List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[Anythings_sipposible]

I thought the same thing myself. But I doubt Port trades Butters with an incoming coach.

It could be that Windhager is a chip in a bigger trade. As has been mentioned here, Demons could offload Petracca to Hawks, who could in turn trade MacKenzie to Saints.

A rare three player trade.

Saints then split pick 7 for pick 9 (TDK comp) + Pick 20.(JSOS comp). Either pick is used for Flanders who will soon be phased out of Gold Coast.

Saints bring in Flanders and MacKenzie.

Just a theory on my part.

Conversely, if Hawks trade pick 8 to Saints rather than MacKenzie (their payment for Petracca passed on to us) then Saints are armed with two top 10 picks. Is there another trade we would pursue or would we in fact hit the draft after all?

Options aplenty if that happens.

I think I'd be much more likely that the Hawks were doing CMac and pick 8 to Melbourne in that trade, with something going back their way. Maybe

Hawks Out: 8, CMac
Hawks In: Petracca

St K Out: Windhager, Heath
St K In: CMac

Dees Out: Petracca
Dees In: Windhager, Heath, 8

Doesn't look terrible on paper, Hawks maybe over paying but it's hard to put a trade value on Trac because if he comes good he's a top 10 player, but injury might have taken the best out of him

 

[Banger9798]

One of our best late in the season. Starting to show what he can do if used properly.

Gutted if he goes. He should just stay with his mates and win a flag. He is, or at least will be, better than a B grader. As you say last half of the year, he started to show his potential. Got a feeling he didn't get enough love from his coach.Lyon heaped praise on Phillipou at every opportunity and was very sparing whenever Windy came up. Thos things make a difference (so do the $$)

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Funny how the narrative around him is changing now that he might leave.

If the club was trying to get him from another club the same people would be singing his praises.

You can set your clock to his shit.

At the same time we talk down his value to the team but talk up his trade value.

Don't want to lose Windy but clearly we've taken a gamble and this was one of the risks.

 

[BrutThough]

I don’t want to lose him. But he isn’t an 800K or above player. Again, I thought it would be youthful immaturity right now and he would calm down - but if he truly wants that money today and don’t I blame him, I also don’t see that happening with us.

This is exactly my view. There is a limit at which we are willing to pay him and that's fine. if he can get more elsewhere, then I wish him the best of luck and dont blame him for maximising is value.

But there is a limit for every player and we have to stick to that. I'd rather lose him now than a Phillipou or a Wilson over the next few years.

 

[Jade Buddha]

If we lose Windhager for Silvagni and Ryan type players it will be a disgrace.

Would lose all the momentum we've had since the Nas re-signing.

But is that what we are doing? Ryan is a forward pocket and JSOS is a backman. I think they are different arguments. I think what is happening is we are waiting on potential mids.
I rate Windy but I’m not sure who else the club are waiting on. Unless we land someone out of nowhere I’d be pretty sure he’ll get an upgraded offer.

 

[_Maximus_12]

If we lose Windhager for Silvagni and Ryan type players it will be a disgrace.

Would lose all the momentum we've had since the Nas re-signing.

Disagree with this.
Club has been public about its ambitions to pull every leaver to improve. SOS is a top line defender at his best, and Ryan one of the most mercurial forwards in the competition.
Passing up on improving our list deficiencies because our 22 year old wingman/tagger wants $800k is where you regress.
Windy hasn’t proven he’s worth that.. yet. He may, but there are a number of young mids who’ve gone past him as stoppage mids on our list already.
Will be a shame if he goes but hardly undoes the good work the club is doing

 

[L_W_P]

He rucked against both of Darcy and Jackson all night and they had no impact. Infact the only time Jackson was threatening was when he went deep forward.

Witt’s had more Clearances than both combined.

My post wasn't advocating for the Freo rucks, it was showing that none of them really had an impact.

Witts had plenty of clearances but he went at 57% DE. So assuming all 6 of his clearances were effective, it means he was actually detrimental to his team with his possessions around the ground.

 

[stavro#4]

My post wasn't advocating for the Freo rucks, it was showing that none of them really had an impact.

Witts had plenty of clearances but he went at 57% DE. So assuming all 6 of his clearances were effective, it means he was actually detrimental to his team with his possessions around the ground.

But by limiting their impact on his own, it shows the impact he had. He was a giant in that game last night.

 

[_Maximus_12]

I’d caution that we shouldn’t get too attached to our players as supporters over the next few years. The club is clearly hellbent on improving our list. We will likely be targeting players from other clubs that require us to part way with assets we value as supporters. There will be times we get it wrong, and times we get it right but the judgement will need to be made in totality. Not in the space of one offseason.
That’s the nature of the game.

 

[seasonedsainter]

OK I found it there on Twitter. In my mind losing Windy would be more of a cultural loss than a player loss if that makes sense. He's mates with the crew. They've been on a mission. But at times he's looked bog average and the reason he tags is he's not a great kick. Personally would love to keep him as he has improvement yet I feel. But also feel he's been such a diligent trainer etc he's likely gotten a lot out of himself already.

I think clearly if he's going to Melbourne a larger deal is afoot. And also yeah, Ross likely doesn't rate him and see's Boxshall/Garcia types as moving ahead of him. As long as we don't end up with one of those washed up Melbourne mids I won't be losing sleep. As long as it doesn't disrupt the culture. I mean Melbourne aint far from St Kilda so he can still be close to NAS/his mates.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[Saints43]

Finey gets decent info.

Finey hasn't even got a letter box.

 

[Armoooo]

Disagree with this.
Club has been public about its ambitions to pull every leaver to improve. SOS is a top line defender at his best, and Ryan one of the most mercurial forwards in the competition.
Passing up on improving our list deficiencies because our 22 year old wingman/tagger wants $800k is where you regress.
Windy hasn’t proven he’s worth that.. yet. He may, but there are a number of young mids who’ve gone past him as stoppage mids on our list already.
Will be a shame if he goes but hardly undoes the good work the club is doing

Silvagni is not a proven top line defender. He had a good patch of form, but over the last 5 years he averages 14 games a season and has never been close to an All Australian squad.

Ryan was one of the most mercurial forwards. He's a guy that relied on his insane athleticism who is going to be 30 soon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have both players. But if we either didn't know they would cost us Windhager, or we knew it would, it was a massive mistake.

People are suddenly acting like getting Cmac for Windy and Heath would be a good result?

There are 16 fan bases in the league who would jump at Windhager well ahead of Cmac.

If its Windy for Flanders, I think we come out doing well in isolation, but there would have been a way to have both, even if it was at the expense of one of JSOS, Ryan or Aleer.

 

[Saints43]

It's so $%&#ing annoying as well if he does leave because the media narrative will turn from destination club to St Kilda causes player unrest with case splash.

Can't we just squeal that another club offered Windy a better contract and that they're ruining the fabric of football?

 

[gringo2011]

Disagree with this.
Club has been public about its ambitions to pull every leaver to improve. SOS is a top line defender at his best, and Ryan one of the most mercurial forwards in the competition.
Passing up on improving our list deficiencies because our 22 year old wingman/tagger wants $800k is where you regress.
Windy hasn’t proven he’s worth that.. yet. He may, but there are a number of young mids who’ve gone past him as stoppage mids on our list already.
Will be a shame if he goes but hardly undoes the good work the club is doing

We are paying TDK probably 3 times more than what he should be on, Aleer at least 3 times his value, Jack Silvagni is probably worth around 3/4 of what he's getting. I'd say they are all B graders or below at this point.

It's hard to tell a player that they aren't worth paying market rate when you've gone and paid up for similar level players. We have massive cap space by paying existing players lower rates.

The club has to start paying some dividends. We can't just grab a few new toys to excuse a lack of of progress. If they can't perform after spending up big on targeted players they should be in the gun. They need to be held to account with on field performance. No excuses any more.

 

[Armoooo]

I think clearly if he's going to Melbourne a larger deal is afoot.

Unless we're getting an absolute A grade mid like Butters, I dont think it's worth losing the guy that could very well be our 2nd best mid next year (I rate Hall higher but worried about second year blues)

 

[seasonedsainter]

I’d caution that we shouldn’t get too attached to our players as supporters over the next few years. The club is clearly hellbent on improving our list. We will likely be targeting players from other clubs that require us to part way with assets we value as supporters. There will be times we get it wrong, and times we get it right but the judgement will need to be made in totality. Not in the space of one offseason.
That’s the nature of the game.

Agreed. They're ruthless and will do anything to succeed. I fully back this strategy, no matter what we need a Flag. No player gets in the way of that. Hell, they probably promised NAS they'd offer Windy $1m a year over 8 "if you could just sign here please, Mr. Wanganeen Milera"

 

[beside the seaside]

Funny how the narrative around him is changing now that he might leave.

If the club was trying to get him from another club the same people would be singing his praises.

You can set your clock to this shit.

General consensus seems to be everyone wants to keep him. Let's see how it plays out, still hopeful he signs up.

 

[stavro#4]

One of our best late in the season. Starting to show what he can do if used properly.

So now he wasn’t used properly?

You did the same with Battle last year at least you are consistent - no matter how wrong.

Hypercrit comes to mind. You regularly state how incorrect the stated media contract dollars are for player offers or contracts. Yet you are happy to quote the 800+K the media are rolling out for Windhager.

Its amazing how your glasses get more rose coloured, as soon as the club decisions are called into question.

And I stand by my Battle argument. Tauru looks absolutely elite. If the net outcome of that Battle scenario is Tauru and JSOS for Battle, how can you argue it’s a loss?

Year after year the idea that the salary offer is relevant to the trade value is raised and it is so, so, dumb.

Trade value is dependent on supply and demand and whether a club is willing to take less than market value or walk away with nothing.

By offering an inflated salary that knocks out other suitors, trade value actually becomes cheaper, because there are less suitors to start a trade war.

If Windhager wants to go to Melbourne we would be lucky to get a 2nd round pick for him.

Personally, if that's all they offer I kind of hope we walk away from the trade and let him negotiate a new deal with us or try his luck in the draft.

I'm normally all for letting players that want out find their way to a new club, but I dont think Windy has been around long enough to deserve any favours.

Do you know what the current offer is?

First reports were that we had 2 years at about 500k. Then we upped to to 4 years but I haven't seen any money reported.

I don't think we'd have to match Norths offer to keep him but we were a long way off to start with.

I’ll answer these 2 in one.

A few weeks back I said the rumour was that Windy was asking for north of 850k to stay.

The next gettable Twomey said that Norths offer is something like 800/5.

It’s then been reported we came to the table and moved from 2 years to 4.

It’s also been reported that there are about 5-6 clubs all chasing Windhager. So not only is the player in demand, he has a massive offer in dollars and years.

If Flanders and Cmac are apparently first round picks. That’s the ball park I see Windys trade price being set at.

 

[Teflon]

Murphy Reid is a star

Yup
People can say what they like we missed one there
I genuinely loved his draft vids imagine him in our side right now ???

 

[stavro#4]

Finey hasn't even got a letter box.

Didn’t realise you get paid for saints info.

 

[seasonedsainter]

Unless we're getting an absolute A grade mid like Butters, I dont think it's worth losing the guy that could very well be our 2nd best mid next year (I rate Hall higher but worried about second year blues)

Ahead of Windy I would have:

NAS, Hall, Garcia, Box, Pou, Macrae (although old), Wilson...

 

[seasonedsainter]

Murphy Reid is a star

Yes just imagine if it was Reid / Tauroo

 

[bird_man]

So now he wasn’t used properly?


And I stand by my Battle argument. Tauru looks absolutely elite. If the net outcome of that Battle scenario is Tauru and JSOS for Battle, how can you argue it’s a loss?



I’ll answer these 2 in one.

A few weeks back I said the rumour was that Windy was asking for north of 850k to stay.

The next gettable Twomey said that Norths offer is something like 800/5.

It’s then been reported we came to the table and moved from 2 years to 4.

It’s also been reported that there are about 5-6 clubs all chasing Windhager. So not only is the player in demand, he has a massive offer in dollars and years.

If Flanders and Cmac are apparently first round picks. That’s the ball park I see Windys trade price being set at.

That didn't really answer my question at all.

Has it been reported anywhere what our money offer is to him other than when it was reported we offered two years at around 500k?

It would be nice to know if the money has gone up as well as the years. I don't think he's worth 850k, but I also think 500k is a slap in the face.

I think if we offered him a fair deal over four years and he still chose to take the big offers than that's just unlucky, but we seemed to be low balling him from the the start. I just hope we haven't continued to do that.

 

[pluggeranddoc]

The club clearly just doesn't rate him that highly.

Idiots!
They create a wave of inflation through allowing ridiculous offers to be publicised and then lowball decent players of our own.
Windhager would be rightly insulted to be ranked below Aleer.
The imbecile Misson strikes again, another Lovett/Ball scwnario!

 

[Teflon]

Not disagreeing.

Just an observation.

Starting to think he wouldn’t be worth pick 7. Thinking more Marshall pick

If we could land him and keep 7 ideal