Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[WWSD]

Day was very good, stood out. They need to hit the draft.

Ironic that he was a first round pick. Day is one of the best kicks of the footy from the 2019 draft.

I do think the time has come for Hawthorn to hit the draft.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Puopolo. -19 metres gained.

What is it he provides that nobody else can again?

 

[Cursed Cat]

Blueprint would be pretty clear for a usually ruthless Hawthorn front office; write this season off, give the old champs the golden handshake, prune judiciously and build around a core of mature professionals and promising players.

There is still a solid enough midfield core to work with in Shiels, Worpel, O'Meara, Mitchell and Smith. Those 5 are enough to keep a team competitive, when they're at their best. But they do need support and an injection of energy.

Where is Mitchell Lewis at? He played reasonably well against my mob last year and looked to be building as a tall forward; I see that he's only played the 2 games this year; injured? I thought he looked a more promising prospect than Tim O'Brien at any rate.

Sicily holds down the defense and has years ahead of him, but he needs serious support going forward too, Frawley is solid enough but closer to the end of his career than the beginning.

It looks as though Patton is going to go the way of Vickery, a trade gamble that doesn't pay off. Cats fans have seen plenty of that in recent years.
Scully is cooked.

A club's list always looks crap after a loss, but even if Hawthorn were to drop this season they still have enough good players to keep them competitive provided the leadership is good and they have some consistent support players emerge. Some quality youth wouldn't hurt either but I'm not sure they have the selections to make it happen.

I sense a line-in-the-sand moment imminent.

 

[ep2018]

They'll beat us this year like the pricks always do but I think its time to bottom out and get some good young talent into the side with some good draft picks.

 

[ChappyUK]

Can we update the title to 'Can Hawthorn succeed when the AFL and the footy world is against them.'

This is what I got out of Ckarko's press conference.

 

[master bate]

I doubt it. Clarkson has risen twice - 2008 and 2013. I wouldn’t put it past him to do it again. Whether they need to change the recruiting approach is another question imo. He can clearly motivate and coach a side.

People talk about comparisons with Sheedy but he built a great side in the mid 80s, pinched another flag in the early 90s with a very talented young side, and built another great side in the early 2000s. Between those years there was talk he was past it and he came back and won flags. Clarkson is obviously a highly adept coach at his core and if you look at history of coaching, there’s nothing to say he’s necessarily past it.

As for continually playing “favourites“ that others think are past it and can’t see the value of, you couldn’t get more Sheedy lol. Now he’s even weighing in to get rules changed etc. There’s some genuine similarities.

How did Sheedy and the Bombers build the 2000 list off the back of the 93 baby bombers?

Fletcher, Hird, Wallis, Mercuri, Misiti, Long were the holdovers. Lloyd in a deal with Freo. Lucas at the top of the draft.

Obviously things are different now but it's interesting to learn how a long serving coach rebuilds a team because it doesn't really happen all that often. How did Sheeds come up with the 93 team?

The thing I find most amazing about Clarkson is they build a core of a dynasty through the draft - Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Buddy, Roughy, Birchall, Cyril and Ellis - that group of talent sets you up for a decade. And yeah it's only one flag in 2008 and then they need reinforcements but mostly the same guys were the base. And for the second time around 3 crucial midfield pieces - Hill, Smith and Shiels are in the top 34 picks and play early and often. Breust was a rookie pick but another who got a lot of opportunity reasonably early.

Yet the thing Clarko seems to focus on now is that they retooled for 2013-2015 when they added Gibson, Burgoyne, Gunston, Lake, Hale etc to help them win the 3 peat and not the amazing core of the side that was drafted, developed and played together for years. Burgoyne is the type of rare player who gets traded once a decade at most. Gunston as a buy cheap raw talent is kind of the same. And even if you reproduce something similar with O'Meara and Mitchell if the rest of the side isn't ready you don't get the same results.

 

[stfan]

That is a lot of players with most not having much left in them.

9​	Burgoyne, Shaun	381​	37yr 8mth	21 Oct 1982	186cm​	89kg​	Port Adelaide	Defender
28​	Puopolo, Paul	194​	32yr 7mth	2 Dec 1987	173cm​	78kg​	Norwood	Forward
31​	Henderson, Ricky	158​	31yr 9mth	11 Sep 1988	188cm​	89kg​	Trentham	Midfield
12​	Frawley, James	231​	31yr 9mth	20 Sep 1988	193cm​	96kg​	Nth Ballarat	Defender
16​	Smith, Isaac	206​	31yr 6mth	30 Dec 1988	188cm​	83kg​	North Ballarat	Midfield
24​	Stratton, Benjamin	194​	31yr 4mth	1 Mar 1989	189cm​	88kg​	East Perth	Defender
7​	McEvoy, Ben	212​	30yr 11mth	11 Jul 1989	200cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Ruck
47​	Brooksby, Keegan R	14​	30yr 2mth	27 Apr 1990	197cm​	105kg​	South Adelaide	Ruck
22​	Breust, Luke	211​	29yr 7mth	11 Nov 1990	184cm​	84kg​	Temora	Forward
18​	Ceglar, Jonathon	82​	29yr 4mth	14 Feb 1991	204cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Forward Ruck
26​	Shiels, Liam	211​	29yr 2mth	29 Apr 1991	183cm​	84kg​	Boronia	Midfield
21​	Scully, Tom	179​	29yr 1mth	15 May 1991	181cm​	80kg​	Dandenong Stingrays	Midfield
19​	Gunston, Jack	198​	28yr 8mth	16 Oct 1991	193cm​	87kg​	Sandringham	Forward
25​	Patton, Jonathon	93​	27yr 1mth	20 May 1993	198cm​	102kg​	Eastern Ranges	Forward Ruck

 

[Old Stuckup]

That is a lot of players with most not having much let in them.

9​	Burgoyne, Shaun	381​	37yr 8mth	21 Oct 1982	186cm​	89kg​	Port Adelaide	Defender
28​	Puopolo, Paul	194​	32yr 7mth	2 Dec 1987	173cm​	78kg​	Norwood	Forward
31​	Henderson, Ricky	158​	31yr 9mth	11 Sep 1988	188cm​	89kg​	Trentham	Midfield
12​	Frawley, James	231​	31yr 9mth	20 Sep 1988	193cm​	96kg​	Nth Ballarat	Defender
16​	Smith, Isaac	206​	31yr 6mth	30 Dec 1988	188cm​	83kg​	North Ballarat	Midfield
24​	Stratton, Benjamin	194​	31yr 4mth	1 Mar 1989	189cm​	88kg​	East Perth	Defender
7​	McEvoy, Ben	212​	30yr 11mth	11 Jul 1989	200cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Ruck
47​	Brooksby, Keegan R	14​	30yr 2mth	27 Apr 1990	197cm​	105kg​	South Adelaide	Ruck
22​	Breust, Luke	211​	29yr 7mth	11 Nov 1990	184cm​	84kg​	Temora	Forward
18​	Ceglar, Jonathon	82​	29yr 4mth	14 Feb 1991	204cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Forward Ruck
26​	Shiels, Liam	211​	29yr 2mth	29 Apr 1991	183cm​	84kg​	Boronia	Midfield
21​	Scully, Tom	179​	29yr 1mth	15 May 1991	181cm​	80kg​	Dandenong Stingrays	Midfield
19​	Gunston, Jack	198​	28yr 8mth	16 Oct 1991	193cm​	87kg​	Sandringham	Forward
25​	Patton, Jonathon	93​	27yr 1mth	20 May 1993	198cm​	102kg​	Eastern Ranges	Forward Ruck

It won’t happen but of that lot I’d probably only have Gunston, Breust, Shiels, Smith and McEvoy in the side next week.

 

[PorcelainBus]

No

 

[SA HAWK]

That is a lot of players with most not having much left in them.

9​	Burgoyne, Shaun	381​	37yr 8mth	21 Oct 1982	186cm​	89kg​	Port Adelaide	Defender
28​	Puopolo, Paul	194​	32yr 7mth	2 Dec 1987	173cm​	78kg​	Norwood	Forward
31​	Henderson, Ricky	158​	31yr 9mth	11 Sep 1988	188cm​	89kg​	Trentham	Midfield
12​	Frawley, James	231​	31yr 9mth	20 Sep 1988	193cm​	96kg​	Nth Ballarat	Defender
16​	Smith, Isaac	206​	31yr 6mth	30 Dec 1988	188cm​	83kg​	North Ballarat	Midfield
24​	Stratton, Benjamin	194​	31yr 4mth	1 Mar 1989	189cm​	88kg​	East Perth	Defender
7​	McEvoy, Ben	212​	30yr 11mth	11 Jul 1989	200cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Ruck
47​	Brooksby, Keegan R	14​	30yr 2mth	27 Apr 1990	197cm​	105kg​	South Adelaide	Ruck
22​	Breust, Luke	211​	29yr 7mth	11 Nov 1990	184cm​	84kg​	Temora	Forward
18​	Ceglar, Jonathon	82​	29yr 4mth	14 Feb 1991	204cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Forward Ruck
26​	Shiels, Liam	211​	29yr 2mth	29 Apr 1991	183cm​	84kg​	Boronia	Midfield
21​	Scully, Tom	179​	29yr 1mth	15 May 1991	181cm​	80kg​	Dandenong Stingrays	Midfield
19​	Gunston, Jack	198​	28yr 8mth	16 Oct 1991	193cm​	87kg​	Sandringham	Forward
25​	Patton, Jonathon	93​	27yr 1mth	20 May 1993	198cm​	102kg​	Eastern Ranges	Forward Ruck

The lack of replacements is even more concerning.

Crows style rebuild coming up in the next few years.

 

[Scotland]

Back in the day they traded players of value for early picks. Hay, Thompson, Croad etc. But that age bracket is the guys they just traded in. Breust and Gunston have been great, but 29/30 year olds don't command much of a premium. Waste of time trading Breust for pick 28 or something unless you could create cap space to buy a free agent who is better and younger. Mitchell is the only one who would get more going out than he cost coming in - and why on Earth would they do that?

Maybe they'll just follow North's path of rolling the dice with an old team with a limited ceiling for a couple of years then just letting a bunch of older players go and starting again. North's final side of 2016 had an average age of nearly 28 with 3,400+ games played. Comparable to Hawthorn last week. 9 of that North 2 are gone and they got basically nothing in return.

 

[ChappyUK]

The lack of replacements is even more concerning.

Crows style rebuild coming up in the next few years.

Will Day will replace all those players

 

[SA HAWK]

Will Day will replace all those players

Send in the clones

 

[WWSD]

That is a lot of players with most not having much left in them.

9​	Burgoyne, Shaun	381​	37yr 8mth	21 Oct 1982	186cm​	89kg​	Port Adelaide	Defender
28​	Puopolo, Paul	194​	32yr 7mth	2 Dec 1987	173cm​	78kg​	Norwood	Forward
31​	Henderson, Ricky	158​	31yr 9mth	11 Sep 1988	188cm​	89kg​	Trentham	Midfield
12​	Frawley, James	231​	31yr 9mth	20 Sep 1988	193cm​	96kg​	Nth Ballarat	Defender
16​	Smith, Isaac	206​	31yr 6mth	30 Dec 1988	188cm​	83kg​	North Ballarat	Midfield
24​	Stratton, Benjamin	194​	31yr 4mth	1 Mar 1989	189cm​	88kg​	East Perth	Defender
7​	McEvoy, Ben	212​	30yr 11mth	11 Jul 1989	200cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Ruck
47​	Brooksby, Keegan R	14​	30yr 2mth	27 Apr 1990	197cm​	105kg​	South Adelaide	Ruck
22​	Breust, Luke	211​	29yr 7mth	11 Nov 1990	184cm​	84kg​	Temora	Forward
18​	Ceglar, Jonathon	82​	29yr 4mth	14 Feb 1991	204cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Forward Ruck
26​	Shiels, Liam	211​	29yr 2mth	29 Apr 1991	183cm​	84kg​	Boronia	Midfield
21​	Scully, Tom	179​	29yr 1mth	15 May 1991	181cm​	80kg​	Dandenong Stingrays	Midfield
19​	Gunston, Jack	198​	28yr 8mth	16 Oct 1991	193cm​	87kg​	Sandringham	Forward
25​	Patton, Jonathon	93​	27yr 1mth	20 May 1993	198cm​	102kg​	Eastern Ranges	Forward Ruck

Plenty of cap space coming right up! $$$

 

[Red Bull]

Plenty of cap space coming right up! $$$

Playing home games in Launceston hasn’t really proven very appealing to Lynch Whitfield Sheil Coniglio etc etc no matter the offer.
Joining a club heading south with a bullet won’t help change that trend.
Clarkson might have no choice other than to park his ego and head back to the draft ...

 

[ChappyUK]

Plenty of cap space coming right up! $$$

You've had cap space since Buddy left. You just haven't been able to spend it.

 

[Boxhead_31]

That is a lot of players with most not having much left in them.

9​	Burgoyne, Shaun	381​	37yr 8mth	21 Oct 1982	186cm​	89kg​	Port Adelaide	Defender
28​	Puopolo, Paul	194​	32yr 7mth	2 Dec 1987	173cm​	78kg​	Norwood	Forward
31​	Henderson, Ricky	158​	31yr 9mth	11 Sep 1988	188cm​	89kg​	Trentham	Midfield
12​	Frawley, James	231​	31yr 9mth	20 Sep 1988	193cm​	96kg​	Nth Ballarat	Defender
16​	Smith, Isaac	206​	31yr 6mth	30 Dec 1988	188cm​	83kg​	North Ballarat	Midfield
24​	Stratton, Benjamin	194​	31yr 4mth	1 Mar 1989	189cm​	88kg​	East Perth	Defender
7​	McEvoy, Ben	212​	30yr 11mth	11 Jul 1989	200cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Ruck
47​	Brooksby, Keegan R	14​	30yr 2mth	27 Apr 1990	197cm​	105kg​	South Adelaide	Ruck
22​	Breust, Luke	211​	29yr 7mth	11 Nov 1990	184cm​	84kg​	Temora	Forward
18​	Ceglar, Jonathon	82​	29yr 4mth	14 Feb 1991	204cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Forward Ruck
26​	Shiels, Liam	211​	29yr 2mth	29 Apr 1991	183cm​	84kg​	Boronia	Midfield
21​	Scully, Tom	179​	29yr 1mth	15 May 1991	181cm​	80kg​	Dandenong Stingrays	Midfield
19​	Gunston, Jack	198​	28yr 8mth	16 Oct 1991	193cm​	87kg​	Sandringham	Forward
25​	Patton, Jonathon	93​	27yr 1mth	20 May 1993	198cm​	102kg​	Eastern Ranges	Forward Ruck

Concerning lack of youth

 

[Boristown]

Will Day will replace all those players

Oh god, don't encourage them.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

How did Sheedy and the Bombers build the 2000 list off the back of the 93 baby bombers?

Fletcher, Hird, Wallis, Mercuri, Misiti, Long were the holdovers. Lloyd in a deal with Freo. Lucas at the top of the draft.

Obviously things are different now but it's interesting to learn how a long serving coach rebuilds a team because it doesn't really happen all that often. How did Sheeds come up with the 93 team?

The thing I find most amazing about Clarkson is they build a core of a dynasty through the draft - Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Buddy, Roughy, Birchall, Cyril and Ellis - that group of talent sets you up for a decade. And yeah it's only one flag in 2008 and then they need reinforcements but mostly the same guys were the base. And for the second time around 3 crucial midfield pieces - Hill, Smith and Shiels are in the top 34 picks and play early and often. Breust was a rookie pick but another who got a lot of opportunity reasonably early.

Yet the thing Clarko seems to focus on now is that they retooled for 2013-2015 when they added Gibson, Burgoyne, Gunston, Lake, Hale etc to help them win the 3 peat and not the amazing core of the side that was drafted, developed and played together for years. Burgoyne is the type of rare player who gets traded once a decade at most. Gunston as a buy cheap raw talent is kind of the same. And even if you reproduce something similar with O'Meara and Mitchell if the rest of the side isn't ready you don't get the same results.

They lucked out to some extent with a few trades which they got great returns on. it was also a time when you had priority picks so it was much easier to rebuild, not to mention less sides so better picks. To find those players they used probably over ten years worth of top picks in today’s environment. I can understand why teams don’t want to bottom out nowadays. You stuff up one early pick and all of a sudden you walk away from the draft in a worse hand then the top sides. I think the thing that might hurt them is the two for one trades.

 

[Slysh]

Will Day is honestly their best recruit of the last 5 years by an absolute mile. Far better value at pick 11 than what Hawthorn gave up for O'Meara.

Now is the time for them to start drafting, but next year will be as compromised and it gets.

Don't they have an academy prospect? They will probably have to bid on him with their first pick this year.

Would be pretty shocked if we did, seems to be an end of first round selection at best.

 

[Joao]

That is a lot of players with most not having much left in them.

9​	Burgoyne, Shaun	381​	37yr 8mth	21 Oct 1982	186cm​	89kg​	Port Adelaide	Defender
28​	Puopolo, Paul	194​	32yr 7mth	2 Dec 1987	173cm​	78kg​	Norwood	Forward
31​	Henderson, Ricky	158​	31yr 9mth	11 Sep 1988	188cm​	89kg​	Trentham	Midfield
12​	Frawley, James	231​	31yr 9mth	20 Sep 1988	193cm​	96kg​	Nth Ballarat	Defender
16​	Smith, Isaac	206​	31yr 6mth	30 Dec 1988	188cm​	83kg​	North Ballarat	Midfield
24​	Stratton, Benjamin	194​	31yr 4mth	1 Mar 1989	189cm​	88kg​	East Perth	Defender
7​	McEvoy, Ben	212​	30yr 11mth	11 Jul 1989	200cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Ruck
47​	Brooksby, Keegan R	14​	30yr 2mth	27 Apr 1990	197cm​	105kg​	South Adelaide	Ruck
22​	Breust, Luke	211​	29yr 7mth	11 Nov 1990	184cm​	84kg​	Temora	Forward
18​	Ceglar, Jonathon	82​	29yr 4mth	14 Feb 1991	204cm​	102kg​	Murray Bushrangers	Forward Ruck
26​	Shiels, Liam	211​	29yr 2mth	29 Apr 1991	183cm​	84kg​	Boronia	Midfield
21​	Scully, Tom	179​	29yr 1mth	15 May 1991	181cm​	80kg​	Dandenong Stingrays	Midfield
19​	Gunston, Jack	198​	28yr 8mth	16 Oct 1991	193cm​	87kg​	Sandringham	Forward
25​	Patton, Jonathon	93​	27yr 1mth	20 May 1993	198cm​	102kg​	Eastern Ranges	Forward Ruck

TBF, Hawthorn would be better off right now if some of those blokes retired so that had to play someone else.

 

[boncer34]

Hawks fans why did Clarko choose Ceglar over Pittonet?

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Hawks fans why did Clarko choose Ceglar over Pittonet?

Pittonet had concrete hands. Couldn't mark to save his life. Cellar has become concrete hands, but until this year could take a mark. More to brickwork than first hands at the bounce, but cellar is a turd in all aspects this year

 

[La Dispute]

Hawks fans why did Clarko choose Ceglar over Pittonet?

Was thinking this myself yesterday. Doesn’t win many taps, doesn’t do a whole heap around the ground and has no presence at all around a stoppage. Seems like another who is holding the squad back through his ineptitude, and another example of a player who’s been gifted games by Clarko by virtue of being part of the squad in the long term.

If only they had three McEvoy‘s: one rucking, one to intercept down back and one offering a target up forward to replace Hawthorn’s version of Shaun McKernan, Tim O’Brien.

Pittonet has been great for us though, and really relished by the number one ruck. Love his aggression and pressure round the stoppages.

 

[ChappyUK]

There is no bull in their midfield. Mitchell is just an extractor. Jaeger is more worried about his hair being ruffled or is still spooked by his knees. Shiels is vanilla. Worpel probably should be like last year but seems he's taken a back seat cos Mitchell is back.
Smith is still ok but Scully seems to run all day...away from the ball and contact