All Australian thread 2015

[El_Scorcho]

Wingard has surpassed them both, but Port.

In fairness I think most people accept now that Wingard is a lock for either a FP or HFF spot. They're talking about a 2nd small forward, and it's probably between Betts, Rioli and Bruest.

 

[eth-dog]

It should be Betts.

It'll be Rioli though.

 

[chiwigi]

In fairness I think most people accept now that Wingard is a lock for either a FP or HFF spot. They're talking about a 2nd small forward, and it's probably between Betts, Rioli and Bruest.

Yeah, I kind of jumped into the thread and having read back I realise this.

 

[MotleyLemon]

Whoss covering the other 2 forwards, champ?

You know, like Rance, maybe Hurley, maybe Harry Taylor?

Was about to say I hadn't seen a backline comprised entirely of half back flankers, but then I saw the West Coast line up for this weekend.

I'm not saying Wright isn't a good player, but you're overrating his solid performance this year which looks good after years of mediocrity. He's inferior in just about every statistical category to Enright this year, who I wouldn't have close to AA.

 

[Back One Out]

Rioli has unquestionably been in Hawthorn's top 5 players this season and a strong argument can be made for our third best. Mitchell and Hodge are probably a clear 1 and 2 but Rioli has had his best season, especially the last couple of months. He is ranked third in coaches votes for the club (Mitchell 60, Hodge, 45, Rioli 36), the Hawthorn board will have him outright second after this last Saturday (Mitch 46, Rioli 32, Hodge 31) and I've got him fourth in my rankings (Mitch 93, Hodge 76, Gunston 63, Rioli 59).

Not trying to convince anyone of his place in the actual AA 22 as I haven't seen enough footy this year to form an opinion on other candidates other than the stats sheet. However from a Hawthorn perspective he is clearly in front of Breust and his season has been comfortably better than "ok - pretty good", given his influence on a top 4 side, with a % of 160.

Would surely be a certainty for the squad of 40 at least.

Rioli is in a unique position of being simultaneously one of the most overrated and underrated players in the AFL

Cyril is overrated by the likes of Bruce McAvaney and Luke Darcy who constantly fap over every touch he gets. They say shit like "That's something we've never seen before!" People need to realise this is how Channel 7 sells their game. Whether it's Rioli, Pendlebury, Fyfe, Bontempelli, Stringer, Selwood, the Riewoldts, or Judd while he was still playing… The commentators crap on endlessly about these guys to the exclusion of everything else which happens in the game. So when people hate on the stars, their hate should be directed at the Channel 7 twats.

Cyril is underrated by many people who can't see past the commentary hype or the stats. People always talk about his possession totals. Rioli's critics only ever praise his performance when he kicks 4/5/6 goals. They don't realise how consistently well he plays every week, even when he "only" kicks 1 or 2 goals. He is one of Hawthorn's most consistent players, as weird as that may sound to the knockers who say he is inconsistent.

Many people don't quite realise how team-oriented and unselfish a player Rioli is. His whole game is based around defence - intercepting/tackling/stripping the ball from opponents or pressuring them into error - then winning the contested ball with 2nd and 3rd efforts and "reversing" the flow of play. This is the real reason why his 15 or 16 touches are like gold. He completely alters the flow of the game and sets up Hawthorn goal-scoring chances. Less opportunistic and less of a finisher than a small forward like Betts and more of an instigator.

His work off the ball is rarely acknowledged. People focus on the sizzle, the glamourous stuff he does, but they don't notice the blue-collar aspect of his play when his name isn't called out by Bruce or Darce.

No other AFL forward produces as many score involvements for their teammates. But the All-Australian selectors will probably overlook that and they'll reward Wingard and Betts for kicking the most goals. I would like them to name all three in the team, as I think all three small forwards are deserving. I don't see why the selectors should always name three KPFs in the AA team when none of them have really set the world on fire in 2015.

I hope so. There isn't an AFL coach who wouldn't have Rioli up forward in their starting 18, based on the form displayed over the 2015 season. Yet for some reason, the All-Australian discussions seem to get waylaid into meaningless arguments over stats when trying to determine who are the best players. For some reason, small forwards are only ever praised for the number of goals they kick and rest of their contribution (or lack of) is overlooked.

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

But the All-Australian selectors will probably overlook that and just reward Wingard and Betts for kicking the most goals. I would like them to name all three in the team, as I think all three small forwards are deserving. I don't see why the selectors should always name three KPFs in the AA team when none of them have really set the world on fire in 2015.

Can't tell if serious? Wingard and Betts both this year have higher numbers of score involement then rioli, Wingard and Rioli are both equal for goal assist (with betts only a couple behind), not to mention betts kicking 17 goals more then him and wingard kicking 15 goals more then him... Of course betts and wingard deserve to be AA over rioli.

 

[MotleyLemon]

Rioli is in a unique position of being simultaneously one of the most overrated and underrated players in the AFL

Cyril is overrated by the likes of Bruce McAvaney and Luke Darcy who constantly fap over every touch he gets. They say shit like "That's something we've never seen before!" People need to realise this is how Channel 7 sells their game. Whether it's Rioli, Pendlebury, Fyfe, Bontempelli, Stringer, Selwood, the Riewoldts, or Judd while he was still playing… The commentators crap on endlessly about these guys to the exclusion of everything else which happens in the game. So when people hate on the stars, they need to realise their hate should be directed at Channel 7.

Cyril is underrated by many people who can't see past the commentary hype or the stats. People always talk about his possession totals. Rioli's critics only ever praise his performance when he kicks 4/5/6 goals. They don't realise how consistently well he plays every week, even he "only" kicks 1 or 2 goals. He is one of Hawthorn's most consistent players, as weird as that may sound to the knockers who say he is inconsistent.

Many people don't quite realise how team-oriented and unselfish a player Rioli is. His whole game is based around defence - intercepting/tackling/stripping the ball from opponents, winning the hard ball with 2nd and 3rd efforts and "reversing" the flow of play. This is the real reason why his 15 or 16 touches are like gold. He completely alters the flow of the game and sets up Hawthorn goal-scoring chances.

No other AFL forward produces as many score involvements for their teammates. But the All-Australian selectors will probably overlook that and they'll reward Wingard and Betts for kicking the most goals. I would like them to name all three in the team, as I think all three small forwards are deserving. I don't see why the selectors should always name three KPFs in the AA team when none of them have really set the world on fire in 2015.

I hope so. There isn't an AFL coach who wouldn't have Rioli up forward in their starting 18, based on the form displayed over the 2015 season. Yet for some reason, the All-Australian discussions seem to get waylaid into meaningless arguments over stats when trying to determine who are the best players.

Should probably back up your score involvements comment with some stats.

He's been good though, no arguments here.

Probably still have Wingard and Betts ahead of him though.

 

[Hawkas1988]

Why can't all 3 of Wingard, Betts and Rioli make it?

2 on the field, 1 on the bench. They've all had super seasons, anyone arguing Rioli doesn't deserve it have no clue and clearly haven't watched him enough this year. Would be 3rd or 4th in our BnF right now. The tall forwards haven't exactly set the world on fire this year, having 3 small forwards in the team would be my preference over having more talls who I believe haven't been that great besides Kennedy and maybe Jack Riewoldt.

Also for those who are obsessed with goal tallies, Breust has kicked liked 13 more goals than Rioli this year. Rioli has easily been the better and more consistent player this year. It's not all about goals especially for small forwards!

 

[MotleyLemon]

Why can't all 3 of Wingard, Betts and Rioli make it?

2 on the field, 1 on the bench. They've all had super seasons, anyone arguing Rioli doesn't deserve it have no clue and clearly haven't watched him enough this year. Would be 3rd or 4th in our BnF right now. The tall forwards haven't exactly set the world on fire this year, having 3 small forwards in the team would be my preference over having more talls who I believe haven't been that great besides Kennedy and maybe Jack Riewoldt.

Also for those who are obsessed with goal tallies, Breust has kicked liked 13 more goals than Rioli this year. Rioli has easily been the better and more consistent player this year. It's not all about goals especially for small forwards!

Can't see them giving a bench spot to a small forward unfortunately with the selector's midfielder obsession.

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

Why can't all 3 of Wingard, Betts and Rioli make it?

2 on the field, 1 on the bench. They've all had super seasons, anyone arguing Rioli doesn't deserve it have no clue and clearly haven't watched him enough this year. Would be 3rd or 4th in our BnF right now. The tall forwards haven't exactly set the world on fire this year, having 3 small forwards in the team would be my preference over having more talls who I believe haven't been that great besides Kennedy and maybe Jack Riewoldt.

Also for those who are obsessed with goal tallies, Breust has kicked liked 13 more goals than Rioli this year. Rioli has easily been the better and more consistent player this year. It's not all about goals especially for small forwards!

Rioli doesnt deserve to be there, the only reason he is being talked about is because of media hype.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Why can't all 3 of Wingard, Betts and Rioli make it?

All three made the player ratings team of the year on the field.

BTW they've released more info including their second team of the year and their criteria (highest points average per game + at least 15 games played by round 23)

Also the top 30 performances of the year so far

MG = metres gained I think

holy shit at 900+ by nat fyfe in one game.

edit: apparently its only the tenth best recorded lol

 

[WWSD]

Rioli doesnt deserve to be there, the only reason he is being talked about is because of media hype.

So you're telling me that Hawthorn shouldn't have at least one representative in that forward-line? A team that's averaging 112 points per game you'd think would get at least one player in there. Breust, Gunston or Rioli. Take ya pick.

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

So you're telling me that Hawthorn shouldn't have at least one representative in that forward-line? A team that's averaging 112 points per game you'd think would get at least one player in there. Breust, Gunston or Rioli. Take ya pick.

i dont care where your club finishes, this is the AA... A team of the best performing players of the year, this is not a team award this is an individual player award. Yes hawks avg 112 points per game but unfortunately there are players from other teams that have performed better then hawthorns forwards.

Stop using a players teams for the justification for being an AA representative. It does not work that way and is the most idiotic argument i have heard.

 

[NinjaSwan]

So you're telling me that Hawthorn shouldn't have at least one representative in that forward-line? A team that's averaging 112 points per game you'd think would get at least one player in there. Breust, Gunston or Rioli. Take ya pick.

AA is an individual honour not a team one. Personally I'd have Rioli and Gunston in the squad but not 22.

 

[SydCrow]

i dont care where your club finishes, this is the AA... A team of the best performing players of the year, this is not a team award this is an individual player award. Yes hawks avg 112 points per game but unfortunately there are players from other teams that have performed better then hawthorns forwards.

Stop using a players teams for the justification for being an AA representative. It does not work that way and is the most idiotic argument i have heard.

reality is though that the top teams are rewarded and bottom teams are punished in the AA stakes

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

reality is though that the top teams are rewarded and bottom teams are punished in the AA stakes

So you are telling me you agree that rioli should be an AA this year a head of Betts? With the determining factors is because he plays for hawthorn

 

[WWSD]

AA is an individual honour not a team one. Personally I'd have Rioli and Gunston in the squad but not 22.

I know, but there are a few cases over the years in which a Hawthorn forward dominated and still didn't make the team. See Roughead in 2008 when he kicked 75 goals/51 behinds, Gunston last year when he kicked 58 goals and Breust in season 2012 when he kicked 45 goals, Gibson winning our Best & Fairest during a Premiership year in 2013 doesn't even make the team let alone the 40-man squad, they pick Andrew Mackie instead lol.

Those are just some examples of Hawthorn players being snubbed over the years.

 

[billy fragos]

I know, but there are a few times over the years in which a Hawthorn forward dominated and still didn't make the team. See Roughead in 2008 when he kicked 75 goals - 51 behinds, Gunston last year when he kicked 58 goals and Breust in season 2012 when he kicked 45 goals, Gibson winning our Best & Fairest during a Premiership year in 2013 doesn't even make the team let alone the 40-man squad they pick Andrew Mackie insted. lol

Those are just some examples of Hawthorn players being snubbed over the years.

There has always been one player better expect 2013 but Gibson isn't a forward anyway

 

[billy fragos]

The squad is a good representation of how a team did. Top teams usually get 4/5 with most top 8 teams having at least 2/3.

When it comes to the team the best player gets the spot IMO

 

[Back One Out]

Can't tell if serious? Wingard and Betts both this year have higher numbers of score involement then rioli, Wingard and Rioli are both equal for goal assist (with betts only a couple behind), not to mention betts kicking 17 goals more then him and wingard kicking 15 goals more then him... Of course betts and wingard deserve to be AA over rioli.

Should probably back up your score involvements comment with some stats.
He's been good though, no arguments here. Probably still have Wingard and Betts ahead of him though.

I purposefully said "score involvements for his teammates" in trying to make a point about Cyril's unselfishness. Some people want their gun small forward to be selfish and snap goals from all angles, but this undervalues the key point I tried to make about the underrated aspect of Rioli's game.

Wingard, Betts and Rioli have all had the same similar numbers of score involvements and goal assists (the possession prior to goal)

Wingard and Betts have had more shots at goal than Cyril and kicked more goals. However, if you subtract their scoring shots from their overall score involvement totals, you'll find Cyril has set up way more scores for his teammates than those two. Wingard and Betts are deadly finishers, but Cyril is more of a set-up player. (Luke Breust has also kicked the same number of goals as Wingard and Betts, but how many of his goals could we attribute to Rioli's good work?)

Goals
49 Eddie Betts, (avg 2.72)
47 Chad Wingard (avg 2.47)
45 Luke Breust (avg 2.37)
36 Michael Walters (avg 1.89)
32 Cyril Rioli (avg 1.78)

Assists
17 Cyril Rioli (avg 0.94)
17 Chad Wingard (avg 0.89)
14 Eddie Betts (avg 0.78)
13 Luke Breust (avg 0.68)
11 Michael Walters (avg 0.58)

Score involvements
143 Luke Breust (avg 7.53)
136 Chad Wingard (avg 7.16)
132 Eddie Betts (avg 7.33)
131 Cyril Rioli (avg 7.28)
112 Michael Walters (avg 5.89)

Scoring shots
71 Chad Wingard (3.74)
69 Eddie Betts (3.83)
61 Luke Breust (3.21)
53 Michael Walters (2.79)
50 Cyril Rioli (2.78)

Score involvements minus scoring shots
82 Luke Breust (4.32)
81 Cyril Rioli (4.50)
65 Chad Wingard (3.42)
63 Eddie Betts (3.50)
59 Michael Walters (3.11)


Another thing about these "score involvements", I'm not 100% certain, but I'm fairly sure these only count the players who were involved in the possession chain which led to a score. So they don't count the score involvements when Rioli tackles a player and strips the ball loose, or when he intercepts an opposition kick or handball by getting a hand in there and causing the turnover, or when he doesn't even take possession, but simply taps the ball onto Breust, Gunstan, Roughead and Puopolo - some of these tap ons are better than a possession because they give defenders no time to react.

Rioli is the king of this stuff. Not just the raw number totals, but the timing and quality of his work and the effect it has on the game.


Tackles
80 Cyril Rioli (avg 4.44)
70 Luke Breust (avg 3.68)
58 Chad Wingard (avg 3.05)
52 Eddie Betts (avg 2.89)
47 Michael Walters (avg 2.47)

One-percenters
43 Cyril Rioli (avg 2.39)
23 Eddie Betts (avg 1.28)
22 Chad Wingard (avg 1.16)
19 Michael Walters (avg 1.00)
18 Luke Breust (avg 0.95)


It would be interesting to see the score involvements emanating from these last two statistical categories.
I'd venture to say, Rioli would be a clear number one if they measured that.

At the end of the day, people can ignore the tackles and one-percenters when rating the small forwards. They can focus purely on the goals and the highlight reel stuff (the arsey snaps and the speckies) but I think it's selling Rioli's overall contribution short. When the hawk fans make their way home after another win and they speak in raptures about Rioli, they're not just discussing his 15 disposals, 2 goals and a specky - it's the 5 or 6 goals he created with his chasing, tackling, clever taps-ons and timely intercepts.

 

[detox]

Rioli doesnt deserve to be there, the only reason he is being talked about is because of media hype.

Another Stat watcher.

If you watched games, you'd agree that he has played an AA quality season. He may miss out, and if that happens he'd be the next forward picked.

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

Another Stat watcher.

If you watched games, you'd agree that he has played an AA quality season. He may miss out, and if that happens he'd be the next forward picked.

I do watch him, i also watch betts and wingard (the two deserving AAs)

 

[ize_]

Only two tall forwards will be picked surely. Dangerfield will probably be on one flank. They could be annoying and stick someone like Gray on the other one but I reckon he'll get onto the bench, hasn't played deep forward much at all this year. That leaves 3 spots for small/medium forwards. I have Rioli, Wingard and Betts in my team, with Breust still in contention.

I don't think there's been 3 tall forwards better than all those smalls this year. Whoever gets the CHF spot out of Riewoldt, Cameron and Buddy will even probably be able to consider themselves lucky. I can't see the selectors cramming a third tall into the pocket in place of a better performing small based on that.

Of course, the other option is they pick Natainui in the forward pocket.

 

[Back One Out]

Only two tall forwards will be picked surely. Dangerfield will probably be on one flank. They could be annoying and stick someone like Gray on the other one but I reckon he'll get onto the bench, hasn't played deep forward much at all this year. That leaves 3 spots for small/medium forwards. I have Rioli, Wingard and Betts in my team, with Breust still in contention.

I don't think there's been 3 tall forwards better than all those smalls this year. Whoever gets the CHF spot out of Riewoldt, Cameron and Buddy will even probably be able to consider themselves lucky. I can't see the selectors cramming a third tall into the pocket in place of a better performing small based on that.

Of course, the other option is they pick Natainui in the forward pocket.

That's how I see it, except I wouldn't have Buddy anywhere near the AA team this year.
He's had a pretty poor season by his high standards.

I don't think Cameron has had an All Australian year either.

Kennedy will get FF and then CHF will be between the two Jacks: Riewoldt or Gunston.

Not really the powerhouse CHFs that the selectors normally opt for, but they've both been two of the more mobile, elusive, clever CHFs this season. It probably also reflects the changing nature of the game with teams no longer bombing it long to their CHF, but midfielders short-passing the ball all the way inside fifty.

If the selectors go for another contested marking behemoth, then Gold Coast's Tom Lynch might be a smokey.
He would be thereabouts if his team didn't suck so hard in 2015.

 

[ize_]

Lynch could definitely claim a spot if he continues his form and the others stink it up for 3 weeks. Gun.