Airbus A320 Down in French Alps

[rdhopkins2]

What do you make of the whole two pilots on deck decision mate? Strikes me as a bit knee jerk, it's hard to regulate against acts of God/Allah/Big Pharma.

Knee jerk reaction. Hard to see an air hostess managing to overpower a pilot with evil intentions. How would they know how to fly the plane until the other pilot can regain control?

Also, what if it's the cabin crew member that has the evil intentions?

Not sure what the answer is.

Dr's being forced to inform airlines of medical conditions is probably only going to stop people seeking help too.

 

[checkraiseulite]

http://www.drugawareness.org/antidepressant-andreas-lubitz-sought-treatment-for-vision-problems/

lulz thanks m8

 

[little graham]

Dr's being forced to inform airlines of medical conditions is probably only going to stop people seeking help too.

The FDA also argues that it would safer to let depressed pilots fly if they can take antidepressants. But who wants depressed pilots crisscrossing our nation's airways with hundreds of lives depending on their judgment. And it's unrealistic to hope that taking antidepressants will have such good results for depressed pilots. As I often remind readers, careful meta-analyses of antidepressant studies cast their beneficial effects into doubt while confirming their harmful effects.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-pilots-ta_b_542240.html

 

[Simple Jack]

Knee jerk reaction. Hard to see an air hostess managing to overpower a pilot with evil intentions. How would they know how to fly the plane until the other pilot can regain control?

Also, what if it's the cabin crew member that has the evil intentions?

Not sure what the answer is.

Dr's being forced to inform airlines of medical conditions is probably only going to stop people seeking help too.

Correct about those clear problems with the ridiculous knee jerk reaction but I think there's almost more possibility of something like executing a rapid descent following a depressurisation or shutting down an engine after an engine fire/problem or most likely abruptly following a resolution advisory.

What's the chance of the FA freaking out and burying the crash axe in the pilot's head?

By the way, a very important point in that article:

You get the experience that you pay for. The four pilots who crewed my last flight to the USA had 61,000 hours of combined flying experience:

• 17,000 hrs – Captain (ex air force)
• 23,000 hrs – First Officer (I think the most experienced-capable A380 First Officer in the world)
• 13,000 hrs – Second Officer 1 (ex air force)
• 8,000 hrs – Second Officer 2 (ex air force)

The 4th pilot on that flight (with typical hours for QF I understand) had more experience than the entire GW crew (and for that matter probably 80%+ of Europe LCCs) put together.

Now hours are certainly not everything, what's encompassed in those hours and especially the quality of the training (both ab initio and reccurrent) are very important but it does begin to show you just how different the experience levels of various airlines can be.

 

[rdhopkins2]

Correct about those clear problems with the ridiculous knee jerk reaction but I think there's almost more possibility of something like executing a rapid descent following a depressurisation or shutting down an engine after an engine fire/problem or most likely abruptly following a resolution advisory.

What's the chance of the FA freaking out and burying the crash axe in the pilot's head?

By the way, a very important point in that article:
The 4th pilot on that flight (with typical hours for QF I understand) had more experience than the entire GW crew (and for that matter probably 80%+ of Europe LCCs) put together.

Now hours are certainly not everything, what's encompassed in those hours and especially the quality of the training (both ab initio and reccurrent) are very important but it does begin to show you just how different the experience levels of various airlines can be.

Excellent post. Agree with it all.

 

[True__Believer]

This situation will also most likely bring about the discussion on pilotless flights. I am not sure i could sit on a plane that did not have a pilot, and i am someone who is not a nervous flyer and have been on dozens of international flights. When we look at the last few big crashes, there is a possibility that pilot error was a factor in each one (bar the Ukraine crash).

- MH370 most likely pilot suicide
- The ATR crash in Taiwan
- Germanwings

One could also argue pilot error may have been a factor in the AirAsia crash, if it is icing as they suggest it seems they were incapable of correcting the plane or just simply ran out of time.

 

[Catfish Alley]

You never know I guess. Our trains our driverless.

 

[Richo is God]

You never know I guess. Our trains our driverless.

There are really only a couple of parameters to control a train though - speed and when to stop/start.

 

[Catfish Alley]

There are really only a couple of parameters to control a train though - speed and when to stop/start.

Very true. I don't really see it as a great option but I imagine the technology would almost be there to make it happen.

 

[True__Believer]

Apparently they have found footage from some mobile phones in the wreckage. Seems like most on board knew their fate.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-...haos-before-germanwings-crash-reports/6364404

 

[WCErevival]

Apparently they have found footage from some mobile phones in the wreckage. Seems like most on board knew their fate.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-...haos-before-germanwings-crash-reports/6364404

That would be one of the worst videos to watch

 

[True__Believer]

That would be one of the worst videos to watch

I for one do not wish to watch that....ever

 

[Ron The Bear]

150 people, 2854 body parts. Jesus.

Pilot searched for "ways to commit suicide" and "cockpit doors and their security provisions" on a tablet in the week before the crash. Sick ****.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/ge...it-doors-suicide/story-fniztvne-1227289925920

 

[Simple Jack]

150 people, 2854 body parts. Jesus.

Pilot searched for "ways to commit suicide" and "cockpit doors and their security provisions" on a tablet in the week before the crash. Sick ****.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/ge...it-doors-suicide/story-fniztvne-1227289925920

That confuses the **** out of me. Why did a A320 type rated pilot need to google about the cockpit doors? Surely that would have been covered in his type rating/line training.

 

[Ron The Bear]

That confuses the **** out of me. Why did a A320 type rated pilot need to google about the cockpit doors? Surely that would have been covered in his type rating/line training.

Maybe looking for news reports of attempted cockpit breaches? Who knows.

The context in which the information was supplied by the spokesman was, "On at least one day, (Lubitz) concerned himself for several minutes with search terms about cockpit doors and their security precautions."

 

[little graham]

Anyway, I thought I would make a small contribution to the discussion about how coverage of the recent airline tragedy focuses so much on the supposed ‘mental illness’ of the pilot and not so much on the possible role of antidepressants. Of course we will never know the answer to these questions but it is important, I think, to combat the simplistic nonsense wheeled out after most such tragedies, the nonsense that says the person had an illness that made them do awful things

http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/04...nterpersonal-adverse-effects-antidepressants/

Eight of the 20 adverse effects studied were reported by over half the participants; most frequently Sexual Difficulties (62%) and Feeling Emotionally Numb (60%). Percentages for other effects included: Feeling Not Like Myself - 52%, Agitation 47%, Reduction In Positive Feelings - 42%, Caring Less About Others - 39%, Suicidality - 39%, and Feeling Aggressive - 28%. If one had to imagine a combination of feelings most likely to increase the chances of a tragedy involving the loss of multiple lives it would be hard to do better than emotional numbing, agitation, aggression, suicidality and caring less about others.

5 years ago experts warned of the dangers of pilots using anti depressants, said they should be banned.

Finally, we gave participants ten possible reasons that prescription rates of antidepressants are so high (in 2013 the number of prescriptions in England - 53 million - surpassed the total population - 52.6 million). Among the more commonly endorsed explanations were: ‘Drug companies have successfully marketed their drugs’ (61%), ‘Drug companies have successfully promoted a medical illness view of depression’ (57%), ‘GPs don’t have enough time to talk with patients’ (59%), and ‘Other types of treatments are not funded or are too expensive’ (56%). The least endorsed explanation for high prescribing rates was ‘Anti-depressants are the best treatment‘ (20%).

 

[little graham]

For people out there with money, there is nothing standing in their way to access proper treatments. Diet, lifestyle and talk therapy are the 3 biggest factors in dealing with depression. To alot of poor and young people, the skills, tools and education required for them to manage their condition, isn't available. In alot of people, the medication based therapy actually makes matters worse. You just have to look at side effects to see. Medication should be a last resort only.

A commercial pilot operating machinery valued in the hundreds of millions, transporting hundreds of people at a time, should never be given dangerous medication and sent on his way.


There's thousands of them. That is scary.

 

[The Dice Man]

For people out there with money, there is nothing standing in their way to access proper treatments. Diet, lifestyle and talk therapy are the 3 biggest factors in dealing with depression. To alot of poor and young people, the skills, tools and education required for them to manage their condition, isn't available. In alot of people, the medication based therapy actually makes matters worse. You just have to look at side effects to see. Medication should be a last resort only.

A commercial pilot operating machinery valued in the hundreds of millions, transporting hundreds of people at a time, should never be given dangerous medication and sent on his way.


There's thousands of them. That is scary.

So your answer is?


It's just life, shit happens.

 

[Ron The Bear]

For people out there with money, there is nothing standing in their way to access proper treatments. Diet, lifestyle and talk therapy are the 3 biggest factors in dealing with depression. To alot of poor and young people, the skills, tools and education required for them to manage their condition, isn't available. In alot of people, the medication based therapy actually makes matters worse. You just have to look at side effects to see. Medication should be a last resort only.

A commercial pilot operating machinery valued in the hundreds of millions, transporting hundreds of people at a time, should never be given dangerous medication and sent on his way.

There's thousands of them. That is scary.

There are suggestions in news reports from time to time that certain tragedies may have been caused by a reaction to anti-depressants, but is there any substance to them? Are these merely suggestions/rumours put forward by relatives to explain the abhorrent actions of loved ones?

I understand where you're coming from and that doctors have a tendency to treat these things with medication but the resources just don't exist to treat everyone via non-medical therapies, which take time. Don't have any stats but suspect such medication does a lot more good than harm and makes life bearable for a lot of people.

"I’m on the Zoloft to keep me from killing y’all."
- Mike Tyson

Not sure what illness or medication was involved here, whether he'd been definitively diagnosed or was even actually taking the medication. "Depression" has become almost a euphemism and is routinely fed to newspapers to describe all sorts of things. Have seen suggestions that he was prescribed lorazepam, which is a sedative rather than anti-depressant. An anti-psychotic would be something else; not sure someone who requires these to function should be allowed to fly planes.

Doubt there will be any definitive answers emerge from this, other than he was "****** up". His name will go down in infamy though.

 

[little graham]

Are these merely suggestions/rumours put forward by relatives to explain the abhorrent actions of loved ones?

There's a number of medical professionals in the US , I have provided links to their work. Have quoted their work in this thread. You're a special kind of ignorant, aren't you?

A few years ago I was hired by the FAA to defend the agency against a suit brought by a pilot who wanted to fly while taking a prescription antidepressant. I helped the FAA formulate its defense of the agency's ban on pilots using antidepressants and, as a result, the ban remained in effect. Pilots remained unable to fly while taking antidepressants, including the newer ones such as Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Lexapro and Effexor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-pilots-ta_b_542240.html

the resources just don't exist to treat everyone via non-medical therapies, which take time.

I pointed this out in the post you quoted. I'm not an ignorant fool who thinks the resources aren't available for a commercial pilot, transporting hundreds of people in aircraft worth hundreds of millions of dollars. A good psychologist earns 200 an hour.

Shocking comment from a disgusting person.

Don't have any stats but suspect such medication does a lot more good than harm and makes life bearable for a lot of people.

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/antidepressants-no-better-placebo-jama-study

A study just published in JAMA Jan 5, reported that SSRI antidepressants are no better than placebo for most cases of depression. The authors reviewed 30 years of data and concluded that "the benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo may be minimal or nonexistent in patients with mild or moderate symptoms

Already posted in this thread
http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/04...nterpersonal-adverse-effects-antidepressants/

Not sure what illness or medication was involved here, whether he'd been definitively diagnosed or was even actually taking the medication. " Have seen suggestions that he was prescribed lorazepam, which is a sedative rather than anti-depressant.

There's another wrinkle that the FAA seems to have ignored. Nowadays many patients are given antidepressants in combination with potent benzodiazepine tranquilizers like Xanax, Ativan, and clonazepam. They are given these sedatives in order to counteract the over-stimulation and insomnia routinely caused by the newer antidepressants. Does this mean that the FAA will have to approve addictive benzodiazepines in combination with the antidepressants? Some of the most horrendous cases of violence and suicide I have evaluated in my forensic work have involved the combination of antidepressants and tranquilizers.

That article was written 5 years ago. this article has already been posted in here but obviously didn't suit your apologist ways.

Are you a chemist by any chance? Making money from these drugs? Narcissistic quack?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-pilots-ta_b_542240.html

 

[Ron The Bear]

There's a number of medical professionals in the US , I have provided links to their work. Have quoted their work in this thread. You're a special kind of ignorant, aren't you?



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-pilots-ta_b_542240.html




I pointed this out in the post you quoted. I'm not an ignorant fool who thinks the resources aren't available for a commercial pilot, transporting hundreds of people in aircraft worth hundreds of millions of dollars. A good psychologist earns 200 an hour.

Shocking comment from a disgusting person.



http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/antidepressants-no-better-placebo-jama-study



Already posted in this thread
http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/04...nterpersonal-adverse-effects-antidepressants/








That article was written 5 years ago. this article has already been posted in here but obviously didn't suit your apologist ways.

Are you a chemist by any chance? Making money from these drugs? Narcissistic quack?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-pilots-ta_b_542240.html

What a way to interpret my post. Take you whacko conspiracy theories and GAGF.

 

[little graham]

So your answer is?


It's just life, shit happens.

This worse than the Adrian Bailey case. He should never of been out. This is worse than the criminal in that coffee shop in Sydney, he should of never been out. This guy should never of been flying and so should no one else on these drugs. The evidence is all there, it is indisputable.

This event was predicted by the most prominent pharmaceutical safety advocate(a shrink), was only a matter a time before it happened, will happen again if nothings done.

Think about what happens if they ban people flying on anti depressants, to stop them using their plane as a weapon. They can jump in their car and do the same thing. A truck driver could use his truck.

You can't just ban pilots. Everyone in public or private transport.

That would kill the corrupt pharmaceuticals because it will make knowledge of their drugs mainstream.

Next time you catch a tram, ask yourself is the driver spinning out on anti depressant? There would be dozens of drivers on them.Did you know there was 53 million prescriptions for anti depressant in England last year (population 52 million)

If you read Breggins work I've quoted, he's found a link between the introduction of Prozac and road rage.

 

[Simple Jack]

I pointed this out in the post you quoted. I'm not an ignorant fool who thinks the resources aren't available for a commercial pilot, transporting hundreds of people in aircraft worth hundreds of millions of dollars. A good psychologist earns 200 an hour.

Apparently you are. Unless you're going to self fund it (and keep in mind as an FO in Europe you have ~$200,000 of debt and earn shit money so not really possible) it is not at all available. No company (particularly a LCC) would ever even remotely consider doing something like paying for psychological treatment.

 

[The Dice Man]

This worse than the Adrian Bailey case. He should never of been out. This is worse than the criminal in that coffee shop in Sydney, he should of never been out. This guy should never of been flying and so should no one else on these drugs. The evidence is all there, it is indisputable.

This event was predicted by the most prominent pharmaceutical safety advocate(a shrink), was only a matter a time before it happened, will happen again if nothings done.

Think about what happens if they ban people flying on anti depressants, to stop them using their plane as a weapon. They can jump in their car and do the same thing. A truck driver could use his truck.

You can't just ban pilots. Everyone in public or private transport.

That would kill the corrupt pharmaceuticals because it will make knowledge of their drugs mainstream.

Next time you catch a tram, ask yourself is the driver spinning out on anti depressant? There would be dozens of drivers on them.Did you know there was 53 million prescriptions for anti depressant in England last year (population 52 million)

If you read Breggins work I've quoted, he's found a link between the introduction of Prozac and road rage.

I skim your posts, for two good reasons. You are often looking for answers or reasons where sometimes there just isn't one.

Shit just ****ing happens, and there's nothing you or I can ever do to stop people doing shit things to other peoples, animals or our environment.

I don't, and I doubt many do, read your links because of the complete condescending delivery you employ.

You're passionate no doubt, and sometimes interesting, but tone down your holier than thou bullshit and I might click on your links and see what your saying.