing forward in at least two games, was top 50 for both intercept marks and intercepts (he took more intercept marks than AA Josh Battle!), and he ought to be ready to really take a big step forward next year, yet we might be looking to push him back to the VFL, by getting BOTH Aleer (who’s no better than him now, despite being two years older!), and SOSOS. WTF!?

Keeler has talent up the wazoo and is tall, athletic and versatile, and could be really ready to explode in the next two years, yet he too will be pushed back to the VFL, if we’re playing all of King, TDK and Marshall.

Dodson looks like a prodigiously talented freak, who could hold down a no.1 ruck role by as soon as 2027, and is OOC next year, yet we’re bringing another bloke in on HUGE coin, to play in his sole preferred position, for the next 8 years! And supposedly wanting Ro to stay, which will make it likely he doesn’t get a look in next year. Enormously risky if we do that.

We obviously rate Lance Collard, and invested a (late) first rounder on him, and he too ought to be ready to really take a step up next year, yet we’re bringing in an old injury-prone bloke to play his position for possibly the next 4 years.

We spent a very valuable pick in last years superdraft (equivalent to a top 20 pick this year) on Barrat, yet 12 months later we’re looking to bring in possibly TWO senior blokes who will make him about 6th in line going forward, etc.

To me it seems a really bizarre strategy.

We’ve invested these very valuable picks in these talented kids, and some of them are coming up to the point where they could really take a big step forward, yet we’re going to spend all this money to put these big road blocks in their path.

Which would make sense if we thought our “premiership window” was about to close, and we had to win one in say the next 2 years, but I would have thought the best way to give yourself a shot at a flag would be to build extremely strong foundations, so that you give yourself an extended period of time to contend for flags.

And that comes from investing in the gun kids you’ve got, not pushing them back to the VFL, to stall their development, and make them likely to look for the door, I would have thought.

So for me we’re throwing around too much money too soon. Before we have a really good idea of what we’ve got with the kids we already have.

Especially the tall ones, who take longer to develop.

And if you can climb the ladder off mostly youth improving (which I think we definitely could, next year, if we backed them in) then you’ll be a much better chance of attracting genuine game-changing types, like Butters.

Rather than spending so much cash on “B-graders at best” types, when you have a bunch of kids who could get to that level or even higher, potentially soon, if you backed them in.

This strategy will undoubtedly make us probably a LOT better next year, but I really struggle to see how we win a flag off the back of it.

Whereas if we backed in the super-talented kids we already have, and then start throwing around huge cash for serious guns once we really know what we’ve already got, and are hopefully a more appealing proposition than we are this year, I could easily see how we could contend for multiple years and win one.

You gotta understand that this push is most likely a result of the Nasiah signing. We have 2 years of our best asset since Lenny Hayes and Nick Riewoldt in which we have to convince him that St Kilda is the place to be long term.

If we can push hard next year and make finals, its much more likely that he re-signs by the start of his 2nd year.

Otherwise, we go into 2027 with the same trepidation and doubt about our future, and it'll come down to the wire yet again, with an unsigned Nas hanging like an albatross over our head while we make a finals push at the backend of 2027 and the South Aus clubs circling like vultures.

Even if we go too early, but that results in keeping Nas, it extends our window even further. He's still only 22

 

[Mr Platinum]

You gotta understand that this push is most likely a result of the Nasiah signing. We have 2 years of our best asset since Lenny Hayes and Nick Riewoldt in which we have to convince him that St Kilda is the place to be long term.

If we can push hard next year and make finals, its much more likely that he re-signs by the start of his 2nd year.

Otherwise, we go into 2027 with the same trepidation and doubt about our future, and it'll come down to the wire yet again, with an unsigned Nas hanging like an albatross over our head while we make a finals push at the backend of 2027 and the South Aus clubs circling like vultures.

Even if we go too early, but that results in keeping Nas, it extends our window even further. He's still only 22

We are going hard because this is a diabolical draft depth wise which is then killed off with the Nepo concessions.

 

[draft guru]

Is he going to Brisbane

yea him and cameron would be dangerous but not a need

 

[aussierulesrules]

You gotta understand that this push is most likely a result of the Nasiah signing. We have 2 years of our best asset since Lenny Hayes and Nick Riewoldt in which we have to convince him that St Kilda is the place to be long term.

If we can push hard next year and make finals, its much more likely that he re-signs by the start of his 2nd year.

Otherwise, we go into 2027 with the same trepidation and doubt about our future, and it'll come down to the wire yet again, with an unsigned Nas hanging like an albatross over our head while we make a finals push at the backend of 2027 and the South Aus clubs circling like vultures.

Even if we go too early, but that results in keeping Nas, it extends our window even further. He's still only 22

That’s fine if our no.1 goal going forward is to retain Nas, but if our no.1 goal going forward is to win a flag, I don’t see this approach likely to be successful.

And again, I’m not suggesting we never go this hard, but that 12 months from now makes far more sense to me. Once hopefully guys like Pou and Wilson have taken big steps up.

And if we were to improve through natural youth improvement next year, plus the additions of say Flanders and SOSOS, and then went on a spending spree next year (once we have a better idea of what we’ve already got, and when we might be able to attract genuinely elite types, rather than “OK” types), then we could really spike hard in 2027, when Nas and co are coming OOC.

So I see going super hard with our banked cap space next year rather than this being a better approach to BOTH retaining Nas, AND giving ourselves the best chance of winning a flag in our lifetimes.

 

[westernsainter]

I like the strategy of going really hard when the time is right, but for mine, we’re going a year too early. As if we think we can win the flag next year.

I have no problem going after a guy like Flanders, and even SOSOS (as we don’t have to trade for him), but my view is that we’ve invested really good draft picks on kids in the last few years, and have what I consider to be by far the biggest and best crop of kids we’ve had at one time since the early 2000’s, yet instead of backing those kids in, and giving them game time to bloom, we’re trying to bring in a whole lot of mature aged guys, who aren’t necessarily that good (or who are on obscene money), who are basically going to act like a huge road-block in their path to the team.

Caminiti for instance has just held down FB at 21yo and taken the 26th most marks in the comp, and despite playing forward in at least two games, was top 50 for both intercept marks and intercepts (he took more intercept marks than AA Josh Battle!), and he ought to be ready to really take a big step forward next year, yet we might be looking to push him back to the VFL, by getting BOTH Aleer (who’s no better than him now, despite being two years older!), and SOSOS. WTF!?

Keeler has talent up the wazoo and is tall, athletic and versatile, and could be really ready to explode in the next two years, yet he too will be pushed back to the VFL, if we’re playing all of King, TDK and Marshall.

Dodson looks like a prodigiously talented freak, who could hold down a no.1 ruck role by as soon as 2027, and is OOC next year, yet we’re bringing another bloke in on HUGE coin, to play in his sole preferred position, for the next 8 years! And supposedly wanting Ro to stay, which will make it likely he doesn’t get a look in next year. Enormously risky if we do that.

We obviously rate Lance Collard, and invested a (late) first rounder on him, and he too ought to be ready to really take a step up next year, yet we’re bringing in an old injury-prone bloke to play his position, for possibly the next 4 years.

We spent a very valuable pick in last years superdraft (equivalent to a top 20 pick this year) on Barrat, yet 12 months later we’re looking to bring in possibly TWO senior blokes who will make him about 6th in line going forward, etc.

To me it seems a really bizarre strategy.

We’ve invested these very valuable picks in these talented kids, and some of them are coming up to the point where they could really take a big step forward, yet we’re going to spend all this money to put these big road blocks in their path.

Which would make sense if we thought our “premiership window” was about to close, and we had to win one in say the next 2 years, but I would have thought the best way to give yourself a shot at a flag would be to build extremely strong foundations, so that you give yourself an extended period of time to contend for flags.

And that comes from investing in the gun kids you’ve got, not pushing them back to the VFL, to stall their development, and make them likely to look for the door, I would have thought.

So for me we’re throwing around too much money too soon. Before we have a really good idea of what we’ve got with the kids we already have.

Especially the tall ones, who take longer to develop.

And if you can climb the ladder off mostly youth improving (which I think we definitely could, next year, if we backed them in) then you’ll be a much better chance of attracting genuine game-changing types, like Butters.

Rather than spending so much cash on “B-graders at best” types, when you have a bunch of kids who could get to that level or even higher, potentially soon, if you backed them in.

This strategy will undoubtedly make us probably a LOT better next year, but I really struggle to see how we win a flag off the back of it.

Whereas if we backed in the super-talented kids we already have, and then start throwing around huge cash for serious guns once we really know what we’ve already got, and are hopefully a more appealing proposition than we are this year, I could easily see how we could contend for multiple years and win one.

I think I see our situation as both more optimistic and pessimistic.

Caminiti did show some promise down back this year but he still has a ton of work to do before he's anywhere near a serviceable key defender, if he ever makes it at that level at all. From what I remember the coaches have even made comments they would prefer him as a forward, so bringing in some talented cover in that position makes us stronger.

Keeler looks OK. He's shown flashes of being at the level, but based on this season I think if we are being completely honest he's more likely to be out of the league in two years than looking at signing a four year deal.

Dodson has had a fantastic run of VFL form and I hope it continues, but we don't have anywhere near enough knowledge about him to inform a list strategy. In all likelihood he will be hitting his straps when Marshall is at the end, so I'm really not worried about that for now.

As for the other young guys we've brought in, I'm actually happy the club isn't just assuming they will all be guns like we did when we hate the ill-fated Saints Future Fest a decade ago. I was extremely bullish about a number of players having stacks of talent, including:

• Billings
• Clark
• Coffield
• Roberton
• Weller
• Gresham
• Goddard
• Dunstan
• Newnes
• Bruce

and the list almost certainly goes on, but I'm not so much of a masochist I'm going to look back at some of my earlier posts on this forum!

I hope that Wilson, Travaglia, Pou etc all come on and reach the heights we think they will, but if we are being realistic about it we simply haven't seen it yet and basing our recruiting on "potential" instead of reality is a disaster waiting to happen. If they turn out like the last crop did we don't move at all, and we can't expect Nas to stick around as the sole shining light if that does happen.

If we end up with a salary cap squeeze because we so shoot up the ladder, great! That will be the first "good problem" we've had since 2012.

 

[Saint12]

yea him and cameron would be dangerous but not a need

Well take your chat to the Brissie board

 

[akaifu]

That’s fine if our no.1 goal going forward is to retain Nas, but if our no.1 goal going forward is to win a flag, I don’t see this approach likely to be successful.

And again, I’m not suggesting we never go this hard, but that 12 months from now makes far more sense to me. Once hopefully guys like Pou and Wilson have taken big steps up.

And if we were to improve through natural youth improvement next year, plus the additions of say Flanders and SOSOS, and then went on a spending spree next year (once we have a better idea of what we’ve already got, and when we might be able to attract genuinely elite types, rather than “OK” types), then we could really spike hard in 2027, when Nas and co are coming OOC.

So I see going super hard with our banked cap space next year rather than this being a better approach to BOTH retaining Nas, AND giving ourselves the best chance of winning a flag in our lifetimes.

Ross has said he thinks the OOC 2027 cohort can lead a side to contention

That's all you need in terms of explanation

If you 'wait and see' for 12 months, that's half the window eliminated...for what benefit? If the kids regress then we're screwed anyway

We're also no guarantee to land any of the 2026 free agents. We can't take this TDK scenario for granted - he stays if his club didn't screw up their salary cap that hard

Also we need to spend some of this cap this year I believe so that money would also go down the drain

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

I like the strategy of going really hard when the time is right, but for mine, we’re going a year too early. As if we think we can win the flag next year.

I think this is the new St Kilda strategy going forward. Just target and don't worry about pissing off people.