Best young KPF moving forward?

[Jade]

He's two years older than Hogan.

Compare their years when both were 20 and 21 year olds.

While you're at it, see how many goals they'd both kicked at 45 games. Compare their contested marks and marks inside 50 at the same stage, i.e. 45 games.

Hogan is a mile ahead.

And this right here is almost always the immediate and categorical failure of ANYONE trying to argue that Hogan is the better player and/or prospect than Daniher - trying to argue where they were at when at a specific age. The argument wants to force the belief that because at age 20 Hogan was better than Daniher, the same will be true at 21... 26, 27 - you get the point.

No one is disputing that Hogan was very good, unusually so for a key position player very early in the piece - but it does not follow that he will continue to be better than his peers as he ages.

The entire argument can be refuted remarkably easily - watch:

Who was better as a 19 year old? Dyson Heppell or Gary Ablett Jr?

Yeah... you can see how quickly that falls apart, eh?

You're predicting Daniher will have the better career. I predict Hogan will have the better career.

Actually I haven't made that prediction in this discussion. My statement was far simpler - Daniher is a better player.

I get the context of the thread though, who will have a better career - so that's ok, just pointing out what I actually said.

Even this year, Daniher's best (as a 23 year old), isn't vastly superior to Hogan's 2015 when he was 20. The only difference is a goal-kicking average of 2.7 to 2, which is relatively minor, i.e. about 15 goals for the year. Their remaining stats would barely differ.

You don't think 15 goals is a significant difference?

Hogan is more aggressive, as good a contested mark (not as good at leaping over packs),

Not sure about more aggressive, nor do I think it really matters - it's the actual onfield result that matters, not the aggression that preceded the result.

better footy IQ,

Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

better with the ball on the deck,

Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

and just as skilled (I'd argue better) with general field skills.

Daniher is one of the best field kicks in our side.

Mate, Daniher is well and truly superior to Hogan - and I mean no disrespect to Hogan who I rate very highly.

 

[Trav 20]

And this right here is almost always the immediate and categorical failure of ANYONE trying to argue that Hogan is the better player and/or prospect than Daniher - trying to argue where they were at when at a specific age. The argument wants to force the belief that because at age 20 Hogan was better than Daniher, the same will be true at 21... 26, 27 - you get the point.

No one is disputing that Hogan was very good, unusually so for a key position player very early in the piece - but it does not follow that he will continue to be better than his peers as he ages.

The entire argument can be refuted remarkably easily - watch:

Who was better as a 19 year old? Dyson Heppell or Gary Ablett Jr?

Yeah... you can see how quickly that falls apart, eh?



Actually I haven't made that prediction in this discussion. My statement was far simpler - Daniher is a better player.

I get the context of the thread though, who will have a better career - so that's ok, just pointing out what I actually said.



You don't think 15 goals is a significant difference?



Not sure about more aggressive, nor do I think it really matters - it's the actual onfield result that matters, not the aggression that preceded the result.



Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.



Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.



Daniher is one of the best field kicks in our side.

Mate, Daniher is well and truly superior to Hogan - and I mean no disrespect to Hogan who I rate very highly.

I disagree.

While you're correct to say there are no guarantees Hogan will have a linear progression there's also no reason or evidence to suggest he won't. Every gun key forward is better at 25 than 21. They're fitter, stronger, smarter (game craft/experience), have more belief, etc.

Just because Hogan is a gun at 20 doesn't mean he doesn't have significant improvement.

All things being equal I'll back the young gun key tall over the later developer, although Daniher showed good signs early too. Go back through history and tell me who have been the best key forwards. The ones who were guns at 21 or the ones who have been guns at 24-26.

Wade, Hart, McKenna, Lockett, Dunstall, Carey, Kernahan, Lloyd, Brereton, et al were all guns by 21-22 and they continued to get better. To think Hogan has peaked at 20-21 is ridiculous. The facts deem the opposite more likely.

And yes, we absolutely disagree about ground-ball skills, footy IQ, etc. Hogan is elite in this regard. Hogan can't kick the long goals Daniher can, but in every other significant ground-ball skill he has Daniher's measure.

 

[Ambrosia]

And yes, we absolutely disagree about ground-ball skills, footy IQ, etc. Hogan is elite in this regard. Hogan can't kick the long goals Daniher can, but in every other significant ground-ball skill he has Daniher's measure.

Glossing over Daniher's penetrating long kicking is the epitome of stupid.

Daniher regularly makes 80-90m plays by receiving the ball up the ground then using his leg speed to carry the ball and kick long into an open forward line.

More than happy to concede Hogan as the better handball in congestion but in terms of important "ground skills" for key forwards no one in their right mind is valuing Hogan's work in congestion over penetrating kicking with run and carry.

That's without even mentioning the fact Daniher has shown an excellent ability create scores out of nothing inside 50.

 

[Jade]

I disagree.

While you're correct to say there are no guarantees Hogan will have a linear progression there's also no reason or evidence to suggest he won't. Every gun key forward is better at 25 than 21. They're fitter, stronger, smarter (game craft/experience), have more belief, etc.

Just because Hogan is a gun at 20 doesn't mean he doesn't have significant improvement.

All things being equal I'll back the young gun key tall over the later developer, although Daniher showed good signs early too. Go back through history and tell me who have been the best key forwards. The ones who were guns at 21 or the ones who have been guns at 24-26.

Wade, Hart, McKenna, Lockett, Dunstall, Carey, Kernahan, Lloyd, Brereton, et al were all guns by 21-22 and they continued to get better. To think Hogan has peaked at 20-21 is ridiculous. The facts deem the opposite more likely.

And yes, we absolutely disagree about ground-ball skills, footy IQ, etc. Hogan is elite in this regard. Hogan can't kick the long goals Daniher can, but in every other significant ground-ball skill he has Daniher's measure.

We'll have to agree to disagree - it is my firm belief that not a single club would choose Hogan over Daniher.

 

[Pannalstaroz]

Nothing like objectivity.

 

[00Stinger]

Ok so Daniher has finally had a better season than Hogan (where Jesse has not played). So despite Daniher being older than Hogan this means there can be NO arguement against Daniher being the superior player both no and for their careers, arguement over.

Seems legit

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[Jade]

Ok so Daniher has finally had a better season than Hogan (where Jesse has not played). So despite Daniher being older than Hogan this means there can be NO arguement against Daniher being the superior player.

Seems legit

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No, there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player, because there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player.

I mean seriously, its simply not in dispute, he IS the better player; verifiably so.

Now, you can start talking about reasons WHY that might be (ie. Hogan's illness, age difference etc etc) and that's ok - go for your life.

But don't for one second kid yourself, Daniher is the better of the two.

 

[00Stinger]

No, there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player, because there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player.

I mean seriously, its simply not in dispute, he IS the better player; verifiably so.

Now, you can start talking about reasons WHY that might be (ie. Hogan's illness, age difference etc etc) and that's ok - go for your life.

But don't for one second kid yourself, Daniher is the better of the two.

Cool Daniher has finally been the better player for 10 weeks.

Hogan has been s**t for the last 10 weeks. Oh that's right he hasnt played.

Now I'm not saying Daniher may be the better player. Im just saying that given how well hogan's first 2 seasons were to write him off now (when he has had cancer, his dad has died and he has not played) as not as good as Daniher is utterly stupid.

But hey that is bias speaking from my behalf, which you are showing now as well

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[Jade]

Now I'm not saying Daniher may be the better player. Im just saying that given how well hogan's first 2 seasons were to write him off now (when he has had cancer, his dad has died and he has not played) as not as good as Daniher is utterly stupid.

Find me one post of mine - just one - where I am writing Hogan off.

Reckon you'll be wading through dozens of my posts singing his praises...

So do you reckon you're maybe presenting a strawman argument there perhaps?

 

[00Stinger]

Find me one post of mine - just one - where I am writing Hogan off.

Reckon you'll be wading through dozens of my posts singing his praises...

So do you reckon you're maybe presenting a strawman argument there perhaps?

You said there is no arguement that Daniher is not the best of these players.



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[Jade]

You said there is no arguement that Daniher is not the best of these players.

Indeed I did.

That is not even remotely writing Hogan off - kid is an awesome talent.

But Daniher IS demonstrably better. I'm sorry, but it is what it is.

 

[00Stinger]

Indeed I did.

That is not even remotely writing Hogan off - kid is an awesome talent.

But Daniher IS demonstrably better. I'm sorry, but it is what it is.

He is based on this years form where Hogan has really not played.

Until Hogan is back playing regularly, when he had previously been the better of the two you cannot unbiasly say he is not as good as Daniher. Fact

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[Jade]

He is based on this years form where Hogan has really not played.

Until Hogan is back playing regularly, when he had previously been the better of the two you cannot unbiasly say he is not as good as Daniher. Fact

That's just not true mate. It has next to nothing to do with Hogan not playing.

It has to do with the fact that Daniher, right now, is playing better football than Hogan has EVER played.

Now if you want to say that you believe that Hogan will improve when he plays again consistently, and that improvement will take him past Daniher (and any improvement Joey still has left) - fine. I can't disprove your belief there, though I would say it's based entirely on hopes, and really nothing more than that.

For the sake of the argument, I almost wish Daniher WASN'T an Essendon player, so as to remove the accusation of being biased. Of course I love the bloke, but my assessment of him as a player as it relates to this particular discussion really has nothing to do with him wearing red and black.

 

[00Stinger]

That's just not true mate. It has next to nothing to do with Hogan not playing.

It has to do with the fact that Daniher, right now, is playing better football than Hogan has EVER played.

Now if you want to say that you believe that Hogan will improve when he plays again consistently, and that improvement will take him past Daniher (and any improvement Joey still has left) - fine. I can't disprove your belief there, though I would say it's based entirely on hopes, and really nothing more than that.

For the sake of the argument, I almost wish Daniher WASN'T an Essendon player, so as to remove the accusation of being biased. Of course I love the bloke, but my assessment of him as a player as it relates to this particular discussion really has nothing to do with him wearing red and black.

So my point stands. You said there is NO ARGUEMENT that Hogan could be better than Daniher.

My arguement has wholly been based around the fact that that is not the case.



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[Pannalstaroz]

That's just not true mate. It has next to nothing to do with Hogan not playing.

It has to do with the fact that Daniher, right now, is playing better football than Hogan has EVER played.

Now if you want to say that you believe that Hogan will improve when he plays again consistently, and that improvement will take him past Daniher (and any improvement Joey still has left) - fine. I can't disprove your belief there, though I would say it's based entirely on hopes, and really nothing more than that.

For the sake of the argument, I almost wish Daniher WASN'T an Essendon player, so as to remove the accusation of being biased. Of course I love the bloke, but my assessment of him as a player as it relates to this particular discussion really has nothing to do with him wearing red and black.

But the fact you watch Joe closer than any other player on the list doesn't seem to cloud your views of others? Come on. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Jade]

So my point stands. You said there is NO ARGUEMENT that Hogan could be better than Daniher.

My arguement has wholly been based around the fact that that is not the case.

Here's my comment:

No, there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player, because there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player.

I mean seriously, its simply not in dispute, he IS the better player; verifiably so.

That is categorically, indisputably correct. Daniher IS the better player. There is simply no argument that can be made to suggest otherwise.

 

[Jade]

But the fact you watch Joe closer than any other player on the list doesn't seem to cloud your views of others? Come on. Don't be ridiculous.

I watch Darcy Parish just as close, and you don't see me claiming he's better than Oliver. You can't have it both ways mate.

 

[00Stinger]

Here's my comment:

No, there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player, because there is no argument against Daniher being the superior player.

I mean seriously, its simply not in dispute, he IS the better player; verifiably so.

That is categorically, indisputably correct. Daniher IS the better player. There is simply no argument that can be made to suggest otherwise.

Yep Daniher has indisputably been the better player since Hogan has had cancer and has been unable to play.

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[Jade]

Yep Daniher has indisputably been the better player since Hogan has had cancer and has been unable to play.

Daniher has been the better player since his ability to play surpassed anything Jesse Hogan has ever produced.

 

[00Stinger]

Daniher has been the better player since his ability to play surpassed anything Jesse Hogan has ever produced.

Which coincidently has been since Jesse hasnt been able to play?

Despite being younger?

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[Jade]

Which coincidently has been since Jesse hasnt been able to play?

Despite being younger?

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Coincidence has nothing to do with it.

It is what it is. Joe Daniher has played a level of football in 2017 that Jesse Hogan has never been able to attain.

Now IF Hogan had played, would he have exceeded that? Maybe... I'd say you're hoping more than predicting, but sure - anything is possible.

But he hasn't, has he? And Jesse Hogan has never played footy as good as Daniher currently is. Hence, Joe Daniher is the superior player.

And my friend, youth has nothing to do with it. Zach Merrett has NEVER played football at the level Gary Ablett has. But he's younger, so therefore he will - it's pure nonsense.

 

[00Stinger]

Coincidence has nothing to do with it.

It is what it is. Joe Daniher has played a level of football in 2017 that Jesse Hogan has never been able to attain.

Now IF Hogan had played, would he have exceeded that? Maybe... I'd say you're hoping more than predicting, but sure - anything is possible.

But he hasn't, has he? And Jesse Hogan has never played footy as good as Daniher currently is. Hence, Joe Daniher is the superior player.

And my friend, youth has nothing to do with it. Zach Merrett has NEVER played football at the level Gary Ablett has. But he's younger, so therefore he will - it's pure nonsense.

So your arguement that Hogan will never reach Danihers level this year is based totally upon assumption? There for is total bias.
Your analogies are useless. Which is my point

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[Jade]

So your arguement that Hogan will never reach Danihers level this year is based totally upon assumption? There for is total bias.
Your analogies are useless. Which is my point

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I'm not arguing that Hogan will or will not meet or exceed Danihers output.

I'm saying he never has.

 

[Pannalstaroz]

I watch Darcy Parish just as close, and you don't see me claiming he's better than Oliver. You can't have it both ways mate.

Hang on, what? What are you talking about? What a ridiculous comment.

 

[Jade]

Hang on, what? What are you talking about? What a ridiculous comment.

No it isn't. This is you realising you've been completely had, but being too weak a person to admit it.

Straight to block. I don't waste my time with small people.