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Official Club Stuff BREAKING: Luke Sayers steps down effective immediately (Jan 22nd)!
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You are still, only looking at one club
Blue and Silver
Brownlow Medallist
John Elliott worked as a consultant.
Smorgon and Pratt were family business.
Collins went from coach to administrator
Brian Cook extending his stay would reflect on something I have been saying about Carlton, we have a tarnished reputation that is going to take many years to fix. This tarnished reputation is our greatest problem and the head of all problems at Carlton. He knows this and he probably wants to achieve this goal before he leaves. I don't know how long but 3-5 years is probably up there if we are perfect when it comes to fixing this.
So far these are Carlton's issues.
1. Reputation. AFL is an incredibly competitive environment. The best people go to a select group of clubs who are the best clubs. We are not one of those clubs. We are not a good employer or organisation to work for. No one's manager will be recommending Carlton. As a coach you want to work for a club which offers excellent job security and offers a supporting environment which sets you up for success which is not us. At a glance I would think those better clubs would be Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond, Sydney, Western Bulldogs and Melbourne. Probably add West Coast even though they are in a really bad patch, Port Adelaide and Brisbane. Then it's the rest, of which we are a part of. We are not a destination club for good sort after people and that is purely on us.
Over the last 23 years we have built a reputation as a club which horribly understaffs it's football department. Recruits poorly, develops talent poorly, sacks people quickly, throws people under the bus and does not give people the opportunity to right their failures. We are a club you can't fail at and survive.
So after all those clubs listed above have had their pick of the football staff, we get what's left and that is what we have.
2. Our recruiting has not been good enough. Because of the coaching turnover and possibly having the wrong people in our recruiting has had no direction. The coach needs to come in and say "hey the game has changed, we want more leg speed and better kicking" but that sort of thing hasn't happened. Without a good solid coach at the helm the recruiters go in with their own ideas and best available approach.
Our recruiting has also been targeted at the way the game was played before the AFL changed the rules and opened the game up. The rolling maul, up the boundary heavily contested game that it used to be. That's the path our recruiting direction has gone in. If the game was still played that way then we would be a lot better, we have the team for that. We have this big heavy slow team that gets slaughtered by every side that can run and with the 666 rule, stand rule and kick out rule we can't stop them, we can't slow teams down and force the game into a contest to make it the sort of game that suites us.
IMO the teams who saw this coming and started to focus on leg speed, run and kicking. Players who were more outside are the teams that are doing better at the moment. We didn't change and see this coming and change our recruiting direction and that has a lot to do with the coaching direction coming from Teague and his group.
We have also taken in too many injury prone players. Yes a lot were worth the gamble but it's taking a toll on the team.
3. Our list. Again our list isn't great. Too slow, running and kicking is not up to it. We were too slow and top heavy and we brought in more guys like Hewett who were too slow and top heavy. We were desperate for small forward who are also too slow and not kicking goals and we didn't recruit any last draft. We carry a heap of players on our list who have no chance of playing AFL. We have no small forwards in the reserves. We are carrying too many ruckmen and smalls who don't really have a position. Our list is middle of the road, out of date and clogged up by players who can't play AFL footy.
4. Stability. We need people here who will be here for the long haul. The president, the CEO, football department etc. Stability means we have a good direction with recruiting and sort after people are going to want to have strong stability at the club coming in. Continually changing the coach, CEO only being on short term, it's not a good look. Not knowing who you will be working under in 2 years time is not something that installs a lot of comfort in people.
Solutions...
1. What can we do about our tarnished reputation and get people back to wanting to work for Carlton again? In 2000 We had David Parkin as head coach, he played under one of the greatest coaches of all time, he came from success and he brought success with him, he was one of the better coaches of the era and someone we really backed in. He was the last coach we had who retired. Under him was Brittain who was seen as a tactical specialist, Kernahan who was seen as one of the greatest leaders of the era and came from an extremely successful background and clubs, Greg Williams who ticks the same boxes, Barry Mitchell who has been long regarded as a good football person, Ross Lyon who has gone on to be a very successful coach and John Worsfold who went on to be a very successful premiership coach with west coast.
We haven't seen a coaching group nearly that good since. It ticked a lot of boxes in terms of diversity (forwards, backs, mids, talls and smalls). People from other clubs, people from successful clubs, people fresh out of the game from good clubs. It's something we haven't been able to do since. A lot of people we have taken are from unsuccessful clubs or from unsuccessful periods.
IMO it's going to take years before we strip ourselves of our poor reputation. Having well renowned people there with good reputations helps. Cook is one of those people. Our current president has no reputation yet, this challenge Voss is receiving now will determine what reputation he gets. We just need to continue proving that we are a coach supporting and coach friendly club and slowly improve our reputation so we become one of the clubs the managers of these individuals recommend working for.
Having better people in charge always helps. I don't like the messiah thing but getting someone like Neil Balme would be an instant fix to our reputation. Good people want to work under him, he has a reputation, he lands at clubs and wins them premierships and this is one of the big reasons why, his reputation allows him to get good people in and he knows what he is doing. I'm not sure we could get someone like this in but this would be a start.
We need to be the best club for a coach to work at in the land. Support them in a way they can have success by having really good people in the footy department, support them to succeeded (give them what they want/need), support them mentally, support them with extra staff if they need them. Do what ever it takes to make people want to work here again.
2 and 3. Recruiting direction. I'm not sure it's great. We picked some players we needed. Hollands, Binns, Lemmy were all types we needed but we came up empty handed on the small forward requirement. A quality and stable coaching group will see us target quick players who can kick, chase, tackle and fit in with the modern game. Will also see us target small forwards. I don't think we have recruited bad players, I think we haven't always recruited the right players.
So far these are Carlton's issues.
1. Reputation. AFL is an incredibly competitive environment. The best people go to a select group of clubs who are the best clubs. We are not one of those clubs. We are not a good employer or organisation to work for. No one's manager will be recommending Carlton. As a coach you want to work for a club which offers excellent job security and offers a supporting environment which sets you up for success which is not us. At a glance I would think those better clubs would be Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond, Sydney, Western Bulldogs and Melbourne. Probably add West Coast even though they are in a really bad patch, Port Adelaide and Brisbane. Then it's the rest, of which we are a part of. We are not a destination club for good sort after people and that is purely on us.
Over the last 23 years we have built a reputation as a club which horribly understaffs it's football department. Recruits poorly, develops talent poorly, sacks people quickly, throws people under the bus and does not give people the opportunity to right their failures. We are a club you can't fail at and survive.
So after all those clubs listed above have had their pick of the football staff, we get what's left and that is what we have.
2. Our recruiting has not been good enough. Because of the coaching turnover and possibly having the wrong people in our recruiting has had no direction. The coach needs to come in and say "hey the game has changed, we want more leg speed and better kicking" but that sort of thing hasn't happened. Without a good solid coach at the helm the recruiters go in with their own ideas and best available approach.
Our recruiting has also been targeted at the way the game was played before the AFL changed the rules and opened the game up. The rolling maul, up the boundary heavily contested game that it used to be. That's the path our recruiting direction has gone in. If the game was still played that way then we would be a lot better, we have the team for that. We have this big heavy slow team that gets slaughtered by every side that can run and with the 666 rule, stand rule and kick out rule we can't stop them, we can't slow teams down and force the game into a contest to make it the sort of game that suites us.
IMO the teams who saw this coming and started to focus on leg speed, run and kicking. Players who were more outside are the teams that are doing better at the moment. We didn't change and see this coming and change our recruiting direction and that has a lot to do with the coaching direction coming from Teague and his group.
We have also taken in too many injury prone players. Yes a lot were worth the gamble but it's taking a toll on the team.
3. Our list. Again our list isn't great. Too slow, running and kicking is not up to it. We were too slow and top heavy and we brought in more guys like Hewett who were too slow and top heavy. We were desperate for small forward who are also too slow and not kicking goals and we didn't recruit any last draft. We carry a heap of players on our list who have no chance of playing AFL. We have no small forwards in the reserves. We are carrying too many ruckmen and smalls who don't really have a position. Our list is middle of the road, out of date and clogged up by players who can't play AFL footy.
4. Stability. We need people here who will be here for the long haul. The president, the CEO, football department etc. Stability means we have a good direction with recruiting and sort after people are going to want to have strong stability at the club coming in. Continually changing the coach, CEO only being on short term, it's not a good look. Not knowing who you will be working under in 2 years time is not something that installs a lot of comfort in people.
Solutions...
1. What can we do about our tarnished reputation and get people back to wanting to work for Carlton again? In 2000 We had David Parkin as head coach, he played under one of the greatest coaches of all time, he came from success and he brought success with him, he was one of the better coaches of the era and someone we really backed in. He was the last coach we had who retired. Under him was Brittain who was seen as a tactical specialist, Kernahan who was seen as one of the greatest leaders of the era and came from an extremely successful background and clubs, Greg Williams who ticks the same boxes, Barry Mitchell who has been long regarded as a good football person, Ross Lyon who has gone on to be a very successful coach and John Worsfold who went on to be a very successful premiership coach with west coast.
We haven't seen a coaching group nearly that good since. It ticked a lot of boxes in terms of diversity (forwards, backs, mids, talls and smalls). People from other clubs, people from successful clubs, people fresh out of the game from good clubs. It's something we haven't been able to do since. A lot of people we have taken are from unsuccessful clubs or from unsuccessful periods.
IMO it's going to take years before we strip ourselves of our poor reputation. Having well renowned people there with good reputations helps. Cook is one of those people. Our current president has no reputation yet, this challenge Voss is receiving now will determine what reputation he gets. We just need to continue proving that we are a coach supporting and coach friendly club and slowly improve our reputation so we become one of the clubs the managers of these individuals recommend working for.
Having better people in charge always helps. I don't like the messiah thing but getting someone like Neil Balme would be an instant fix to our reputation. Good people want to work under him, he has a reputation, he lands at clubs and wins them premierships and this is one of the big reasons why, his reputation allows him to get good people in and he knows what he is doing. I'm not sure we could get someone like this in but this would be a start.
We need to be the best club for a coach to work at in the land. Support them in a way they can have success by having really good people in the footy department, support them to succeeded (give them what they want/need), support them mentally, support them with extra staff if they need them. Do what ever it takes to make people want to work here again.
2 and 3. Recruiting direction. I'm not sure it's great. We picked some players we needed. Hollands, Binns, Lemmy were all types we needed but we came up empty handed on the small forward requirement. A quality and stable coaching group will see us target quick players who can kick, chase, tackle and fit in with the modern game. Will also see us target small forwards. I don't think we have recruited bad players, I think we haven't always recruited the right players.
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Wickzki
Definitely Sam MacLure.
- Oct 1, 2010
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Many would say that after that long line of crooks, failures and those in bed with the AFL that we needed something different.
This is what sayers did wrong
A) Calls for an external review when after 8 years on the board he should know the solutions. The Board needs football people who know who to appoint and what to do
B) Does not go with the recommendation of the coaching commitee and gets rolled by the influence of Kinnersley
C) Appoints Voss who Cook said needs tactical support and then does not appoint a senior tactical assistant.
D) Keeps lloyd as head of football, when he failed during the teague years.
E) issues a five year plan when he and Cook are only there for 3, meaning he is not accountable
F) Fails in the stated aim to make finals.
G) Doesn't force changes to the football department, especially fitness
H) Limits the board challenges by threatening supreme court action, despite the football club underperforming.
I) Appoints Greg Williams with no club football department experience as conduit between the board and the football department
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WC do a review every 2nd year, external reviews alternative years
Lyon didn't want to go through the process, so could never be ratified by the committee.
Also, while the Saints currently sit higher at this point in time Lyon has achieved nothing of note
And, we can only speculate where we would be if Lyon was coach
Yet, absolutely never stated it needed to be "senior" tactical support
If the review found Lloyd was the right person, then Sayers, or more likely Cook would back his retention
Organisations don't base strategy/vision on the retention of staff.
Have we folded as a club? Every club states the aim to make finals, it's ongoing and doesn't have a sunset clause
Every coach last year, bar Power is new. Many people within the fitness department were replaced and or had their responsibilities changed
How does this impact on field output and or a ticket being formed to challenge the board?
Hang on.... "The Board needs football people who know who to appoint and what to do"
You have contradicted yourself
- Jun 4, 2016
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External reviews are part of good operational practice and should be used even in 'good' periods. They aren't some embarrassing bugaboo that only places in shambles need.
There is even more infighting on this board than there is at Carlton.
Clubs have so many people involved with such large networks with connections outside AFL land. Especially Carlton.
I don’t understand people’s desire to tarnish some posters credibility whilst laud others.
jpfalvo could very well be hearing things from people within club land.
I respect everything shared on this board equally, but also take it with an understanding that often information shared from within a club can be shared as an opinion or thoughts of a minority group and doesn’t always turn out to be the final actions taken by the club. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t spoken about, or have legs at some point.
Information I’ve shared in the past has turned out to be correct sometimes and has not eventuated sometimes. But I will alway attempt to share what I know when I’m confident what I’ve seen or been told is correct.
Please try to be nice people. We are all here for the same reason. We all suffer from the same curse. Carlton is more than just a sporting team for us, it defines us. It has already cause us so much pain over the last 25 years, we don’t need to inflict more upon each other. For when the good times finally come, the party down the Blue Mile will continue for months.
They are if the sole aim is to sack the coach.
- Aug 16, 2009
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If it has a predetermined outcome, it isn't really a review.
Les Grossman playaaaa
Team Captain
You classically argue that the operation is a successs but ignore that the patient is dieing. You are articulate and a wonderful advocate who relies on disconecting process from outcomes to justify your position and limiting change. The type of pilot who sees his plane flying into the mountain ahead but feels comfortable because the instruments reads a high enough elevation. The club is sinking due to some poor leadership, it needs change at board level
Michael, you are still making assumptions
I am fine with change at board level, but I would rather see a mindset change
Have never stated, what we are currently experiencing is a success. So unless that patient is likely to die, I will remain patient
No, no I am a big advocate for change. Thoughtful, measured to ensure any change is timed as needed or required
No, you assess both equally, guide it by feel as you can navigate the obstacles, rather than just reaching for a parachute
The club isn't sinking, IMHO, it is struggling to find connections on and off the field.
I am fine with change at board level, but I would rather see a mindset change
- May 25, 2020
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Great post, especially around reputation and stability. My read on the situation (not necessarily my view and certainly not involving any inside information) is that Cook is going to play the long game here by sticking with Voss for at least his initial 3 year term and try to provide him with increased support over the off season via new assistant coaches.
The rationale for this approach in my head is:
(1) It sends the message externally that we will back in our people and honour our contractual commitments. Carlton haven’t done this in recent times and it’s hurt our brand in the market as you’ve outlined. Good people won’t want to come if they feel like they need to be constantly looking over their shoulder during their tenure. I suspect this is part of the reason we end up with guys like Lloyd, Hamill and Clarke rather than more experienced and higher credentialed equivalents.
(2) It sends the message internally to the players that they need to push through the troughs and adversities of football. They’ve seen off a few coaches now and nothing changes. It gives the club the opportunity to really see which players are good cultural fits and which may not be.
Time will tell whether this works but that’s my current read on what might happen.
Wise words. Wise words indeed.
This simply isn't true.
what does that mean? it sounds like a motherhood statement.
Yes it is.
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No, it's not.
Lyon didn't even interview with the Coaching Committee.
Every person, especially those at the pointy end, have the capacity to understand a different approach is needed
You shouldn't need to change people to change situations, but only the brave are capable
Dig a bit deeper, you will get closer to the truth....and I am not ant voss
Deeper or shallower, your statement is not true.
The Coaching Committee did not want Ross, who refused to interview with them. Kinnersly was on the Committee, she didn't overrule them.
Bletch
Premium Platinum
- Dec 8, 2020
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There's a certain amount of misogyny around the blaming of Kinnersly for "missing out" on Lyon.
Really pathetic isn't it
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