Academy v Father-Sons

[RUNVS]

To provide development pathways for areas and players where there weren't previously? What development pathway would Nick have gone into without the academy? Moving to Victoria like the Roos boys?

Rampe had to move to Victoria to even get noticed. Most potential AFL players would not do that as it was a massive gamble on his part. He had to do it though because no one noticed him in NSW.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Yes, because Wagga Wagga is an AFL area, always has been. That is freely acknowledged. What the academies were setup for was because there were only 5 or 6 AFL players in the entire league coming from the largest city in the country.

I am over having to continually back track over simple points that a young teenager should have no trouble conceptualising.

You have nothing to say that is of any value to me.

For the sake of both of us, you have to go on ignore.

 

[RUNVS]

I am over having to continually back track over simple points that a young teenager should have no trouble conceptualising.

You have nothing to say that is of any value to me.

For the sake of both of us, you have to go on ignore.

Fine with me. You clearly don't seem to be understanding my points anyway.

 

[doona]

It must be weird for him to be talked about like he was some sort of possession that two (or three) different parties are arguing about who owns him.

Most people are not fighting over who owns him in this thread. Most of this thread is about whether Blakey should have the option of choosing between a) The 2 father/son clubs or b) The 2 father/son clubs and the academy club.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Most people are not fighting over who owns him in this thread. Most of this thread is about whether Blakey should have the option of choosing between a) The 2 father/son clubs or b) The 2 father/son clubs and the academy club.

Praise the lord!!!!

One of theSydney fans finally understands the simplicity of this concept.

Take a bow, good sir.

 

[Colonial]

Most people are not fighting over who owns him in this thread. Most of this thread is about whether Blakey should have the option of choosing between a) The 2 father/son clubs or b) The 2 father/son clubs and the academy club.

Most. Very true.

There is 1 or 2 demanding that he is Norths, as long as he is good of course.

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[tigerwill]

Fine with me. You clearly don't seem to be understanding my points anyway.

It looks like you're joining an illustrious club. Ignored member # 237. But he'll still keep checking "ignored content"

 

[Colonial]

It looks like you're joining an illustrious club. Ignored member # 237. But he'll still keep checking "ignored content"

I swear he was up to #300

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[BloodySwan]

Most people are not fighting over who owns him in this thread. Most of this thread is about whether Blakey should have the option of choosing between a) The 2 father/son clubs or b) The 2 father/son clubs and the academy club.

Nope, father-son has an implicit relationship that a club owns them from the day they were born. Academies are an arrangement the kid/parents make during the child's teenage years.

The second argument is stating should Blakey not wish to play for his father's team he is to be put at a disadvantage compared to other kids growing up their area through lack of opportunity and development

 

[TheKITC]

So where were those players in any noteworthy number in the decade and a half before the academies? Where were these ready AFL players coming out of the Tweed or Newcastle or Brisbane's northern suburbs? Why had the spigot been dry for going on two decades before the academies settled in?

You've selectively answered bits of my post and omitted others like the parts where I say I like the academies and how they are giving kids in those areas who might not play the game another path and developing them. As for noteworthy players prior to academies from QLD and NSW/ACT...

You mean players like Jason Akermanis, Haydn Bunton Sr., James Hird, Wayne Carey, Jason Dunstall, Shane Crawford, Alex Jesaulenko, Nick Riewoldt, Michael Voss, The Danihers, John Longmire, Lenny Hayes, Paul Kelly, Dayne Beams, Jarrad McVeigh, Tom Hawkins, Phil Davis, Brett Kirk, Kurt Tippett, Sam Gilbert, Dayne Zorko, Marcus Ashcroft, Luke Breust, David Armitage, Charlie Dixon, Isaac Smith, Rory Thompson, Clint Bizzell, Leo Barry, Che Cockatoo-Collins, Kieran Jack, Adam Schneider, Taylor Walker, Nick Davis, Brent Staker, Ben Hudson, Mick Conlon, Dean Solomon, Jarrod Witts, Lewis Roberts-Thomson, Jarrod Harbrow, David Hale, Hamish McIntosh, Dane Rampe, Sam Rowe, Greg Stafford, Daniel Merrett, Matt Suckling, Harry Cunningham?

I'm sure I've missed a fair few. Limiting it to a decade and a half would be confusing (although it suits your argument) as all areas ebb and flow with talent.

To what end? For years the Hunter and NNSW has sent rep teams to carinvals packed with kids who've been playing for a number of years. How many go into the AFL from there?

This is the murky part, perhaps there is zones within the academy zones that are more lenient for rural area/areas where AFL is as rare as hens teeth? I really don't know. I just feel and it is an opinion, that players who would have made it anyway are being claimed and deliberately spruiked to us as success stories for the code and the academies whereas they are making is despite everything. The list of names above indicates players make it from areas all over those states. Do the academies make it easier for certain players to get exposure and experience to things they otherwise wouldn't? 100%. Are champion junior players who make it anyway being claimed under the guise of 'promoting the game' and bullshitting the public saying they wouldn't be here/playing AFL without academies? 100%.

Why not? It's not like the Roos boys went amazingly despite having amazing footballing genetics.

If you think he wouldn't be playing/be exposed to AFL at some level if it wasn't for the Sydney academy like kids in Cairns or Bankstown then I really don't know what else to say. It's against the spirit of how the AFL justify the academies... publically anyway.

To provide development pathways for areas and players where there weren't previously? What development pathway would Nick have gone into without the academy? Moving to Victoria like the Roos boys?

A similar one that Nick Riewoldt or any of the other modern examples I listed above went into? I'm not saying the academies don't provide great things in terms of development because they clearly do and are great from this regard for 90+% of players, but at the same time I stand by my opinion that the rules surrounding them provide loopholes and outs for justifying their existence when talking about players who are good enough/guns regardless of their existence.

 

[Kummerspeck]

You've selectively answered bits of my post and omitted others like the parts where I say I like the academies and how they are giving kids in those areas who might not play the game another path and developing them. As for noteworthy players prior to academies from QLD and NSW/ACT...

Why would I answer those parts? What's there to discuss?

You mean players like Jason Akermanis, Haydn Bunton Sr., James Hird, Wayne Carey, Jason Dunstall, Shane Crawford, Alex Jesaulenko, Nick Riewoldt, Michael Voss, The Danihers, John Longmire, Lenny Hayes, Paul Kelly, Dayne Beams, Jarrad McVeigh, Tom Hawkins, Phil Davis, Brett Kirk, Kurt Tippett, Sam Gilbert, Dayne Zorko, Marcus Ashcroft, Luke Breust, David Armitage, Charlie Dixon, Isaac Smith, Rory Thompson, Clint Bizzell, Leo Barry, Che Cockatoo-Collins, Kieran Jack, Adam Schneider, Taylor Walker, Nick Davis, Brent Staker, Ben Hudson, Mick Conlon, Dean Solomon, Jarrod Witts, Lewis Roberts-Thomson, Jarrod Harbrow, David Hale, Hamish McIntosh, Dane Rampe, Sam Rowe, Greg Stafford, Daniel Merrett, Matt Suckling, Harry Cunningham?

I'm sure I've missed a fair few. Limiting it to a decade and a half would be confusing (although it suits your argument) as all areas ebb and flow with talent.

I'm limiting it to a decade a half because people like to argue that because a handful of players were drafted from the state 20 years ago that there is no need for any pathway development. I also suggest you review your copy pasted list, as it involves players who were involved in the precursor to the academy system, players who spent their school years in Melbourne, and those who had to move to Melbourne to get drafted. Hawkins, Walker, Rampe, Suckling, Smith, just as a starting point. 45 players in the last 60 odd years if you want to include Bunton Snr, most of whom were drafted prior to the early 2000s. So again, what happened? Why hasn't this non stop spout of high quality players continued?

This is the murky part, perhaps there is zones within the academy zones that are more lenient for rural area/areas where AFL is as rare as hens teeth? I really don't know. I just feel and it is an opinion, that players who would have made it anyway are being claimed and deliberately spruiked to us as success stories for the code and the academies whereas they are making is despite everything. The list of names above indicates players make it from areas all over those states.

On a timeline of almost 50 years, you could come up with much, much better lists from every state.

Are champion junior players who make it anyway being claimed under the guise of 'promoting the game' and bullshitting the public saying they wouldn't be here/playing AFL without academies? 100%.

Who are these champion junior players from AFL areas who would have made it?

If you think he wouldn't be playing/be exposed to AFL at some level if it wasn't for the Sydney academy like kids in Cairns or Bankstown then I really don't know what else to say. It's against the spirit of how the AFL justify the academies... publically anyway.

Doesn't really address my point. The fact that he's the son of a former AFL player doesn't really carry much weight in NSW. Look at Paul Kelly's kids, Paul Roos, any number. He definitely would have been exposed, but that doesn't guarantee greatness as the main line of argument seems to be.

A similar one that Nick Riewoldt or any of the other modern examples I listed above went into?

So, moving to Melbourne for school like Hawkins, Suckling? Going undrafted and moving to a development league like Smith or Rampe? Being born in an era where clubs could sign up players and bring them to Melbourne when they were 16 like Longmire and Jezza? Which one do you think Blakey would have gone down?

 

[dlanod]

You've selectively answered bits of my post and omitted others like the parts where I say I like the academies and how they are giving kids in those areas who might not play the game another path and developing them. As for noteworthy players prior to academies from QLD and NSW/ACT...

You mean players like Jason Akermanis, Haydn Bunton Sr., James Hird, Wayne Carey, Jason Dunstall, Shane Crawford, Alex Jesaulenko, Nick Riewoldt, Michael Voss, The Danihers, John Longmire, Lenny Hayes, Paul Kelly, Dayne Beams, Jarrad McVeigh, Tom Hawkins, Phil Davis, Brett Kirk, Kurt Tippett, Sam Gilbert, Dayne Zorko, Marcus Ashcroft, Luke Breust, David Armitage, Charlie Dixon, Isaac Smith, Rory Thompson, Clint Bizzell, Leo Barry, Che Cockatoo-Collins, Kieran Jack, Adam Schneider, Taylor Walker, Nick Davis, Brent Staker, Ben Hudson, Mick Conlon, Dean Solomon, Jarrod Witts, Lewis Roberts-Thomson, Jarrod Harbrow, David Hale, Hamish McIntosh, Dane Rampe, Sam Rowe, Greg Stafford, Daniel Merrett, Matt Suckling, Harry Cunningham?

I'm sure I've missed a fair few. Limiting it to a decade and a half would be confusing (although it suits your argument) as all areas ebb and flow with talent.

The AFL looked at the previous system, where they were the funding and driving force, and decided it was not up to scratch after failing over the course of the previous decade.

Of your honestly impressive list:

• 26 predates this decade of failure.
• 5 come from traditional AFL areas, most of which have since been removed from academy areas.
• 4 moved interstate in order to be drafted.
• 1 actually came from the GWS academy (Harry Cunningham says hi!).

13 draftees over the course of a decade where 1000s of players were drafted in a time when the AFL was trying to push into two states with over half the population of Australia is not a great result. That's why the AFL abolished their old system where they were responsible for the drafting of players from the two states and instead introduced the academy. We're now well over 13 draftees over half the time.

 

[TheKITC]

Why would I answer those parts? What's there to discuss?

It was more about eliminating things I'd said and inferring that I'm wholly against the academies and a 'classic Vic that doesn't get it' which gets bandied around here a lot as if it's some kind of end all retort.

I'm limiting it to a decade a half because people like to argue that because a handful of players were drafted from the state 20 years ago that there is no need for any pathway development. I also suggest you review your copy pasted list, as it involves players who were involved in the precursor to the academy system, players who spent their school years in Melbourne, and those who had to move to Melbourne to get drafted. Hawkins, Walker, Rampe, Suckling, Smith, just as a starting point. 45 players in the last 60 odd years if you want to include Bunton Snr, most of whom were drafted prior to the early 2000s. So again, what happened? Why hasn't this non stop spout of high quality players continued?

I didn't copy and paste the list, but again thanks for your subtle jabs in order to seem superior.

You're very disingenuous with your language and to be honest like to put words in my mouth that don't match up with my quotes; it is far more than a handful from those states for starters, there are clearly quite a few names missing too.

I have in no way suggesting that there isn't a need for a pathway development in the northern states. I HAVE NEVER ARGUED THAT. I in fact think the academies serve this purpose well especially for those from 'AFL? wtf is that?' areas and rural towns etc. However, you refuse to acknowledge that players that have made it in the past and will continue to from NSW and QLD that will not be as a direct result of the academies being there and all they offer, as they would have made it anyway, are getting to these clubs for discounted rates. I sound like a broken record but you refuse to address it.

Jacob Hopper admitted he spent 1 week at GWS' academy. Did the Giants develop him and deserve discounted access to him because they flew him up to play a handful of reserves games, gave him a program and let him use their gym? Let's say Nick Riewoldt, would be taken under the guise of 'growing the game' and 'kids who wouldn't be playing AFL', is that what the Academy is meant for? Of course you're happy with it because you'd have a vested interest when it came your turn, but it's a rort in my book.

Until their is a solution to these clubs getting these guns as free (cheap) hits, I think the system stinks.

 

[dlanod]

13 draftees over the course of a decade where 1000s of players were drafted in a time when the AFL was trying to push into two states with over half the population of Australia is not a great result. That's why the AFL abolished their old system where they were responsible for the drafting of players from the two states and instead introduced the academy. We're now well over 13 draftees over half the time.

Heh for the sake of my own curiousity, there have been more than 13 academy graduates that have joined non-northern clubs over the course of the last three drafts: Austin, Weller, Howard, Wagner x2, Buzza, Chol, Cornell, Uebergang, Watson, Macreadie, Garthwaite, Mutch, Himmelberg, Williams, Davis, Lynch, Smith and maybe a couple of more that I'm not fully across.

 

[TheKITC]

The AFL looked at the previous system, where they were the funding and driving force, and decided it was not up to scratch after failing over the course of the previous decade.

Of your honestly impressive list:

• 26 predates this decade of failure.
• 5 come from traditional AFL areas, most of which have since been removed from academy areas.
• 4 moved interstate in order to be drafted.
• 1 actually came from the GWS academy (Harry Cunningham says hi!).

13 draftees over the course of a decade where 1000s of players were drafted in a time when the AFL was trying to push into two states with over half the population of Australia is not a great result. That's why the AFL abolished their old system where they were responsible for the drafting of players from the two states and instead introduced the academy. We're now well over 13 draftees over half the time.

I appreciate the measured response as well as the great investment the AFL has made in these states, it is clearly paying off and I love the idea that a kid from Newcastle/Airlie Beach/Scone/Toowoomba etc. who may have ended up playing Rugby, Basketball or whatever starts playing our game. Again, my concern surrounds those who were already playing the game and on course to make it being taken at a discounted rate. I don't have the answers on how to stop it, but I don't think it's fair that the next Nick Riewoldt or Lenny Hayes goes to a club who then gets a discount to select them just because they live in NSW/QLD. Perhaps no discount in the first round? No Academy selections before 20? I really don't know but a situation like Hopper's was clearly a manipulation against the spirit and reason the Academies exist, I put Blakey in that category too.

As another point, would you acknowledge that the addition of two extra teams and the spreading of talent could also be a factor is more being taken recently from the northern states, possibly skewing the numbers a little bit?

 

[dlanod]

Perhaps no discount in the first round? No Academy selections before 20? I really don't know but a situation like Hopper's was clearly a manipulation against the spirit and reason the Academies exist, I put Blakey in that category too.

I think I've made previous posts I'm largely ok with limiting options like a maximum of one first round choice in a year or similar. There still has to be a balance between the money being put into these and the reward though, so no first rounders is not a great solution. Someone like Hopper would no longer be eligible (his area has been stripped from GWS).

Blakey is a funny situation - there's no way to split the difference between what he might have been in Sydney without development (would he have stagnated or quit, and not been available anyway) versus in the academy (obviously where we are today). Would North fans be so upset if their club was tossing up whether or not to draft a bloke mooted to be drafted with pick 50+ for instance?

Ultimately I think Blakey is a separate situation as I've posted earlier - why should Blakey have his options restricted to father/son options? How is that fair to him as a person? The answer seems to be "history trumps all". If that's the case, why aren't clubs forced to pick up father/son players? After all, "history trumps all".

As another point, would you acknowledge that the addition of two extra teams and the spreading of talent could also be a factor is more being taken recently from the northern states, possibly skewing the numbers a little bit?

I think that introduction is why guys like Aylett, Miles, Townsend, Schulz and others got an AFL career or more of one than they otherwise would have. IMO it's pretty easy to split between the teams' introductions and academy introductions though, as there was a fair gap of three or so years where not many were drafted from either states.

 

[TheKITC]

I think I've made previous posts I'm largely ok with limiting options like a maximum of one first round choice in a year or similar. There still has to be a balance between the money being put into these and the reward though, so no first rounders is not a great solution. Someone like Hopper would no longer be eligible (his area has been stripped from GWS).

I'm glad to at least see some acknowledgement that it isn't perfect or right in it's current state and I do agree about the balance thing, there has to be some reward but at the moment the mix isn't where it should be for my liking.

Aware the Riverina has been taken away from GWS, but the point still remains about his serious lack of involvement in the GWS academy yet his eligibility remaining. Where he's from wasn't really my point...

Blakey is a funny situation - there's no way to split the difference between what he might have been in Sydney without development (would he have stagnated or quit, and not been available anyway) versus in the academy (obviously where we are today). Would North fans be so upset if their club was tossing up whether or not to draft a bloke mooted to be drafted with pick 50+ for instance?

Ultimately I think Blakey is a separate situation as I've posted earlier - why should Blakey have his options restricted to father/son options? How is that fair to him as a person? The answer seems to be "history trumps all". If that's the case, why aren't clubs forced to pick up father/son players? After all, "history trumps all".

Agreed, there's no way they could change it now after he was under the impression he would have an option to stay in Sydney if he wants as well as the Swans investing time and money into him. It is a rare one but I think under the AFL's public justification of academies, he is an anomaly that shouldn't be available to a northern side. It's fair to him as a person like it's fair to every other draftee from around the country. I'm not saying history trumps all, not sure who is saying that but they are probably 50+years old.

I think that introduction is why guys like Aylett, Miles, Townsend, Schulz and others got an AFL career or more of one than they otherwise would have. IMO it's pretty easy to split between the teams' introductions and academy introductions though, as there was a fair gap of three or so years where not many were drafted from either states.

Fair enough, haven't had a look at all but it crossed my mind as a potential reason which could be pretty valid.

 

[dlanod]

Aware the Riverina has been taken away from GWS, but the point still remains about his serious lack of involvement in the GWS academy yet his eligibility remaining. Where he's from wasn't really my point...

Except it's really quite relevant because it was the Riverina guys that were largely getting identified by the GWS academy and then poached by Victorian private schools into the TAC Cup system, leading to scenarios like Hopper where he was identified by GWS but co-opted into an existing elite developmental pathway.

Now that that is out guys like Macreadie (moved to Sydney by GWS), Shipley (Western Sydney based so played for the reserves a fair bit), and Himmelberg (Canberra based, came up to Sydney semi-regularly) are more the norm than the guys moving into the TAC Cup.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Again, my concern surrounds those who were already playing the game and on course to make it being taken at a discounted rate.

Can you please list every player which fits these circumstances.

 

[Nutjob]

Just something a bit left field here, Im thinking Blakey is a swans supporter

Say you were a 18 year old kid with the same options
would you go to a club your dad played for but have no affiliation with
or
Would you play for the team that you have barracked for and have an affiliation with


The Rules are in place and need to be respected accordingly, The kid has a choice and he deserves to have this choice due to his father playing for 2 other clubs But he also has been or still is in the swans Academy and has lived there for many years.

Kids a Swan

No affiliation with north? He won two flags with north. How could he possibly be more affiliated ?
Please don't give me that dribble about Blakey coaching at Sydney(as an assistant) for so many years. Nothing beats being a premiership player, that's what everyone plays for.
If he chooses Sydney we will move on, but to say john Blakey basically has no ties to north is absolute rubbish.


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[THE_GUN]

No affiliation with north? He won two flags with north. How could he possibly be more affiliated ?
Please don't give me that dribble about Blakey coaching at Sydney(as an assistant) for so many years. Nothing beats being a premiership player, that's what everyone plays for.
If he chooses Sydney we will move on, but to say john Blakey basically has no ties to north is absolute rubbish.


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The kid has no affiliation not dad

 

[Nutjob]

The kid has no affiliation not dad

If the son has no affiliation then what's the point of father son? That's why it was brought in ffs. It is in place because there is an obvious affiliation in the family.


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[THE_GUN]

If the son has no affiliation then what's the point of father son? That's why it was brought in ffs. It is in place because there is an obvious affiliation in the family.


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Just put yourself in his position and perhaps you may take your blue/white glasses off and see what i have tried to explain to you.

Kid has grown up around the Swans where his father has worked and he has been in and out of that club maybe 100's of times and interacted with the players as well as being part of their academy.

The kid is a swan through and through and when the choice is presented to him he will select the swans as you would select north,Im sure if you were to compare what he has had from north to what swans have done for him it would be no comparison.

So he has no affiliation with north but his loyalties will be with Swans - Whats hard for you to understand about this ?

 

[Dangerousfield]

............ Again, my concern surrounds those who were already playing the game and on course to make it being taken at a discounted rate.........

This is the exact scenario surrounding potential top 5 Tarryn Thomas who laughably will be going to North who have in all honesty done almost nothing to develop him as he was already a gun junior before North were given rights to him.

As for your list of Qld & NSW players, that is so full of inclusions that have tenuous links, like Phil Davis who played all his teenage years in the mid north of SA and Tom Hawkins who played Vic U18s. The list is over a very long time frame and once you take out the errors it's a rather poor list from 50% of the Australian population.

 

[BloodySwan]

I appreciate the measured response as well as the great investment the AFL has made in these states, it is clearly paying off and I love the idea that a kid from Newcastle/Airlie Beach/Scone/Toowoomba etc. who may have ended up playing Rugby, Basketball or whatever starts playing our game. Again, my concern surrounds those who were already playing the game and on course to make it being taken at a discounted rate. I don't have the answers on how to stop it, but I don't think it's fair that the next Nick Riewoldt or Lenny Hayes goes to a club who then gets a discount to select them just because they live in NSW/QLD. Perhaps no discount in the first round? No Academy selections before 20? I really don't know but a situation like Hopper's was clearly a manipulation against the spirit and reason the Academies exist, I put Blakey in that category too.

As another point, would you acknowledge that the addition of two extra teams and the spreading of talent could also be a factor is more being taken recently from the northern states, possibly skewing the numbers a little bit?

You really don't know what it's like growing up playing AFL in Sydney. It's not a game you play on the weekend then go to school and talk to all your friends about how you played, the games you watched on TV etc. It's a game you might have 1-2 friends who are also interested in, while all the other kids rip into you for playing a "faggy" sport. It's even a game where other parents rip into you for not playing league or rugby - hell even Basketball doesn't cop as much s**t. Also soccer has a much bigger following than AFL so you're more likely to play that than anything. These are all sports you can gain a lot of friends from, playing AFL you very often get left out. So you may start playing AFL but you stop, and you play League or soccer to hang out with your friends.

Just because a player is the son of a former player doesn't mean he would continue to play AFL. I'm not even going to mention the lack of development without the academies.