List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[kernelT]

so what you're saying, is that it's Bassett's fault last time Lyon left and the club blew up the list just as the expansion clubs came in???

Gold Coast's fault.

 

[gubby88]

Gold Coast's fault.

nah, for old Mowie, it would be SOSs fault

 

[DarkSaint]

Except he hasn't done that.

It's been in the news cycle again this week due to multiple outlets releasing draft rankings, Jon Ralph writing an article about it earlier in the week and Chris Scott mentioning it on AFL360. Is he not allowed to mention topics that impact us when they are featuring in the news cycle?

Watch his pres conference. It happens on a weekly basis. Surely you can see that.

 

[Saint Shags]

so what you're saying, is that it's Bassett's fault last time Lyon left and the club blew up the list just as the expansion clubs came in???

What he is saying is that sometimes there are things that dictate how long one should be in charge of an organisation.

Andrew Bassat has been President since late 2018. That means that he has been part of the decisions made at the club. From coaches to staffing appointments.

If this latest rebuild is not successful, should Ross be the only one to be under pressure for losing his position?

IMO Ross and Bassat will want next year to be a good one. Another one like this one will see both with the heat on them. And it will be totally justified.

 

[gubby88]

What he is saying is that sometimes there are things that dictate how long one should be in charge of an organisation.

Andrew Bassat has been President since late 2018. That means that he has been part of the decisions made at the club. From coaches to staffing appointments.

If this latest rebuild is not successful, should Ross be the only one to be under pressure for losing his position?

IMO Ross and Bassat will want next year to be a good one. Another one like this one will see both with the heat on them. And it will be totally justified.

I'm well aware of what he's saying, chief

 

[Saint Shags]

I'm well aware of what he's saying, chief

Obviously you're not as seen by your comment.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

However what my issue is Ross constantly talking about it in every single press conference post match, pre match and during the week for 12 weeks straight.

 

[Mowman]

so what you're saying, is that it's Bassett's fault last time Lyon left and the club blew up the list just as the expansion clubs came in???

LOL
yeah that’s what I said

 

[Joffaboy]

Once again…. I will repeat it. Two things can be true at once.
Our recruiting
Our development
Fitness
Coaching choices.

However the point is as I said if we had the advantages they had we could offset some of those issues. Ie

Sydney swans last

First rd picks wasted
Dylan Stephen’s
Mathew ling
Will green
Jacob Konstanty

Now I’m not discounting their ability to draft later.
However one of the many advantages of academies and father sons is offesetting other stuff ups.

All ok, but a further layer. If we had the advantages of FS and NGA and the list managers, club structure and Richo as coach we would have stuffed it worse than North.
AFL asked us to get our act together. Finnis cops shit but got us the funds and back to Linton St from Seaford, then this decade under Bassat got our shit together in Admin and coaching and began the total restructure of the list.

This is why Bassat and Lyon keep speaking out about NGA's and FS. They did what the AFL asked but still have one hand tied behind their backs.

Coupled with the shit draw while underperforming like Carlton and Essendon pollute prime time week in week out, and now outsiders are cottoning on to the looming disaster we have on our hands where we have a perennial two tier competition where you are in the bottom half and can't get out.

People say the fake northern clubs have to shed players so their free corrupt gifts can fit in. Great so the other clubs get the unwanted cast offs. We have to pay a premium for a back who is depth for GWS and we are supposed to be happy about it?
We can't attract decent recruits as they don't want to play Sunday at 4.40 in front of 20k at soulless Marvel, we have to pay way overs for a half decent ruckman, we are 4th or 5th last should get pick 6 but will get pick 13.
We have been our own worst enemies. Could have had Petracca and Bont ( yes, I know we have had that conversation) and could have set up our mids for a decade but that is 10 years ago. We have hit the draft hard since 2021, and tried to bring in ready made players. Have done what we could and can under the constraints of the AFL and their BS inequities.
You don't win one flag in 150 years if you are a well run club. We have not been well run, have not had a competitive team for 15 years, and made very poor decisions between then until Basset became president. Nobody denies this. Nobody.
However it can't just be said that the current situation is all our fault and we need to just do better. That is frankly glossing over the details of what is happening.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Cho, Ratten, Lyon

Inherited the 1st
CEO made a blue in reappointing the 2nd
Got the man he wanted eventually

 

[Linton Street Saint]

The no. of people essentially arguing Collingwood are were they are now after completely f**king rooting their salary cap and having to effectively salary dump the quality of Treloar and Grundy without getting access to Daicos' and Moore for peanuts completely blows my ****ing mind.

If the Saints made the same mistake. FMD Owens, Windhager and Fincher who all clubs had access to around market value would carry us to the last dance right ? .... right?!

I know, I jest. It really is Bassats and Lyons fault for trying to right the ship.

 

[Mowman]

I'm well aware of what he's saying, chief

Obviously you don’t

 

[gubby88]

Obviously you don’t

actually I do, I'm well aware of what you're saying. ..it's a whinge...or blaming a list manager...like everything else you post...

here's one for you, the current administration is trying to get the club to a standard of play but has been absolutely hamstrung by the administrations of old...due to this they have tried 3 different avenues, currently with RTB as coach and SOS as list manager, but as you say, SOS is no good and therefore is ruining the club...nothing this club does is ever good enough...but let's look at the past to confirm that, instead of actually getting behind the club and the administration to pull us into a better future...this administration has so far shown far more an ANY administration in the saints past...will it lead to a premiership? I don't know, but they seem to be getting us into a position than pretty much any administration has in the past.....

but then again, I have a feeling that saints could win a flag and you would complain that it wasn't done well enough....

 

[St Neil]

The Suns are going to have multiple top ten picks this year, the Lions another top ten. Surely you can see the difference between that and Owens and Windy who were picked in the 20s and 40s and Fincher, who knows where he goes but nowhere near the top ten.

Chris Scott was bagging out father sons the other day it's not only us questioning the system.

According to Jon Ralph, a current mock has Gold Coast matching bids with picks 1 (Uwland) & 4 (Patterson) while Brisbane matches with pick 2 (Annable).

Sydney will match with pick 13 (King).

Carlton will match with pick 7 (Dean - F/S).

Honestly, this has now got to the point where the whole draft is utterly gangrenous. More unjustifiable top 5 picks for Brisbane and Gold Coast while Sydney gets a nice little bonus after their first pick.

The draft is putrid. Without credibility and totally corrupted.

It’s time. No more concessions for anyone. Immediately.

In a perverse way, I would take pleasure if any club had the guts to just bid on all of these blokes (very early in the draft) and turned the whole thing into a farce. Because that’s what it is.

In fact, get rid of the bloody draft. Blow it up. Have a salary cap only and enforce it ruthlessly with crippling penalties that can be both prospective and retrospective.

If necessary, the AFL spends money on a dedicated department with strict and rigorous disclosure requirements that doesn’t exempt marketing and third party deals as part of the cap.

Probably won’t ever happen, which is a shame. The draft has become part of the AFL publicity hogging machine.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[St Neil]

I think the system will change once people see gold coast getting 3-4 first rounders after a potential deep finals run. But once again, the afl being REACTIVE not PROACTIVE. The afl have been a reactive league forever and won't change rules until a rule topples over, instead of foreseeing that it's quite obvious itll happen.

It is very important that West Coast and Richmond have the guts to lead the way here. They will have the first 4 picks.

If Gold Coast and Brisbane both finish top 4. and have to match three bids in the top 4, then I suspect that could be a tipping point for the AFL.

They would be embarrassed and cop a lot of justified scrutiny.

 

[goodie23]

It is very important that West Coast and Richmond have the guts to lead the way here. They will have the first 4 picks.

If Gold Coast and Brisbane both finish top 4. and have to match three bids in the top 4, then I suspect that could be a tipping point for the AFL.

They would be embarrassed and cop a lot of justified scrutiny.

Highly doubt that'll happen because clubs are too scared of offending each other and in this case pissing off the AFL. 2020 was the one year clubs had the guts and that particular draft class with all its questions contributed. It'll be the same farce that saw Naicos fall to 4 and the Ashcrofts taken at 2 and 5.

 

[StFly]

The no. of people essentially arguing Collingwood are were they are now after completely f**king rooting their salary cap and having to effectively salary dump the quality of Treloar and Grundy without getting access to Daicos' and Moore for peanuts completely blows my ****ing mind.

If the Saints made the same mistake. FMD Owens, Windhager and Fincher who all clubs had access to around market value would carry us to the last dance right ? .... right?!

I know, I jest. It really is Bassats and Lyons fault for trying to right the ship.

Not to mention;

Lyon gets appointed.
They also appoint Geoff Walsh to head the dept.
Walsh leaves, the pops back at AFL head office later.

It's almost like we planned for everything to be aligned and then be immediately disregarded for people to level it at one person and one person only cause we never make nice decisions and shit happens.

 

[Mr_R0b0t]

According to Jon Ralph, a current mock has Gold Coast matching bids with picks 1 (Uwland) & 4 (Patterson) while Brisbane matches with pick 2 (Annable).

Sydney will match with pick 13 (King).

Carlton will match with pick 7 (Dean - F/S).

Honestly, this has now got to the point where the whole draft is utterly gangrenous. More unjustifiable top 5 picks for Brisbane and Gold Coast while Sydney gets a nice little bonus after their first pick.

The draft is putrid. Without credibility and totally corrupted.

It’s time. No more concessions for anyone. Immediately.

In a perverse way, I would take pleasure if any club had the guts to just bid on all of these blokes (very early in the draft) and turned the whole thing into a farce. Because that’s what it is.

In fact, get rid of the bloody draft. Blow it up. Have a salary cap only and enforce it ruthlessly with crippling penalties that can be both prospective and retrospective.

If necessary, the AFL spends money on a dedicated department with strict and rigorous disclosure requirements that doesn’t exempt marketing and third party deals as part of the cap.

Probably won’t ever happen, which is a shame. The draft has become part of the AFL publicity hogging machine.

Sorry for the rant.

Thanks St Neil. As an interesting side topic, I’m not certain if Carlton have the points to match an early pick. They may need to get creative

 

[botts]

Thanks St Neil. As an interesting side topic, I’m not certain if Carlton have the points to match an early pick. They may need to get creative

Well they are going to get band one compo for TDK so going to be interesting what they can do

 

[akaifu]

Thanks St Neil. As an interesting side topic, I’m not certain if Carlton have the points to match an early pick. They may need to get creative

They'll probably get second round compo for Jack Silvagni which helps

 

[Mat Mann]

Look I love a good old fashioned sook as much as the next toddler, but I was replying to Teflon's suggestion that our abominable past 15 years has nothing to do with our own incompetence… which is cult-level stupidity.

I'll give you the tip: We royally ****ed recruitment for 18 years straight - that's why we have been floundering for the past 15 years.

Here's a quick recap:

High picks flushed
2003
Pick 8 - Raph Clark
2004
Pick 17 - Andrew McQualter
Pick 33 - Cain Ackland
2006
Pick 27 - Brad Howard
2007
Pick 9 - Ben McEvoy
2008
Pick 13 - Tom Lynch
2009
Pick 32 - Nicholas Winmar
2010
Pick 24 - Jamie Cripps

Then we went for the weight of numbers approach:
2011
Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever, Maister, Dunnell, Shenton, Stayley, Minchington
2012
Tom Lee, Saad, Milera, Wright, White, Murdoch, Saunders, Pierce
2013
Hickey, Longer, Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Delaney, Savage, Curren, Templeton, Weller, Holmes
2014
McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie, Lonie, Saad, Payne
2015
Carlisle, Gresham, White, Rice, O’Kearney, Coughlan,
2016
Long, Battle, Phillips
2017
Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, Langlands, Pierce, Brown,
2018
King, Bytel, Parker, Hind, Young
2019
Hill, Howard, Ryder, Mayo, Byrnes, Connolly, Bell
2020
Allison, Highmore, Higgins, Crouch, McKernan

Ross, Webster, Steele & Higgins have been good pick-ups to varying degrees, then some success on smokies from the rookie draft: Sinclair, Marshall & Wilkie

On the rare occasions we did select a decent player, we punted them for more scratchies - Stanley, McEvoy, Lynch, Gresham, Acres, Long, Battle

We've used valuable draft capital and/or cap space on: Watts, Lovett, Longer, Lee, Freeman, Hickey, Carlisle, Stevens, Hannebery, Hill, Howard, Jones, Dow, Henry,

Things look better from 2021 but we are still shit because we have SFA to show from the 18 years preceding it, which means our 23 - 35 core is threadbare. This is why we have been shit for so long.

I can count 15 clubs that have either won a flag or have been in a position to challenge for one over the past 10 years, leaving only Essendon, North & us.

Alternatively: It's all Gold Coast's fault.

your missing the point of what I'm saying

we can't attract quality players either via trade or FA. Hannaberry, Hill, Jones. We've had to either overpay $ overpay tradewise or both.

Those other teams you mention have always been able to attract players, no matter the ladder or list state.

Go look at the Pies drafting or even the Hawks, they have blown high draft picks at a frequent rate.

it's the clubs ability to source players outside the draft that I call into question. Historically, we don't attract big names, so we are left with the draft, and yes we've screwed it, we are not alone though, and now the draft is so borked,, our top 5? pick will 10 if we are lucky, for the 3rd year in a row the 1st round will be 30 picks deep.

for us to compete for a flag we need to be almost perfect in everything we do, for other clubs, the margin is far wider and allows for more mistakes

Have a look at GCS, how many picks have they screwed, given concessions, and now 7 players in 3 years from the 1st round, how are we supposed to compete??

 

[L_W_P]

Look I love a good old fashioned sook as much as the next toddler, but I was replying to Teflon's suggestion that our abominable past 15 years has nothing to do with our own incompetence… which is cult-level stupidity.

I'll give you the tip: We royally ****ed recruitment for 18 years straight - that's why we have been floundering for the past 15 years.

Here's a quick recap:

High picks flushed
2003
Pick 8 - Raph Clark
2004
Pick 17 - Andrew McQualter
Pick 33 - Cain Ackland
2006
Pick 27 - Brad Howard
2007
Pick 9 - Ben McEvoy
2008
Pick 13 - Tom Lynch
2009
Pick 32 - Nicholas Winmar
2010
Pick 24 - Jamie Cripps

Then we went for the weight of numbers approach:
2011
Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever, Maister, Dunnell, Shenton, Stayley, Minchington
2012
Tom Lee, Saad, Milera, Wright, White, Murdoch, Saunders, Pierce
2013
Hickey, Longer, Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Delaney, Savage, Curren, Templeton, Weller, Holmes
2014
McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie, Lonie, Saad, Payne
2015
Carlisle, Gresham, White, Rice, O’Kearney, Coughlan,
2016
Long, Battle, Phillips
2017
Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, Langlands, Pierce, Brown,
2018
King, Bytel, Parker, Hind, Young
2019
Hill, Howard, Ryder, Mayo, Byrnes, Connolly, Bell
2020
Allison, Highmore, Higgins, Crouch, McKernan

Ross, Webster, Steele & Higgins have been good pick-ups to varying degrees, then some success on smokies from the rookie draft: Sinclair, Marshall & Wilkie

On the rare occasions we did select a decent player, we punted them for more scratchies - Stanley, McEvoy, Lynch, Gresham, Acres, Long, Battle

We've used valuable draft capital and/or cap space on: Watts, Lovett, Longer, Lee, Freeman, Hickey, Carlisle, Stevens, Hannebery, Hill, Howard, Jones, Dow, Henry,

Things look better from 2021 but we are still shit because we have SFA to show from the 18 years preceding it, which means our 23 - 35 core is threadbare. This is why we have been shit for so long.

I can count 15 clubs that have either won a flag or have been in a position to challenge for one over the past 10 years, leaving only Essendon, North & us.

Alternatively: It's all Gold Coast's fault.

Now do Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond, Melbourne and Hawthorn. Tell us all the first round picks they stuffed up.

Essendon crippled their club with the drugs saga.

North are in the same boat as us: A small market Vic club that has to scratch and claw for survival and massively overpay anyone coming to, or staying with, the club.

 

[magd2992]

They'll probably get second round compo for Jack Silvagni which helps

Who they got cheap as a f/s

System’s cooked.

 

[Teflon]

I dont understand why this is so hard for people to understand.

Two things can be true. We have made poor decisions as a club that have largely contributes to where as are. But.... other clubs have made similar poor decisions but been able to avoid the bottom due to the advantages they receive in the current draft/trade system. Sydney and Collingwood are two prime examples of this. The system gives them room to make poor decisions compared to us, who need to make every decision a good one to move forward.

Making mistakes also doesnt prevent us from advocating for change to the system to make it a more equal playing field for every club. We have as much right as any other club to air our grievances with the draft and state any changes we think could benefit the competition as a whole. This notion that we have to wait until a certain level of success before fighting for equality is what will keep us down and small.

Agree
But there’s clearly not enough self flagellation in that for some
Now sit in a corner and do your 20 “saints are shit “ mantra with the whip in the other hand…

 

[kernelT]

Now do Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond, Melbourne and Hawthorn. Tell us all the first round picks they stuffed up.

Essendon crippled their club with the drugs saga.

North are in the same boat as us: A small market Vic club that has to scratch and claw for survival and massively overpay anyone coming to, or staying with, the club.

your missing the point of what I'm saying

we can't attract quality players either via trade or FA. Hannaberry, Hill, Jones. We've had to either overpay $ overpay tradewise or both.

Those other teams you mention have always been able to attract players, no matter the ladder or list state.

Go look at the Pies drafting or even the Hawks, they have blown high draft picks at a frequent rate.

it's the clubs ability to source players outside the draft that I call into question. Historically, we don't attract big names, so we are left with the draft, and yes we've screwed it, we are not alone though, and now the draft is so borked,, our top 5? pick will 10 if we are lucky, for the 3rd year in a row the 1st round will be 30 picks deep.

for us to compete for a flag we need to be almost perfect in everything we do, for other clubs, the margin is far wider and allows for more mistakes

Have a look at GCS, how many picks have they screwed, given concessions, and now 7 players in 3 years from the 1st round, how are we supposed to compete??

You’re preaching to an evangelical minister about the academies, but I reject the idea that we have to be an almost perfect organisation to attract talent.

I put it to you that if we had managed to get just a handful of drafts between 2003 - 2020 right, then we wouldn’t have been in a death spiral for 15 years. Instead of keeping it simple and doing the obvious, we went on draft gambling benders.

Melbourne, Richmond, Dogs, blues, hawks all built off a strong draft base, adding players to fill needs after setting up with good drafting. You could say the same about Collingwood, their best players came via the draft… FS issues aside.