Cameron Whites concerning 20/20 Form

[Tom12]

Just having had a look at the stats of the last 15 International 20/20 innings, which is roughly a year's worth of matches and a better indicator of form than an arbitrary number like 4, of a number of Australia's batsman to compare their performances.

In terms of averages and strike rates, Mike Hussey is the stand out over this time period, averaging 39 with a SR of 157, though White's average of 33 at 140 is perfectly fine when compared to Watson (26/153), Warner (25/150) and Dave Hussey (29/124).

Interestingly, all these batsman very clearly play to the tactic described numerous times in this thread, where a slow start turns into an explosive innings if they get past ~10 balls; in all but one innings where these batsman scored under 10 runs, their SR was also below 100.
However, of the 48 individual innings where they scored 10 or more runs, all but two innings have been over 100 SR.

I mention this because, while these batsman all play a similar style and have a similarly high level of performance, Clarke plays it a little differently.
His average over the last 15 innings is 24, with a SR of just under 100. To his credit he rarely makes less than 10 runs an innings, but then only 5 of the 13 innings where he scored over 10 runs have been at more than a run a ball.
Which basically means, once Clarke has managed to stick around for a short while and make it past 10 runs, he's still MORE likely to end up at less than a run a ball, as opposed Australia's top 20/20 players, who are almost guaranteed to pile on the runs very quickly.
Doesn't take a genius to figure out which of these styles is better suited to a 20/20 match.

Comparing White to the world's top batsman, the stated fact that there are 22 players with a higher average than him in 2010 is misleading.
Half of these batsman played 4 or less innings in 2010, making it easy to inflate their averages.
9 of them come from tiny countries like Kenya, Ireland and Canada, and as such only play against other similarly tiny cricketing nations.
And of those left, only Hussey, Dhoni, Jayawardene, Raina and McCullum scored at a quicker rate than White. Based on these stats, I'd have him as our clear second best batsman over the last year, behind only Mike Hussey.

And finally, the suggestion that 4 mediocre innings in a row is particularly worrying for a 20/20 cricketer is ridiculous. Skimming through the innings lists of some of the top big hitting 20/20 batsman in the world... Afridi had a run of 10 games where didn't manage to reach 15 runs. Pollard had a run of 9 games with a highest score of 12. Yuvraj Singh has scored a total of 26 runs in his last 4 innings, all at less than a run a ball. Raina had 5 poor games where he didn't get past 10. Jayawardene has had multiple runs of 4+ poor innings, and is in fact averaging 10 in his last 5 innings. Dhoni had a run of 5 very poor games, including a 9 off 27. Duminy has scored 5 ducks in amongst a number of poor sequences during his career.
Indeed, big-hitting 20/20 players without a poor run of form at some stage during their career are very much the exception... And oddly enough, Pietersen and Mike Hussey are exceptional players.

Summed up: Cam White's international 20/20 performance over the last year has been on par with, if not better than, most of Australia's top batsman.
A run of 4 'bad' games is far from unusual in international Twenty20 cricket, even among the best players in the world.
Michael Clarke made a very good decision in giving up Twenty20.
And South of the Yarra has an oddly poor understanding of Twenty20 cricket.

This guy said it.
Concerning as it may be in South of the Yarra's opinion, it's far from unusual and isn't worth arguing given the scheme of t20 cricket..

 

[dan warna]

Please if you want a start a Michael Clarke thread go for it. This thread is about Whites form or severe lack of it.

your opening posts compare white to clarke claiming if clarke had a form slump it would be all over the press.

Just pointing out that clarke's form is justifiably criticised by the media while white has NOT accrued justifiable criticism.

Hence the proposition of your thread is rejected, I'm responding to your thread issues, so again your criticism of my response is also rejected

and quoting:

This is hardly the form of a great 20/20 cricketer and he is lucky to be in the team let alone be Captain. If this was Ponting or Clarke it would be all over the Victorian papers but they are very good at hiding form slumps in Victorians.

While clarke hasn't set the world on fire he has been better than White over the past 4 games yet all the spotlight is on Clarke. Strange.

you by your thread posts have invited a comparison between clarke and white. Since punter has already withdrawn from T20 games, i haven't bothered discussing his form.

by pointing out the failure of your proposition, the inadequacy of your sample size, and comparisons with comparable level games, your whole proposition is basically rubbish

 

[Damon_3388]

I dont really think averages are that important in T20. I think better indicators are balls per boundary and strike rate.

T20 Careers (International numbers in parentheses)

Daniel Harris
Batting Average - 30.96
Batting Strike Rate - 144.40
Balls Per Boundary - 4.62
IPL - Passed in at US$20,000
Australian T20 Team - 0 games (25 T20 games total)

Cameron White
Batting Average - 32.13 (34.60)
Batting Strike Rate - 137.06 (142.58)
Balls Per Boundary - 6.47 (6.17)
IPL - Deccan pays US$1.1 Million
Australian T20 Team - 24 Games, Captaincy (87 T20 games total)

Discuss.

 

[South of the Yarra]

your opening posts compare white to clarke claiming if clarke had a form slump it would be all over the press.

Just pointing out that clarke's form is justifiably criticised by the media while white has NOT accrued justifiable criticism.

Hence the proposition of your thread is rejected, I'm responding to your thread issues, so again your criticism of my response is also rejected

and quoting:

This is hardly the form of a great 20/20 cricketer and he is lucky to be in the team let alone be Captain. If this was Ponting or Clarke it would be all over the Victorian papers but they are very good at hiding form slumps in Victorians.

While clarke hasn't set the world on fire he has been better than White over the past 4 games yet all the spotlight is on Clarke. Strange.

you by your thread posts have invited a comparison between clarke and white. Since punter has already withdrawn from T20 games, i haven't bothered discussing his form.

by pointing out the failure of your proposition, the inadequacy of your sample size, and comparisons with comparable level games, your whole proposition is basically rubbish

Actually the thread invites a look at Cameron Whites form slump and why he is exempt from criticism from the Victorian media. That having being said your comparative claims of rejection have been subjectively rebuffed.

 

[Tazwegian]

Just having had a look at the stats of the last 15 International 20/20 innings, which is roughly a year's worth of matches and a better indicator of form than an arbitrary number like 4, of a number of Australia's batsman to compare their performances.

In terms of averages and strike rates, Mike Hussey is the stand out over this time period, averaging 39 with a SR of 157, though White's average of 33 at 140 is perfectly fine when compared to Watson (26/153), Warner (25/150) and Dave Hussey (29/124).

Interestingly, all these batsman very clearly play to the tactic described numerous times in this thread, where a slow start turns into an explosive innings if they get past ~10 balls; in all but one innings where these batsman scored under 10 runs, their SR was also below 100.
However, of the 48 individual innings where they scored 10 or more runs, all but two innings have been over 100 SR.

I mention this because, while these batsman all play a similar style and have a similarly high level of performance, Clarke plays it a little differently.
His average over the last 15 innings is 24, with a SR of just under 100. To his credit he rarely makes less than 10 runs an innings, but then only 5 of the 13 innings where he scored over 10 runs have been at more than a run a ball.
Which basically means, once Clarke has managed to stick around for a short while and make it past 10 runs, he's still MORE likely to end up at less than a run a ball, as opposed Australia's top 20/20 players, who are almost guaranteed to pile on the runs very quickly.
Doesn't take a genius to figure out which of these styles is better suited to a 20/20 match.

Comparing White to the world's top batsman, the stated fact that there are 22 players with a higher average than him in 2010 is misleading.
Half of these batsman played 4 or less innings in 2010, making it easy to inflate their averages.
9 of them come from tiny countries like Kenya, Ireland and Canada, and as such only play against other similarly tiny cricketing nations.
And of those left, only Hussey, Dhoni, Jayawardene, Raina and McCullum scored at a quicker rate than White. Based on these stats, I'd have him as our clear second best batsman over the last year, behind only Mike Hussey.

And finally, the suggestion that 4 mediocre innings in a row is particularly worrying for a 20/20 cricketer is ridiculous. Skimming through the innings lists of some of the top big hitting 20/20 batsman in the world... Afridi had a run of 10 games where didn't manage to reach 15 runs. Pollard had a run of 9 games with a highest score of 12. Yuvraj Singh has scored a total of 26 runs in his last 4 innings, all at less than a run a ball. Raina had 5 poor games where he didn't get past 10. Jayawardene has had multiple runs of 4+ poor innings, and is in fact averaging 10 in his last 5 innings. Dhoni had a run of 5 very poor games, including a 9 off 27. Duminy has scored 5 ducks in amongst a number of poor sequences during his career.
Indeed, big-hitting 20/20 players without a poor run of form at some stage during their career are very much the exception... And oddly enough, Pietersen and Mike Hussey are exceptional players.

Summed up: Cam White's international 20/20 performance over the last year has been on par with, if not better than, most of Australia's top batsman.
A run of 4 'bad' games is far from unusual in international Twenty20 cricket, even among the best players in the world.
Michael Clarke made a very good decision in giving up Twenty20.
And South of the Yarra has an oddly poor understanding of Twenty20 cricket.

This guy wins.

 

[dan warna]

Actually the thread invites a look at Cameron Whites form slump and why he is exempt from criticism from the Victorian media. That having being said your comparative claims of rejection have been subjectively rebuffed.

You clearly can't read your own posts

you asked why white hasn't be criticised because of your claim he is in a form slump.

clearly the level of slump you draw attention to is no where near the slump clarke has been.

T20 clarke has averaged 10 less than white at 3/4 of white SR, this is replicated in his domestic form, hence there is no evidence that clarke has more to give.

your sample size of 4 is rubbish.

your comparison to ODI's is rejected as white scores faster at a good ODI average batting lower in the order.

Mahama also adds a massive amount of evidence dismantling your argument.

All you have is a 4 game average which is clearly not an indicative sample size.

By comparison clarke has his whole career T20 average and about 12 months of test cricket plus his entire career batting at 4 being 15 test matches to draw as a sample and comparison.

you fail in your argument.

summation: Clarke is a solid 50 over player, clarke is a solid test player LOW in the order, Clarke is a rubbish player at 4 and a rubbish player in T20.

White hasn't had a reasonable sample at test cricket having batted at 8, and averaged 30 (better than smith's bowling and batting), he's a solid 50 over player coming in late in the order and striking at high rate, and he's in the top echelon in australia of T20 players.

That is what the evidence says.

 

[apollo_creed]

I picked this as it is a 4 game slump. Any other player who was not batting at even time in 20/20 would be under the pump after doing this. Michael Clarke has been under the pump 20/20 wise and his last 4 innings have been
16 off 19
30 off 19 (176.47)
5 off 6
27 off 27

While clarke hasn't set the world on fire he has been better than White over the past 4 games yet all the spotlight is on Clarke. Strange.

So you picked a number because it would suit your argument?



I'm impressed.

 

[apollo_creed]

When you compare it to the vitriol Clarke was getting after 4 Test matches of poor form, it is quite amusing. I don't think it's anything to panic about, nor did I think Clarke's was anything to panic about. Batsmen go through rough form slumps, it happens.

No, that's not true.

The criticism Clarke got was for extended poor form and a proven, consistent inability to score at an acceptable rate.

His criticism had nothing to do with four lower scores in a row.

 

[The Thinker]

Mahama can I be in your debating team, man you just wiped the floor and handed the mop to south of yarra to rinse clean, then had him polish your shoes with that post

My old mate SOTY has taken you all to the cleaners. He is outnumbered, has stood alone and yet he has still stood up to the pack. Some of the return posts by some posters should be carded such is there lack of taste and class.
No- Cameron White should not be dropped
No- Cameron White is not in a form slump
Yes- Cameron White is one of the best T20 cricketers in the world
Yes- SOTY has stuck to his guns and taken most of you posters apart to the stage where half of you are displaying anger in response to him. 'There are two sides out there today and only one of them is playing cricket.'

 

[apollo_creed]

since clarke's last century.in march, against NZ, he's had 28, 63, 47, 12, 3, 77, 4, 14, 3, 9, 2, 80, 4, 20, 20, 13, 4, 41.

he averages 20 over 15 matches batting at 4, and he averages 42.5 when overseas as opposed to 52 when batting at home.

if you are using michael clarke as a gauge for white, then by and large there are far more weaknesses in clarke's game and temperament than whites.

basically he's a gun when batting at home, at 5 or 6.

he's a ordinary when batting overseas, and he's carried at 4.

talk about a niche player.

white first game as captain, carrying tait and lee, he did pretty well.

How can one not be dropped over such a long period of terrible, terrible form?

There's no excuse not to drop him if fairness is a demanded trait of the Australian selectors.

 

[apollo_creed]

For those wanting a bigger sample. Whites last 11 innings have been:
6
8
7

Yep, they're failures but it's all about context.

If for example he came in with three overs to go on either of those occasions then it's harsh to call any of those innings failures and his s/r was 150%.

17
30
43

Again, it's all about CONTEXT. How many balls for the 17, when did he come in? Coming in at 2/120 after 14 overs and scoring a quick 17 is not a failure in 20/20 cricket. So without explaining every situation you're not in any position to call any innings a failure. It is not like test cricket where what you see is generally very easy to judge.

0 not out
85 not out
5 not out

He's obviously coming in too late in some cases.

That is 6 total failures in his last 11 innings. Two very low not outs. Two average scores and one good score. This averages to around 27 only with some not outs boosting it falsely. Hardly the stuff of a champion. This goes back to May 2nd 2010.

How are not outs boosting anything falsely?
Your average is your average.

27 is considered a very good 20/20 average. And he's supposedly in bad form?

Do you understand the difference between two innings, unlimited overs cricket and the 20 over stuff?

And why mention the two low not outs and then two sentences later mention how some not outs are boosting his score falsely? How could two not outs with a combined score of 5 runs boost his average falsely? Those five runs are crucial man!

And the fact that you think 30 and 43 are average scores in 20/20 cricket just about says it all and tells me (and others who are being fair) all we need to know about you and your obviously flawed opinion. It stinks mate. There's no other way of putting it because you've proven (without a shadow of a doubt) that you don't understand 20/20 cricket, or 'form'.

 

[apollo_creed]

T20 Careers

Daniel Harris
Batting Average - 30.96
Batting Strike Rate - 144.40
Balls Per Boundary - 4.62
IPL - Passed in at US$20,000
Australian T20 Team - 0 Games

Cameron White
Batting Average - 32.13
Batting Strike Rate - 137.06
Balls Per Boundary - 6.47
IPL - Deccan pays US$1.1 Million
Australian T20 Team - 24 Games, Captaincy

Discuss.

Big, big difference that you have wrongly ommited.

One opens - the first 6 overs sees the field up. Very easy to hit boundaries.
One doesn't open and comes in with the field back - harder to score quickly, harder to get boundaries.

Can't ignore that mate.

 

[Cousin Jed]

ptrg you've pretty much offered nothing except abuse, random pictures, laughing and a shrieking demand that the thread be closed.

We get it, you disagree with the OP.

Unless you have something constructive to say, then stay out.

 

[Fazualdo]

Thats the nature of 20 20 cricket you are going to have your ups and downs a lot of players would have scores like that its hard to be consistent in that form of the game. Especially when you bat in the middle order

If anything this thread seems to highlight the fact that White comes in too late in an innings, I don't watch the Vics much unless they're playing the Redbacks, but he is highly rated and surely is capable of coming in higher (3 or 4)?

 

[Fazualdo]

Just having had a look at the stats of the last 15 International 20/20 innings, which is roughly a year's worth of matches and a better indicator of form than an arbitrary number like 4, of a number of Australia's batsman to compare their performances.

In terms of averages and strike rates, Mike Hussey is the stand out over this time period, averaging 39 with a SR of 157, though White's average of 33 at 140 is perfectly fine when compared to Watson (26/153), Warner (25/150) and Dave Hussey (29/124).

Interestingly, all these batsman very clearly play to the tactic described numerous times in this thread, where a slow start turns into an explosive innings if they get past ~10 balls; in all but one innings where these batsman scored under 10 runs, their SR was also below 100.
However, of the 48 individual innings where they scored 10 or more runs, all but two innings have been over 100 SR.

I mention this because, while these batsman all play a similar style and have a similarly high level of performance, Clarke plays it a little differently.
His average over the last 15 innings is 24, with a SR of just under 100. To his credit he rarely makes less than 10 runs an innings, but then only 5 of the 13 innings where he scored over 10 runs have been at more than a run a ball.
Which basically means, once Clarke has managed to stick around for a short while and make it past 10 runs, he's still MORE likely to end up at less than a run a ball, as opposed Australia's top 20/20 players, who are almost guaranteed to pile on the runs very quickly.
Doesn't take a genius to figure out which of these styles is better suited to a 20/20 match.

Comparing White to the world's top batsman, the stated fact that there are 22 players with a higher average than him in 2010 is misleading.
Half of these batsman played 4 or less innings in 2010, making it easy to inflate their averages.
9 of them come from tiny countries like Kenya, Ireland and Canada, and as such only play against other similarly tiny cricketing nations.
And of those left, only M Hussey, Dhoni, Jayawardene, Raina and McCullum scored at a quicker rate than White. Based on these stats, I'd have him as our clear second best batsman over the last year, behind only Mike Hussey.

And finally, the suggestion that 4 mediocre innings in a row is particularly worrying for a 20/20 cricketer is ridiculous. Skimming through the innings lists of some of the top big hitting 20/20 batsman in the world... Afridi had a run of 10 games where didn't manage to reach 15 runs. Pollard had a run of 9 games with a highest score of 12. Yuvraj Singh has scored a total of 26 runs in his last 4 innings, all at less than a run a ball. Raina had 5 poor games where he didn't get past 10. Jayawardene has had multiple runs of 4+ poor innings, and is in fact averaging 10 in his last 5 innings. Dhoni had a run of 5 very poor games, including a 9 off 27. Duminy has scored 5 ducks in amongst a number of poor sequences during his career.
Indeed, big-hitting 20/20 players without a poor run of form at some stage during their career are very much the exception... And oddly enough, Pietersen and Mike Hussey are exceptional players.

Summed up: Cam White's international 20/20 performance over the last year has been on par with, if not better than, most of Australia's top batsman.
A run of 4 'bad' games is far from unusual in international Twenty20 cricket, even among the best players in the world.
Michael Clarke made a very good decision in giving up Twenty20.
And South of the Yarra has an oddly poor understanding of Twenty20 cricket.

Sounds like the selectors have got the wrong Hussey... or need a 2nd dose!! Why wasn't Mike chosen or is he being rested or retired like Clarke?

Great post by the way.

 

[South of the Yarra]

The Cameron White form slump continues with a 0 when needed. A really poor two games by the alleged Captain. He has come in when Australia is in a good position twice and has failed miserably. His last 5 innings have now been 0,6,8,7 and 17 at an average of 7.6. His last 5 strike rates have been 0,66,80,87 and 130. Only one of those at over a run a ball. I guess tonight reinforced that he is in a form slump and has been worked out by the opposition. The worst part is that he has come in under no pressure.

 

[legend166]

You just can't believe your luck can you?

 

[spookism]

So who will be Australia's 5th 20/20 Captain?

 

[krisholio14]

Well well well.

 

[ptrg]

ptrg you've pretty much offered nothing except abuse, random pictures, laughing and a shrieking demand that the thread be closed.

We get it, you disagree with the OP.

Unless you have something constructive to say, then stay out.

Yes, I do, along with the vast majority on here.

Ok, so when I put up stats and logical arguments, the All Mighty Mod deems them "not constructive", yet someone continually cherry picks stat after stat, trying to cling on to any thread of life that his argument, and this thread have, counts as "constructive"....?

Well, I don't know about you but when I see Dohni averaging 26.5 and Sehwag at 24, I figure white is doin something right.. Oh, not to mention that his 85 you pointed out is up there with the highest international t20 scores, especially considering he was not out at the end of it..

Cannot believe you made the mistake of posting these extended scores (after initially cherry picking his last four)..

strange how my post was deleted, pointing out the fact that South of the Yarra deliberately chose 11 innings and not 12, as in that 12th innings, he scored 64 off 27 not out!

Still strange as to why it was deleted...

What makes even less sense is that you want to replace White, who averages 34.60 (or lately 27), has made 3 50's all at a strike rate of 142.58;
for Michael Clarke, who averages a whopping 21.22, striking at JUST over 100, with just the one solitary 50 from 10 more games (or 6 more innings - I'm not counting facing zero balls as an innings)?!

EDIT:

Here's their statistics side by side:

............................M In NO Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Ct St
Cameron White T20 24 23 8 519 85 34.60 142.58 0 3 12 0

Michael Clarke T20 34 28 5 488 67 21.22 103.17 0 1 13 0

 

[ptrg]

Pshhhhh as if them side by side career stats count as "constructive"...

edit: this was meant to be part of last post.

 

[rose jam]

With the pitch really slow wtf is White doing bowling pace at the start. If ppl reckon he should be in the test side to captain then go and watch this joke of a captaincy performance he's putting on.

 

[eddiesmith]

With the pitch really slow wtf is White doing bowling pace at the start. If ppl reckon he should be in the test side to captain then go and watch this joke of a captaincy performance he's putting on.

A couple of very good reasons but logic is not welcome in this thread

 

[rose jam]

A couple of very good reasons but logic is not welcome in this thread

and I forgot, does he have any idea what to do with the batting order. Really no giving Paine a bat in the 1st match was shown to be ridiculous after Paine's clean hitting tonight, and putting O'Keefe and a few others ahead of Johnson? I dunno has this guy actually watched a cricketer outside of Victoria?

 

[The OBSTacle]

Did you see that catch? He's worth 20 runs in the field.