All Australian thread 2015

[Bazzar]

Jeez people underrate Jack in this thread.

And Rance is the best defender in the league, simple as that.

Jack has been outstanding and has never been in this good form. Fox footy last night said Jack/Rance are the AA bookends.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Is there a stat for that? Wouldn't matter anyway, Champion Data keeps all their insightful stats away from the common man.

Regardless, what you're talking about is why I love Goldstein. He follows up on his ruckwork, making him more than just a beanpole. He becomes an extra midfielder. There's a reason the coaches have voted him as the 8th best player in the competition, and it's the same reason most Brownlow trackers have put him in the top 10 payers in the competition. It's that he's the ideal ruck. He kills opposition in the air and then dominates them around the ground.

I laughed when Sandi made him his bitch! He's having a good year but he's not some sort of "ideal ruck"

 

[Underdog]

Jack has been outstanding and has never been in this good form. Fox footy last night said Jack/Rance are the AA bookends.

The bloke comfortably leading the Coleman and known for incredible defensive pressure doesn't get FF?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

So you saying Jack wont make it?

No he's saying he's just not a lock. May well make it and is probably in at this stage but a few quiet weeks could see others over take him. Doesn't have the margin of error that JK has at the moment

 

[Suma Magic]

H. Shaw Rance McGovern
Murphy Hurley Wood
Gray Armitage Pendlebury
Dangerfield Reiwoldt Wingard
Betts Kennedy Bruce

Goldstein Fyfe Hannebery

Mitchell Gaff Neale Cotchin

 

[eaglespremiers]

No he's saying he's just not a lock. May well make it and is probably in at this stage but a few quiet weeks could see others over take him. Doesn't have the margin of error that JK has at the moment

Kennedy was one of our few average players tonight.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Kennedy was one of our few average players tonight.

By margin of error I mean 10+goals lead in the Coleman. It's going to take a bit to catch him, and it's a rare year the Coleman medalist doesn't make it, especially if he's in a top 4 team

 

[Engimal]

I laughed when Sandi made him his bitch! He's having a good year but he's not some sort of "ideal ruck"

To be honest, no one really beats Sandi one on one. It happens once in a blue moon. However Goldstein rucked alone that game (no Ben Brown and minimal chop out from Petrie) and beat Sandilands in the hitouts. In fact, the combined outfit of Clarke and Sandilands only got 9 more hitouts than Goldstein alone. On the other hand, Clarke and Sandilands managed 21 more hitouts than Naitanui.

Goldstein had no chop out that game due to Petrie getting on in age and still held his own against the best ruck duo in the game. Are you sure you want to claim that Sandi "made him his bitch", or do you want to retract that and save yourself the embarrassment of admitting that you didn't at all watch the game?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

To be honest, no one really beats Sandi one on one. It happens once in a blue moon. However Goldstein rucked alone that game (no Ben Brown and minimal chop out from Petrie) and beat Sandilands in the hitouts. In fact, the combined outfit of Clarke and Sandilands only got 9 more hitouts than Goldstein alone. On the other hand, Clarke and Sandilands managed 21 more hitouts than Naitanui.

Goldstein had no chop out that game due to Petrie getting on in age and still held his own against the best ruck duo in the game. Are you sure you want to claim that Sandi "made him his bitch", or do you want to retract that and save yourself the embarrassment of admitting that you didn't at all watch the game?

I watched the game, that's why I'm not trying to rely on total hit outs like you are. If you watched you wouldn't be trying to argue based on stats

 

[billy fragos]

Laird - McGovern - Hurley
Wood - Rance - H.Shaw
Gaff - Priddis - Pendlebury
Wingard - Riewoldt - Dangerfield
Betts - Kennedy - Bruce
Goldstein - Fyfe - Armitage
Mitchell - Gray - Beams - Vince

 

[Thewlis Dish]

I watched the game, that's why I'm not trying to rely on total hit outs like you are. If you watched you wouldn't be trying to argue based on stats

I watched it too. Freo's midfield monstered ours, and the ruck duel had little impact on the result.

Goldstein's work around the ground surely separates him from any other ruckman this year.

 

[Brown n Gold]

If the team actually had to play a game you would have to consider a bloke like Liam Shiels who constantly plays accountable football, gets moved onto mids that are getting away from the Hawks. Very underrated mid and has a great mix between defence and attack.

 

[Engimal]

I watched the game, that's why I'm not trying to rely on total hit outs like you are. If you watched you wouldn't be trying to argue based on stats

I'm using stats to support my argument. There's no use trying to use anything other than that with Eagles supporters because it's apparently unfathomable to you guys that any other ruck has any amount of impact.

Any time sometime tries to say that another ruck is better than Naitanui, we get get the same response: "You just need to watch Naitanui. He doesn't just get hitouts, he does other stuff!"

No matter how much we try and discuss the fact that other ruckmen actually do other stuff than get hitouts, you just slap us with the above again. Have you seen 'White Men Can't Jump?' Do you know that scene where Wesley Snipes says, "Look man, you can listen to Jimi but you can't hear him"? That's what you guys sound like. However unlike that movie's title, white men can in fact jump and many of us believe that a particular white man by the name of Todd Goldstein can jump a lot better than Naitanui, along with kicking, marking, tackling and just pretty much most aspects of footy.

So while I respect that you believe Naitanui is a better ruckman than Todd Goldstein, please don't tell me that I need to watch the games and not rely on stats, because regardless of the fact that I watch nearly every game of the season, you're going to tell me over and over again that I need to do something along the lines of 'watching Naitanui because he does other stuff that other ruckmen don't do'.

That's why I have to rely on stats. They're the one objective thing that shows that other ruckmen actually do stuff other than amass hitouts. That's not to say that Naitanui isn't a good ruck. He absolutely is, but he's not the only good ruck and, in my opinion, is definitely not the best ruck.

/rant

 

[eaglespremiers]

I'm using stats to support my argument. There's no use trying to use anything other than that with Eagles supporters because it's apparently unfathomable to you guys that any other ruck has any amount of impact.

Any time sometime tries to say that another ruck is better than Naitanui, we get get the same response: "You just need to watch Naitanui. He doesn't just get hitouts, he does other stuff!"

No matter how much we try and discuss the fact that other ruckmen actually do other stuff than get hitouts, you just slap us with the above again. Have you seen 'White Men Can't Jump?' Do you know that scene where Wesley Snipes says, "Look man, you can listen to Jimi but you can't hear him"? That's what you guys sound like. However unlike that movie's title, white men can in fact jump and many of us believe that a particular white man by the name of Todd Goldstein can jump a lot better than Naitanui, along with kicking, marking, tackling and just pretty much most aspects of footy.

So while I respect that you believe Naitanui is a better ruckman than Todd Goldstein, please don't tell me that I need to watch the games and not rely on stats, because regardless of the fact that I watch nearly every game of the season, you're going to tell me over and over again that I need to do something along the lines of 'watching Naitanui because he does other stuff that other ruckmen don't do'.

That's why I have to rely on stats. They're the one objective thing that shows that other ruckmen actually do stuff other than amass hitouts. That's not to say that Naitanui isn't a good ruck. He absolutely is, but he's not the only good ruck and, in my opinion, is definitely not the best ruck.

/rant

This is a relevant point and I can sense your frustration about how West Coast supporters keep trying to invalid and undermine your opinion. I hope you don't interpret my comments that way.
But do yourself a favour and get around to watching the West Coast game tonight (or at least the highlights of Naitanui). Not because it necessarily debunks your argument in any way, just because it was so breath-takingly awesome.

 

[hawkman]

If the team actually had to play a game you would have to consider a bloke like Liam Shiels who constantly plays accountable football, gets moved onto mids that are getting away from the Hawks. Very underrated mid and has a great mix between defence and attack.

Has been our best player in the last 6 weeks but missing a month of footy means he has no chance

 

[Shinboner '07]

Higgins definitely deserves at least be in the 40 man squad

Goldy has the ruck spot sewn up now.

 

[WCErevival]

I'd have Goldstein in atm. Sandilands been good but not enough work outside of his hit outs. Naitanui is coming strong and could be a chance at a second ruck spot especially if he kicks some more goals.

 

[Danair]

Laird - McGovern - Hurley
Wood - Rance - H.Shaw
Gaff - Priddis - Pendlebury
Wingard - Riewoldt - Dangerfield
Betts - Kennedy - Bruce
Goldstein - Fyfe - Armitage
Mitchell - Gray - Beams - Vince

Couldn't find a spot for Hannebery?

 

[eaglespremiers]

Couldn't find a spot for Hannebery?

Clearly lost out to Vince.
Better luck next year.

 

[robertg22]

Seeing a few teams with Bruce ahead of Franklin... not sure about that. Aside from marking, Franklin shades him in pretty much every category. Armitage should make it, but I can't see there being multiple players from a bottom 6 club.

 

[huludicidal]

As of this point in time (middle of Round 15), here's my team:

B: R.Murphy (WB) - A.Rance (Rich) - M.Hurley (Ess)*
HB: E.Wood (WB) - J.McGovern (WCE) - H.Shaw (GWS)*
C: A.Gaff (WCE) - M.Priddis (WCE) - I.Smith (Haw)*
HF: C.Wingard (PA)* - L.Franklin (Syd)* - D.Martin (Rich)
F: E.Betts (Adel)* - J.Kennedy (WCE) - J.Riewoldt (Rich)
R: T.Goldstein (NM) - N.Fyfe (Fre) - S.Pendlebury (Coll)
Int: D.Hannebery (Syd) - S.Mitchell (Haw) - N.Naitanui (WCE)* - D.Armitage (StK)

* indicates players I feel are under the most pressure to hold their spots over the remaining rounds

On The Cusp (no particular order - the 22 'unluckiest')
J.Lewis (Haw) - mid
J.Steven (StK) - mid / wing
L.Neale (Fre) - mid
M.Williams (Coll) - small back pocket / half back flank
R.Laird (Adel) - half back flank / small back pocket
P.Dangerfield (Adel) - mid / half forward
M.Boyd (WB) - back pocket / half back flank
J.Bruce (StK) - key forward
A.Sandilands (Fre) - ruck
R.Gray (PA) - mid / half forward
B.Vince (Melb) - mid (best run-with player)
D.Talia (Adel) - key defender
T.McDonald (Melb) - key defender
J.Gibson (Haw) - third tall in defence
L.Hodge (Haw) - the everywhereman and arguably the best leader
D.Mundy (Fre) - mid
S.Hill (Fre) - wing / outside mid
J.Cameron (GWS) - key forward
L.Parker (Syd) - mid / half forward
J.Elliott (Coll) - small forward
C.Rioli (Haw) - small forward
S.Higgins (NM) - half forward

Still in the mix (no particular order)
M.Walters (Fre)
M.Blicavs (Geel)
J.Stringer (WB)
N.Riewoldt (StK)
H.Taylor (Geel)
J.Rivers (Geel)
D.Heppell (Ess)
T.Cotchin (Rich)
D.Shiel (GWS)
B.Ellis (Rich)
K.Simpson (Carl)
D.Swan (Coll)
T.Cloke (Coll)
C.Enright (Geel)
J.Hombsch (PA)
J.Kennedy (Syd)
L.Dahlhaus (WB)
A.Treloar (GWS)
C.Hooker (Ess)
M.LeCras (WCE)
D.Beams (Bris)
L.Picken (WB)
G.Ibbotson (Fre)
B.Hill (Haw)

I suppose my main point of difference will be Isaac Smith on a wing. Besides Gaff, I found it difficult to find another true wingman deserving of that spot. I initially had Hannebery in there, but decided that wasn't appropriate. For mine, Smith has had an excellent season and has provided enormous drive for the Hawks, especially with guys like Birchall (injury) and Suckling (form) down on their regular output. That said, Smith is clearly the most contentious selection in my starting 18 and he may well not be in there come Round 23. Have there been two better true wingmen than him to this point?

On the subject of Hannebery, it's pretty much a disgrace that he's not in the starting 18, but it would be equally ridiculous to dump any of Priddis (arguably playing better than his Brownlow year), Fyfe (best player in the league by a street) or Pendlebury (pure silk) to the bench, and I really didn't think it was appropriate to put any of those 4 at half forward or half back (and I personally don't consider any of them as wingmen), so there you go. I'm more fussy about putting players in their real positions than the actual AA selectors will be so no doubt all 4 of those will find their way into the eventual starting 18. Maybe Fyfe at half forward would solve this, but it just doesn't seem a grand enough gesture to put him there considering he's arguably having the greatest season of all time playing predominantly as a midfielder.

Michael Hurley is an interesting one. I'd argue that every team should have 2 genuine key defenders and then another tallish defender who can stand the Jack Gunston's of the world. Rance and McGovern appear to be absolute locks for two of those 3 positions at this point (barring injury). Hurley has been excellent IMO, but it will be interesting to see if he gets the recognition from selectors considering the plight of his team.

I'm not really convinced by my Naitanui selection but I feel an AA team needs to have someone who can at least provide a chopout in the ruck, and none of my forwards really fit that bill so I went with Nic Nat off the bench. His game against the Crows in Round 15 was one of the most dominant games from a ruckman I've seen in years, but I'm not sure his first 6 weeks of the season justifies this selection. We'll see. If Gerard Healy is still on the selection panel, Nic Nat could take the rest of the season off and still make it.

Team needs more Freo in it. One of Mundy or Neale will end up making it for sure. Maybe Sandilands will end up in there instead of Nic Nat (I went with Nic Nat because having both of Goldstein and Sandilands just seems a bit too dinosaurish). Maybe Stephen Hill will get a gig on a wing. Maybe Walters sneaks in. The individual brilliance of others combined with positional needs is keeping them out for me at this point. It's not an easy task to get them in!


Apologies to the people who feel I've slighted blokes on their team by not including them either in my 22 or in my list of other players that are close. It's all just subjective opinion at the end of the day, and I'm bound to have missed at least 10 guys around the league who are having great years.

 

[DontArgue4]

The only "lock" in the forward line is Kennedy. You can also make an argument that Bruce, Cameron and Franklin have been better.

Hahahaha you only reply to Richmond related posts, it's so amusing to see. Trying to prove that Hogan "destroyed" Rance and now trying to talk down Riewoldts amazing season. Almost every expert has Riewoldt in their side, right now he is a lock. Obviously things can change over the remaining rounds, but as of now he is in. Oh and also, Rance is way ahead of Hurley, don't even try and compare them.

 

[eth-dog]

So you saying Jack wont make it?

No, just that he isn't a lock. I'd have him in the squad, no doubt, but the only "lock" in the forward line is Kennedy.

Hahahaha you only reply to Richmond related posts, it's so amusing to see. Trying to prove that Hogan "destroyed" Rance and now trying to talk down Riewoldts amazing season. Almost every expert has Riewoldt in their side, right now he is a lock. Obviously things can change over the remaining rounds, but as of now he is in. Oh and also, Rance is way ahead of Hurley, don't even try and compare them.

Hogan did. Anybody who watched that game that doesn't support Richmond agrees. He isn't a "lock", he's an excellent chance of making the team, but there is a chance he doesn't make it. Would you disagree that all three of Bruce, Cameron and Franklin are chances to make the team ahead of him?

 

[ManOfClay]

Bit of a different one: Liam Picken.

Has gone from tagger to ball-winner. Another 36 disposals yesterday

 

[MaxHunt]

Bit of a different one: Liam Picken.

Has gone from tagger to ball-winner. Another 36 disposals yesterday

Has been in ripping form.