About time MM got some praise.

[Frederlick]

I'm sure most have read this from AFL website but the thing is this kind of coaching isn't a one off. I can't believe there is a thread on the AFL board where MM is listed as someone who may be sacked! The key phrase is 'undrestimated', hope they keep doing it as every advantage counts.

"It was always going to be a tough assignment for Essendon and Collingwood. The two teams opened round five last Wednesday on Anzac Day – fewer than 100 hours after their round four encounters – yet Mick Malthouse's ability to guide his troops to a stunning victory over an in-form Essendon on Anzac Day was testament to his outstanding coaching ability. It was an excellent showing from the Magpies, considering they lost to Port Adelaide at the MCG in round four, after leading for the majority of the match. Conversely, Essendon smashed St Kilda in round four and few gave Collingwood much hope of victory. The two sides did have their injury concerns, yet Malthouse backed his recent debutants, young players and wise-heads to produce the goods – which they did superbly. Although it didn't always seem that way – the Pies trailed by 19 points after just eight minutes into the match – Collingwood's 16-point victory was one to saviour, particularly on Anzac Day. You've got to hand it to the two-time premiership coach, as his imprint on the win could not be underestimated."

 

[MarkT]

I’d praise him if we had the best list in the comp. which we should have and I’d praise him if recognised deficiencies instead of actually allowing them t get worse over many many years. Last year we were 8/3 and fell in a hole because our list wasn’t good enough and MM couldn’t counter oppositions when they worked us out. The sooner he’s sacked the sooner we can seriously set about winning premierships. He has had more than enough time to prove he can’t do it. Unfortunately he’ll be here for a few years yet.

Just on ANZAC day, if his planning, coaching and tactics got us a win then what did they do the Saturday before? MM coached two games at once and got a win and a loss. That’s par for the course for Collingwood under MM – AVEREAGE!

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

He had a good day. O'Brien on Lucas was a brave move and one that deserves tons of credit, although I heard somewhere that It was actually Presti''s suggestion. Some of the kids are coming along well.

However lets not get overly excited. So far we've beaten Essendon North and Richmond, three of the bottom four teams last year.

 

[DWil6]

However lets not get overly excited. So far we've beaten Essendon North and Richmond, three of the bottom four teams last year.

Fair point. Also 2 of those teams almost had us.

 

[doppleganger]

Just on ANZAC day, if his planning, coaching and tactics got us a win then what did they do the Saturday before? MM coached two games at once and got a win and a loss. That’s par for the course for Collingwood under MM – AVEREAGE!

If it didn't rain the pies would have beaten Port, the rain made Lade and the burgoynes that much more important and they dominated the increased number of stoppages.

Look at what Port did to the saints in the wet, absolutely smahsed em, yet we lead them all day and if not for uncharacteristic errors from Clement we would have had a big gap on them at half and 3/4 time which may have been enough to get us over the line!

Yes his list management and recruiting has been ordinary, but game day coaching is usually very good

 

[doppleganger]

He had a good day. O'Brien on Lucas was a brave move and one that deserves tons of credit, although I heard somewhere that It was actually Presti''s suggestion. Some of the kids are coming along well.

However lets not get overly excited. So far we've beaten Essendon North and Richmond, three of the bottom four teams last year.

Richmond finished 9th last year, and spanked us in the wet!

No idea where this wet weather football suits Collingwood theory comes from, 02-03 we were good in the wet, since then have been terrible

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Richmond finished 9th last year, and spanked us in the wet!

My bad, BUT>>>>>>>>

Richmond were the worst ninth placed team in history. They were a bottom four team in ability, God knows how they won so many games last year.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

No idea where this wet weather football suits Collingwood theory comes from, 02-03 we were good in the wet, since then have been terrible

Its part of our transition from a team of fat assed wombats to younger quicker more skilled players. We'll be poor in the wet until Thomas Pendlebury Cloke etc get better with a few more years experience. Its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

[doppleganger]

My bad, BUT>>>>>>>>

Richmond were the worst ninth placed team in history. They were a bottom four team in ability, God knows how they won so many games last year.

That doesn't even make sense, worst ninth placed team in history??

Like all ninth placed finishers they were middle of the road, not rubbish but not good either.

 

[doppleganger]

Its part of our transition from a team of fat assed wombats to younger quicker more skilled players. We'll be poor in the wet until Thomas Pendlebury Cloke etc get better with a few more years experience. Its a price I'm happy to pay.

Yep replacing hard bodies like Freeborn, Betheras, McGough, J.Cloke, Molloy, McKee, Steinfort hurt us in regards to wet weather footy

If we had played Port in dry conditions, i have no doubt we would have won, but that is just how the cards fall

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

That doesn't even make sense, worst ninth placed team in history??

Like all ninth placed finishers they were middle of the road, not rubbish but not good either.

Richmond are rubbish. Have been for 25 years. They often turn it on late in the season when they statistically cant make the finals and are playing for their careers, so they try to impress the coach in the dead rubbers.

The fact we beat them this year when we couldnt last year means nothing except the four points.

 

[Coin_Toss]

He had a good day. O'Brien on Lucas was a brave move and one that deserves tons of credit, although I heard somewhere that It was actually Presti''s suggestion. Some of the kids are coming along well.

It doesn't sound like Malthouse to play a kid on the in-form forward in the competition, credit where credit is due, but I know he expects big things of Harry, so he's got to play on the gun forwards.

Yeah, Mick deserves some praise for the way he's coached this year, I didn't expect him to play as many kids as he has debuted thus far and Goldsack may be given some experience sooner rather than later.

 

[MarkT]

If it didn't rain the pies would have beaten Port, the rain made Lade and the burgoynes that much more important and they dominated the increased number of stoppages.

I don’t know how you figure that. It rained all day and in fact Port over ran us when it stopped raining. Laide would have smashed Fraser ad Richards because he is a MUCH better ruckman not because it was wet dry or in zero gravity.

It is actually an irrelevant argument though. It did rain and we did lose. If the conditions impacted anything then that is where the coach should be able to counter or play a game style more suited to the conditions. Are we not talking about praising the coach here? You want to offer up excuses. That is precisely the problem. There are always excuses for losing. The major cause of Collingwood losing is a lack of ability compared to our opponents.

Look at what Port did to the saints in the wet, absolutely smahsed em, yet we lead them all day and if not for uncharacteristic errors from Clement we would have had a big gap on them at half and 3/4 time which may have been enough to get us over the line!

MCG v AAMI. Forget the home ground thing, Saints ARE NOT the yardstick and a 5 games coach is not comparison point for MM.

As for the uncharacteristic errors, it is like all the GF excuses we offer up. The reality is small things cost us because we aren’t good enough to win when they occur. It is a recurring theme and until we jettison the excuses not much will change.

Yes his list management and recruiting has been ordinary, but game day coaching is usually very good

No it isn’t. Sometimes it is very good, sometimes poor and sometimes irrelevant. The correct achievement level for a bloke of his experience and earning should be virtually always significantly better than the opposition. A few blokes should be competitive with him.

The 2003 GF was pathetic from Thursday night to Saturday night. When better to measure a coach if you want to win premierships?

Your dismissal of the list management issues though is what really annoys me about our club. It is THE fundamental issue not a side issue. I’d rather have a coach that couldn’t coach but could spot talent, spot duds and spot list deficiencies and find solutions. At least when he left he’d leave the club well placed and at least his poor coaching would bring draft picks. MM has only brought another 5 years of rebuilding in the hope of future potential competitiveness IF New improve everything about our list management.

 

[doppleganger]

The fact we beat them this year when we couldnt last year means nothing except the four points.

not sure what this means??

last year we beat port, this year we lost......does that also mean nothing except for the four points?

 

[MarkT]

It doesn't sound like Malthouse to play a kid on the in-form forward in the competition, credit where credit is due, but I know he expects big things of Harry, so he's got to play on the gun forwards.

Yeah, Mick deserves some praise for the way he's coached this year, I didn't expect him to play as many kids as he has debuted thus far and Goldsack may be given some experience sooner rather than later.

I know people will just accuse me of bias and negativity but IMO MM has drawn on desperation. It isn’t master stroke to play kids when you have little option and you are playing crap opposition. Credit for MM playing O’Brien on Lucas, regardless of whether it was his idea or not. It was still his call. It was the sort of thing a Sheedy may pull of and the sort of thing we seen exactly how many times in 7/8 years from MM?

If MM was a really great coach we’d be saying this was like the time…..

 

[DWil6]

I’d rather have a coach that couldn’t coach but could spot talent, spot duds and spot list deficiencies and find solutions. At least when he left he’d leave the club well placed and at least his poor coaching would bring draft picks. MM has only brought another 5 years of rebuilding in the hope of future potential competitiveness IF New improve everything about our list management.

Makes me wonder exactly how much input he has on deciding who should be drafted. Perhaps the blame could be laid at the feet of the scouts or recruiting manager. Or, indeed, those who recruit the staff.

 

[doppleganger]

I don’t know how you figure that. It rained all day and in fact Port over ran us when it stopped raining. Laide would have smashed Fraser ad Richards because he is a MUCH better ruckman not because it was wet dry or in zero gravity.

What is Port's strength, its midfield and winning the clearances, when it is wet what becomes more important........winning the clearances and getting the ball moving ur way

When it is wet there are more contests and clearances to be won, Lade, the Burgoynes, and the Cornes's lapped it up, it suited them perfectly

It is actually an irrelevant argument though. It did rain and we did lose. If the conditions impacted anything then that is where the coach should be able to counter or play a game style more suited to the conditions. Are we not talking about praising the coach here? You want to offer up excuses. That is precisely the problem. There are always excuses for losing. The major cause of Collingwood losing is a lack of ability compared to our opponents. MCG v AAMI. Forget the home ground thing, Saints ARE NOT the yardstick and a 5 games coach is not comparison point for MM.

Was simply showing how Port are great in the wet, we went with them whilst the Saints (who many rate as a better team than the pies) were smashed.

The major cause of the pies losing was the game wasn't played on our terms or strenghts, because the weather didn't allow it to be..........that is MM's fault is it??

As for the uncharacteristic errors, it is like all the GF excuses we offer up. The reality is small things cost us because we aren’t good enough to win when they occur. It is a recurring theme and until we jettison the excuses not much will change.No it isn’t. Sometimes it is very good, sometimes poor and sometimes irrelevant. The correct achievement level for a bloke of his experience and earning should be virtually always significantly better than the opposition. A few blokes should be competitive with him.

Clement has been brilliant all season except for one game against port where he gave up 3 goals which kept Port close, it was an abberation. MM's fault again i suppose

The 2003 GF was pathetic from Thursday night to Saturday night. When better to measure a coach if you want to win premierships?

Yep, he didn't handle not having Rocca in the team

Your dismissal of the list management issues though is what really annoys me about our club. It is THE fundamental issue not a side issue. I’d rather have a coach that couldn’t coach but could spot talent, spot duds and spot list deficiencies and find solutions. At least when he left he’d leave the club well placed and at least his poor coaching would bring draft picks. MM has only brought another 5 years of rebuilding in the hope of future potential competitiveness IF New improve everything about our list management.

Id rather separate the two, have a coach who could coach on game day, and have a recruiting team responsible for recruiting and talent spotting etc.

 

[FIGJAM]

I know people will just accuse me of bias…..

Pretty much!

I spose you better back your convictions of last year. I disagreed, despite agreeing with many of your points.

I stand by the fact that if you get him the cattle, he is a great extractor of talent.

He is however ****en useless at spotting it, and we have prevented him from making trades for WCE duds and having too much to say in drafts.

Our post 2003 drafting has seen us overcome the recession we had to have, and the recession most pundits think we should still be in. But Malthouse is the one getting the kids to do what's required. And I always knew he could.

But it's early in the season and we need to knock off some real teams, starting this Saturday night in the city of mullets.

 

[Hadders]

Gotta disagree with you there MarkT.

I've gotta say our list management hasn't been too bad in the last few years. Sure it hasn't been top rate but if you look at it from a distance it's OK.

02 and 03 we played in Grand Finals which did require some management to get the list up to that standard considering MM joined (i think) around 2000. Now I know you'll say I'm accepting failure etc. but the achievements made in those two years can't be completely written off as failures. Sure we didn't win the flag but we came up against one of the great teams of the modern era and weren't good enough at the time.

Since we've been down a bit but IMO we're right in the middle of a rebuild from the middle of the ladder, not an easy thing to do in itself, and we'll be ready to have another massive tilt at the flag in 2009-2010.

IMO that's a pretty good record to rebuild a list and have it challenging again 6 years after it was last pushing for a flag.

 

[MarkT]

I've gotta say our list management hasn't been too bad in the last few years. Sure it hasn't been top rate but if you look at it from a distance it's OK.

Sorry but I can’t agree. We have drafted better with early picks we “won” for being crap and our list has the same holes it has had for the entire time MM has been at the club. I saw mass hysteria at the second coming of Steve McKee after ANZAC Day!

02 and 03 we played in Grand Finals which did require some management to get the list up to that standard considering MM joined (i think) around 2000. Now I know you'll say I'm accepting failure etc. but the achievements made in those two years can't be completely written off as failures.

No but in the context of what we did about losing we failed dismally.

Sure we didn't win the flag but we came up against one of the great teams of the modern era and weren't good enough at the time.

OK but in 2005 Port were. Where were we?

Since we've been down a bit but IMO we're right in the middle of a rebuild from the middle of the ladder, not an easy thing to do in itself, and we'll be ready to have another massive tilt at the flag in 2009-2010.

IMO that's a pretty good record to rebuild a list and have it challenging again 6 years after it was last pushing for a flag.[/QUOTE]Perhaps if that is what happens. My concern is that history says we are asking a person who failed to succeed at the thing he already failed at and not for the first time. MM has failed 3 times to rebuild a premiership list. Once at Footscray, once at WCE and once at Collingwood.

 

[MarkT]

I spose you better back your convictions of last year.

They were actually my convictions of 2 to 3 years back. The Freo game early in 2005 was the last straw for me but it all began on GF Day 2003.

 

[understudy]

He'll get praise if he lands us a premiership.

You dont get praise for just doing your job and delivering a standard win.

 

[prO]

Sorry but I can’t agree. We have drafted better with early picks we “won” for being crap and our list has the same holes it has had for the entire time MM has been at the club.

Pendlebury is looking so far as this years Rising Star. To put it in perspective he would have been taken much later had we not picked him up. It was seen as a gamble taking him at pick 5. A gamble which clearly is paying off by the good judgment of our recruiters. Whether we "won" those picks by losing games is irrelevant. What is relevant however is whether our recruiters have an eye for picking talent to increase the depth on our list.

 

[anzacs]

Still one of the best going around, despite his illogical detractors

 

[Frederlick]

They were actually my convictions of 2 to 3 years back. The Freo game early in 2005 was the last straw for me but it all began on GF Day 2003.

You could have had Jock Mchale and Norm Smith both coaching Collingwood on GF day in 03 and they still would have lost. No Rocca, and the forward line might has well have stayed on the bench, I mean come on, we were relying on Tarrant against Brisbane's monster backs and deadly midfield. Hardly the coaches fault that his key player was rubbed out. BS actually given the B Hall fiasco in 05. What I will concede is that the duds from West Coast have not helped his cause, although how about credit where due in that Caracella looked good last year until injured, Medhurst has been serviceable so far and even Woewodin gave 2 decent years of footy. If we accept that duds like Morrison and Cummings are MMs fault, we should also accept that he has some input into the better players recruited.