Another Academy Thread!

[JUBJUB]

Why did you start another academy thread?

Mods, merge this with the long running thread

Yeah,unless it's a Police Academy thread

 

[Established1870]

Right, so clubs have less of an idea than you do?

If it's on the opinion of academies and those clubs agree with Eddie, then I would suggest that a lot of people have more of an idea than those clubs.

I think most recruiters check, so at least 7 recruiters have no idea?

What do recruiters have to do with people following Eddie's opinions on academies?

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

1) I know Jack is from Canberra, I was being slightly sarcastic to shut that other guy up when he said all GWS kids are from the Riverina. Same with HH.

3) I can't remember any decent Riverina product in this millennium before you lot got that area as a zone so I agree with everything you say about that place. You blokes are putting the work in cultivating talent up there (which wasn't happening pre-academies), you deserve first crack.

I knew you were being sarcastic, I was clearing it up for the other numpties who don't know any better.

As for other Riverina products this millennium - there has been a few - some ordinary journeymen, some spuds and some pretty good players. I've bolder the ones I think have gone alright. But it's hardly a huge list compared with the haul post academy establishment. And certainly not a lot of particularly high picks. Quite a few rookies.

2000: Pick 2: Justin Koschitzke: Albury: St Kilda: 200 games
2000: Pick 35: Allan Murray: Lavington: Port Adelaide: 1 game (15 for St Kilda)
2000: Pick 40: Chris Hyde: Barooga: Richmond: 93 games
2001: Pick 28: Mark Powell: Lavington: Sydney Swans: 8 games
2001: Pick 43: Mark McGough: Mulwala: Collingwood: 37 games (12 for St Kilda)
2001: Pick 60: Adam Schneider: Wagga: Sydney: 98 games, 1 premiership (130 for St Kilda)
2002: Pick 9: Hamish McIntosh: Lavington: North Melbourne: 107 games (19 for Geelong)
2005: Rookie Draft: Pick 62: Sam Rowe: Walla Walla: Sydney: 0 games (52 for Carlton)
2006: Pick 41 (F/S): Tom Hawkins: Finley: Geelong: 160+ games, 2 Premierships
2007: Rookie Draft: Pick 22: Matthew Suckling: East Wagga-Kooringal: Hawthorn: 102 games (now at Dogs)
2007: Pick 58: Tony Armstrong: Brocklesby-Burrumbuttock: Adelaide: 14 games (15 for Sydney, 6 for Collingwood)
2008: Rookie Draft: Pick 61: Dean Terlich: Osborne: Sydney: 0 games (delisted, played SANFL before being rookied and later elevated by Melbourne)
2009: Rookie Draft: Pick 47: Luke Breust: Temora: Hawthorn: 120+ games, 3 Premierships
2010: Pick 19: Isaac Smith: Temora/East Wagga-Kooringle: Hawthorn: 115+ games, 3 premierships

 

[LoungeLizard]

If it's on the opinion of academies and those clubs agree with Eddie, then I would suggest that a lot of people have more of an idea than those clubs.



What do recruiters have to do with people following Eddie's opinions on academies?

Because recruiters, you know, recruit players.
At least 7 club recruiters, agree with Eddie.

 

[Established1870]

I knew you were being sarcastic, I was clearing it up for the other numpties who don't know any better.

As for other Riverina products this millennium - there has been a few - some ordinary journeymen, some spuds and some pretty good players. I've bolder the ones I think have gone alright. But it's hardly a huge list compared with the haul post academy establishment. And certainly not a lot of particularly high picks. Quite a few rookies.

2000: Pick 2: Justin Koschitzke: Albury: St Kilda: 200 games
2000: Pick 35: Allan Murray: Lavington: Port Adelaide: 1 game (15 for St Kilda)
2000: Pick 40: Chris Hyde: Barooga: Richmond: 93 games
2001: Pick 28: Mark Powell: Lavington: Sydney Swans: 8 games
2001: Pick 43: Mark McGough: Mulwala: Collingwood: 37 games (12 for St Kilda)
2001: Pick 60: Adam Schneider: Wagga: Sydney: 98 games, 1 premiership (130 for St Kilda)
2002: Pick 9: Hamish McIntosh: Lavington: North Melbourne: 107 games (19 for Geelong)
2005: Rookie Draft: Pick 62: Sam Rowe: Walla Walla: Sydney: 0 games (52 for Carlton)
2006: Pick 41 (F/S): Tom Hawkins: Finley: Geelong: 160+ games, 2 Premierships
2007: Rookie Draft: Pick 22: Matthew Suckling: East Wagga-Kooringal: Hawthorn: 102 games (now at Dogs)
2007: Pick 58: Tony Armstrong: Brocklesby-Burrumbuttock: Adelaide: 14 games (15 for Sydney, 6 for Collingwood)
2008: Rookie Draft: Pick 61: Dean Terlich: Osborne: Sydney: 0 games (delisted, played SANFL before being rookied and later elevated by Melbourne)
2009: Rookie Draft: Pick 47: Luke Breust: Temora: Hawthorn: 120+ games, 3 Premierships
2010: Pick 19: Isaac Smith: Temora/East Wagga-Kooringle: Hawthorn: 115+ games, 3 premierships

I think Suckling, Schneider and (maybe) McIntosh have been good too. But this list just further proves the point that for all the heartland Riverina is meant to be, they haven't made a lot of gold until GWS plumped an academy down there.

 

[Established1870]

At least 7 club recruiters, agree with Eddie.

Um do you actually have sources for this?

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

I think Suckling, Schneider and (maybe) McIntosh have been good too. But this list just further proves the point that for all the heartland Riverina is meant to be, they haven't made a lot of gold until GWS plumped an academy down there.

I would put Scheider, Suckling and McIntosh in the "journeyman" category. Might be good journeymen, but not much better than that. But yeah, not a lot of outstanding players and certainly when you look at where they went in the draft - I mean, Breust at pick 47 in the rookie draft.

Not only does the academy develop and improve the talent, they also bring players who would have been on the very edge of the frame for consideration into the centre.

 

[Suma Magic]

id have no problem with it. hawthorn can put an academy in far north queensland or broome or alice springs or in siberia if they really want. if theyre paying for it im happy if they get priority access and the draft discount. why not allow all clubs to have one in non traditional or regional areas, can only help grow the game.

In response to your last sentence:

I think it's because growing the game is only half of it. The game needs to be grown in an equitable manner. If recruiting success is a product of what zone you have rather than the better players going to the clubs who finish down the bottom then there is a major equity issue.

 

[1892]

From what I have noticed, most clubs follow Eddie on the opinion of academies, so those idiots lose their right to have opinions as well.


Also, because this needs repeating:

That NSW Scholarship thing they had going before the Academies got barely any talent in whatsoever

And want to know why academies won't work if it's an "AFL" Academy over a club academy? Because a big attraction for these kids in the NE of Australia is being able to play for their city/state rather than a bloody league they wouldn't of had a clue about before getting into the academy.

Academies are working in bringing through talent from places talent wouldn't usually come from, they're a good tool in growing our game and the clubs in RL/Soccer heartland long-term, they help with player retention for all sides and not just 4 (as explained above), it grows the talent pool long term (another supposed problem even though that's fair BS) and overall it gives our code more exposure all over the country.

The NSW scholarship program didn't cover all of NSW, specially the high recruitment areas enjoyed by GWS, so it's not comparable. Taylor Walker is the obvious success, with Witts, Will Langford and Michael Hartley still on AFL lists. Off the top of my head Tom Young, Scott Reed, Trent Stubbs, Will Sierakowski, Lloyd Perris, Craig Moller also made AFL lists.

 

[Garlic muncher]

1) I know Jack is from Canberra, I was being slightly sarcastic to shut that other guy up when he said all GWS kids are from the Riverina. Same with HH.

2) People just aren't used to simple logistics when discussing academies. I keep telling people that academies will grow talent for all clubs, not just for you lot up North. It's in the first paragraph of my thread FFS yet we're still getting people going on about "unfairness".

3) I can't remember any decent Riverina product in this millennium before you lot got that area as a zone so I agree with everything you say about that place. You blokes are putting the work in cultivating talent up there (which wasn't happening pre-academies), you deserve first crack.

Just off the top i know PA drafted Dougal Howard from Wagga and Logan Austin from Canberra quite recently.

Both went through the GWS academy, i doubt without it Logan probably would not be playing in the AFL

 

[Bokonon]

LOL! If Eddie didn't control the strings to that puppet/muppet Dil McLaughlin he would be so irrelevant. Problem is that Eddie and the Hawthorn mafia control the AFL, it's why so much is loaded against interstate and minor Melbourne clubs, unless you are the AFL's lovechild GWS!

I like to think that I'm a fair minded person, I know Swans got a bargain with Heeney and Mills but they look to be outliers and both would not be playing AFL if not for the Swans academy. Swans have done an outstanding job working with a zone that is not in the slightest way AFL aware. Doesn't appear to be any more of that class in the foreseeable future for the Swans.

Brisbane and Gold Coast need all the help they can get, Brisbane need a lot more and the AFL needs to do something for them NOW. Poaching of their young talent has to stop. Very happy for the Qld academies to continue untouched by new rules for the future until Qld AFL is of an acceptable sustainable standard.

GWS academy zone is looking like a rort. They have not got one player of any note from their huge zone except for the Riverina which was an area ripe for the picking. The NSW U16 squad has 16 GWS academy players, all from the Riverina. Given the start up largesse they received and are still receiving, they should now have the Riverina excluded from their zone and it should be taken over by the AFL for the general draft pool.

Potato potarto, we're a wholly owned subsidiary of the AFL, cant see much difference given we have to bid market price.If other clubs want to bundle useless picks and trade with us so be it

 

[1892]

I knew you were being sarcastic, I was clearing it up for the other numpties who don't know any better.

As for other Riverina products this millennium - there has been a few - some ordinary journeymen, some spuds and some pretty good players. I've bolder the ones I think have gone alright. But it's hardly a huge list compared with the haul post academy establishment. And certainly not a lot of particularly high picks. Quite a few rookies.

2000: Pick 2: Justin Koschitzke: Albury: St Kilda: 200 games
2000: Pick 35: Allan Murray: Lavington: Port Adelaide: 1 game (15 for St Kilda)
2000: Pick 40: Chris Hyde: Barooga: Richmond: 93 games
2001: Pick 28: Mark Powell: Lavington: Sydney Swans: 8 games
2001: Pick 43: Mark McGough: Mulwala: Collingwood: 37 games (12 for St Kilda)
2001: Pick 60: Adam Schneider: Wagga: Sydney: 98 games, 1 premiership (130 for St Kilda)
2002: Pick 9: Hamish McIntosh: Lavington: North Melbourne: 107 games (19 for Geelong)
2005: Rookie Draft: Pick 62: Sam Rowe: Walla Walla: Sydney: 0 games (52 for Carlton)
2006: Pick 41 (F/S): Tom Hawkins: Finley: Geelong: 160+ games, 2 Premierships
2007: Rookie Draft: Pick 22: Matthew Suckling: East Wagga-Kooringal: Hawthorn: 102 games (now at Dogs)
2007: Pick 58: Tony Armstrong: Brocklesby-Burrumbuttock: Adelaide: 14 games (15 for Sydney, 6 for Collingwood)
2008: Rookie Draft: Pick 61: Dean Terlich: Osborne: Sydney: 0 games (delisted, played SANFL before being rookied and later elevated by Melbourne)
2009: Rookie Draft: Pick 47: Luke Breust: Temora: Hawthorn: 120+ games, 3 Premierships
2010: Pick 19: Isaac Smith: Temora/East Wagga-Kooringle: Hawthorn: 115+ games, 3 premierships

Keeping it to post 2000 Daniel Cross (2000, Albury), Henry Playfair (2001, Holbrook), Taylor Duryea (2009, Corowa) and Harry Cunningham (2011, Wagga) are a few others.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

Michael Hartley still on AFL lists.

Interesting turn of phrase - he was drafted last year at pick 68 by Essendon as a 23 year old after not making it at his scholarship club (Collingwood) and then going off and playing for Coburg - "still on a list" is a bit of a stretch. A story of perseverance, yes, but demonstration of success of the program.... not so much.

We have Daniel Lloyd who was scholarshipped to the Dogs but didn't make it - went back to Kilarney-Vale, kicked 9 in a semi final, was spotted, took six weeks leave without pay from his landscaping job to train and try for a rookie contract with us, did enough, has shown enough to be elevated - waiting on an injury report from the NEAFL game on the weekend but is close to senior selection. But again, these are stories of perseverance and not necessarily of a program's success.

Besides the scholarship program was so very limited. A couple of kids each year who had already shown a bit. The GWS academy currently has some 650 kids aged 13-17 across a dozen different centres. 3 full time coaches, 50 part time coaches and fitness and support staff.

Yes they produce and develop top end talent for the draft - but they also nurture the next tier down. The kids who won't make it, but who will go back to their clubs and make their clubs better and help the next lot along. We've got a young man at my son's local club who went through part of the academy program. Never made it, but he now works with the under 12's and under 14's passing on what he learned. The 12's have just won their ninth straight, and there's a couple of kids there who might wind up in next year's academy intake.

It's about growing the game and growing the talent pool and strengthening local grass roots footy across the board.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

Keeping it to post 2000 Daniel Cross (2000, Albury), Henry Playfair (2001, Holbrook), Taylor Duryea (2009, Corowa) and Harry Cunningham (2011, Wagga) are a few others.

Fair enough - when I put the list together and posted in one of these interminable threads back in May, I did say then that it was incomplete - and only up to 2010 - so Cunningham was never added to the list (you know he played for us in our 2011 NEAFL season before going to the swans - part of our first ever run-on side) - but I should have put the same caveat on it again.

 

[IronMike]

Academies are working in bringing through talent from places talent wouldn't usually come from, they're a good tool in growing our game and the clubs in RL/Soccer heartland long-term,

"Talent wouldn't usually come from" Riverina? Surely you're joking. It has produced some of the best players to ever play the game.

Wayne Carey - The Greatest of All time.
Shane Crawford - Brownlow medalist
Paul Kelly - Brownlow medalist
Brian Gleeson
 - Brownlow medalist
Neale Daniher - Absolute Legend.
Allan Jeans - Hall of Fame, 4x Premiership Coach, arguably greatest coach of all time.
Terry Daniher - Hall of Fame
Bill Mohr - Hall of Fame
Billy Brownless - All Australian
John Longmire - Multiple Premier, AA, Coleman, BnF
David Murphy - AA, Sydney team of Century
Cameron Mooney - Multiple Premier(x3)
Tom Hawkins - Multiple Premier, AA, Best and Fairest
Bernard Toohey - All Australian
Leo Barry - 2x All Australian, Premiership hero
Luke Breust - 3x Premier, All Australian
Matt Suckling - 2x Premier
Isaac Smith - 3x Premier
Anthony Daniher - 233 games, All Australian

They are the notables, but the list is endless.....We could go on forever, 



Adam Schneider 

Ben Mathews
Justin Koschitzke



Bert Clay

Hamish McIntosh
Chris Daniher
Bill Brown


George Anderson

etc etc..

Riverina is AFL heartland, it's as simple as that. That's why it's no surprise it is producing 4-5x more AFL players for GWS than the rest of the Academies combined. So how is that fair? Whilst GC and Brisbane are trying to draw blood from a stone with their academies in true Rugby League heartland, GWS have a endless supply of elite talent which all grew up playing AFL.

But this is just another of the endless concessions GWS have over the other Northern clubs. GWS still have a bigger salary cap than GC, bigger list size concessions, on top of all the other concessions in the past they received like the mini draft etc.

Most educated people don't have a problem with the idea of Academies, but like everything in the AFL there needs to be balance and equality, which there currently isn't (especially when it comes to the Sydney clubs compared to the Queensland clubs).

 

[1892]

Interesting turn of phrase - he was drafted last year at pick 68 by Essendon as a 23 year old after not making it at his scholarship club (Collingwood) and then going off and playing for Coburg. A story of perseverance, yes, but demonstration of success of the program.... not so much.

We have Daniel Lloyd who was scholarshipped to the Dogs but didn't make it - went back to Kilarney-Vale, kicked 9 in a semi final, was spotted, took six weeks leave without pay from his landscaping job to train and try for a rookie contract with us, did enough, has shown enough to be elevated - waiting on an injury report from the NEAFL game on the weekend but is close to senior selection. But again, these are stories of perseverance and not necessarily of a program's success.

Besides the scholarship program was so very limited. A couple of kids each year who had already shown a bit. The GWS academy currently has some 650 kids aged 13-17 across a dozen different centres. 3 full time coaches, 50 part time coaches and fitness and support staff.

Yes they produce and develop top end talent for the draft - but they also nurture the next tier down. The kids who won't make it, but who will go back to their clubs and make their clubs better and help the next lot along. We've got a young man at my son's local club who went through part of the academy program. Never made it, but he now works with the under 12's and under 14's passing on what he learned. The 12's have just won their ninth straight, and there's a couple of kids there who might wind up in next year's academy intake.

It's about growing the game and growing the talent pool and strengthening local grass roots footy across the board.

Hartley couldn't get on the park at Collingwood due to reoccurring shoulder injuries and he's admitted he had a poor attitude, so it wasn't a lack of talent. Being delisted gave him a wake up call and his body came good. His hard work and persistence in the VFL paid off, but who knows if he would have been playing aussie rules without the scholarship?

Daniel Lloyd sounds like an interesting story.

Fair enough - when I put the list together and posted in one of these interminable threads back in May, I did say then that it was incomplete - and only up to 2010 - so Cunningham was never added to the list (you know he played for us in our 2011 NEAFL season before going to the swans - part of our first ever run-on side) - but I should have put the same caveat on it again.

Am sure there's more out there too, easy to miss some as there's no real list. Don't know much about Cunningham, sounds similar to Josh Thomas who played TAC cup with Gold Coast in their first season.

 

[IronMike]

I think Suckling, Schneider and (maybe) McIntosh have been good too. But this list just further proves the point that for all the heartland Riverina is meant to be, they haven't made a lot of gold until GWS plumped an academy down there.

Hahaha. Ok. If 4 brownlow medalist's, the greatest player and the greatest coach of all time, multiple hall of famers, All Australians, Premiership hero's, isn't "gold" then what is?

Just pure rubbish. How many zones outside Victoria have a AFL resume as good as Riverina?

 

[RUNVS]

I think people do not realise just how big the Riverina actually is

How can a part of NSW that is almost in the middle of the state be considered too close to the Victorian border.

 

[Established1870]

Hahaha. Ok. If 4 brownlow medalist's, the greatest player and the greatest coach of all time, multiple hall of famers, All Australians, Premiership hero's, isn't "gold" then what is?

Just pure rubbish. How many zones outside Victoria have a AFL resume as good as Riverina?

Seems you forgot the part where I said Riverina ran dry after 2000. I don't mind a good argument but please don't ignore what I say just to make your argument look good in comparison.

 

[IronMike]

Seems you forgot the part where I said Riverina ran dry after 2000. I don't mind a good argument but please don't ignore what I say just to make your argument look good in comparison.

Since 2000 Riverina players have won a combined 16+ AFL Premierships. Yea they've ran real "dry"

 

[IronMike]

Seems you forgot the part where I said Riverina ran dry after 2000. I don't mind a good argument but please don't ignore what I say just to make your argument look good in comparison.

Riverina has also produced 7 All Australians since 2000.

So you don't mind a good argument you say, let's hear it? Or do you simply have no idea what you're talking about?

 

[Suma Magic]

I think people do not realise just how big the Riverina actually is

How can a part of NSW that is almost in the middle of the state be considered too close to the Victorian border.

I don't think the concern is with the part that is "almost in the middle of the state".

 

[raymond35]

Thanks iron mike, you've made my day. I've never seen anyone get torn a new arse as conclusively as you just did to that person. Kudos!

 

[Established1870]

Since 2000 Riverina players have won a combined 16+ AFL Premierships. Yea they've ran real "dry"

Riverina has also produced 7 All Australians since 2000.

"And as for the Riverina being a heartland area that always produces top quality. This has been rubbished and proven so far from the truth in numerous previous academy threads in the past that I couldn't be bothered doing it again. Some champions, yes, absolutely, but for the 15 years prior to the academy - not so much."

-Ichabod Noodle

Why write up a perfectly good argument when someone's already done it?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Um do you actually have sources for this?

I thought you knew more than everyone else?


CLUB 1

“Credit to Sydney, they got Callum Mills out of North Shore, which is not AFL heartland. GWS is pulling them out of Albury and Wagga, which is AFL heartland, so it’s laughable.

“And when you talk (with others) in the market, they (GWS) haven’t done a lot (development) with these kids.

“(Will) Setterfield is from Caulfield Grammar and (Jacob) Hopper is from St Pats and it goes on and on. It is near impossible to compete.”

CLUB 2

“They (GWS) can get up to nine players (out of NSW) this year, which may be the equivalent to WA and SA’s draft talent combined.

“So the Giants not only have exclusive rights to them (players), they get them at a discounted rate, it’s Harvey Norman.

“So, instead of using pick No. 5, they can use, say, pick No. 8. They (AFL) have to reconsider the concessions they give them (GWS).”

CLUB 3

“It’s a joke, it it’s embarrassing and very frustrating. They’ve got about 10 kids they (GWS) will get and there might be only six kids coming out of South Australia this year.

“The answer is uncompromising drafting once and for all. It’s OK for Victorian and West Australian kids to move, it’s just ridiculous.

CLUB 4

“They have heaps this year — and they’re guns. A few of them are A-graders, too — first-rounders.

“Macreadie, Setterfield ... they’re in a very, very good position. The depth of talent, geez.”

CLUB 5

“The Giants have just rubbed it in everyone’s faces by doing so little work, putting in so little effort and then taking all the rewards.

“I’d get rid of all the academies, but if they have to have one it should be in Sydney’s west, not broader areas.

“The level of anger is high because we can see the academy players coming through in the next couple of years.

CLUB 6

“(Todd) Marshall was overseas playing cricket, comes home, starts playing footy, looks like an absolute star and they can just get him for nothing. It’s ridiculous.

“If they get kids from (rugby areas) Orange and Bathurst and Griffith — go for it. Get those kids and put time in to expand the pool. Put more time into Canberra.

“They can claim 19-year-olds as well, like when they got Jack Steele and Lachie Tiziani this year. If you have a chance you take it, if you don’t they should be available to the whole pool.

CLUB 7

“They’re not putting enough into those kids because they know they’re natural football kids.

“All they have to do now is show development plans for them and in the past they didn’t even have to talk to them until their draft year.”