BlueManic
Team Captain
Regardless of the result tonight I think it is important to have a discussion about exactly where Carlton is at. I would like to start this thread on the Carlton board but past history has shown it is impossible to have an rationale discussion as anything remotely critical is deemed to be trolling, plus I want the opinions of other fans. This thread isn't a "Ratten is shit" "Judd is past it" attempt at trolling. It is for genuine discussion only - if you want to take pot shots please do so in other threads.
Right we all know the history - dismal from 2002 onwards and a proper rebuild started in 2005 (remembering 2004 was a top up year). Clubs that have started their rebuilds later than Carlton and seemingly gone ahead include West Coast, Adelaide, Collingwood and Essendon. There are obviously two paths the club can go down - this is just a form slump and we need to trust the list/structure we have or it is time for drastic change. I will make the case for each below.
Just a form slump
Missing from the best 22 at the moment are our CHB and CHF (Waite and Hendo), two of our key mids (Carrazo and Murphy), Duigan and Laider (two cogs of our defence) and missing tonight is Kreuzer. Others have been injured in recent weeks include Yarran. So for the last month or so between 4 and 7 of the best 22 have been missing.
So one can legitimately argue that with around 1/3 of the best 18 missing it is no wonder Carlton is struggling against teams like Port and lost to StKilda etc.
Many Carlton supporters will also point to the Geelong example - who showed faith in 2006 with Thomson and their structure and it paid dividends.
If that is the case then the best path forward for Carlton in 2012 is to work on its structure and get some games into the next tier of players. Give guys like Lucas, Watson, Bootsma etc a go and try and unearth 3-4 gems who will add to the depth when the stars come back. Realistically it is almost impossible to win a flag outside the 4, but this year is very open. So Carlton could make a call later in the year and either keep getting experience into the fringe talent, with a focus on 2013, or try and tilt for a flag from 5-8th.
It isn't just injuries
Other clubs e.g. West Coast, Collingwood etc have had similar injury levels and are still flying. What the last month has exposed is the lack of a game plan for the Blues and the poor state of players 18-30 on the list.
Carlton lacks a key position forward, none whatsoever. The only bloke with a possible resume for the position is Luke Mitchell, draft pick 42 a couple of years ago and has missed 2 years almost with dodgy shoulders. Trying to make ruck man forwards won't work and Waite is too inconsistent and injured constantly. How can the list management process be so poor to leave such a hole with KPP?
More serious there appears to be a distinct lack of hardness and a commitment to the 1% with the club culture being full of "pretty boys" like Gibbs, more interested in being metrosexual than going in hard at the ball. Also the coach seems to be constantly beaten tactically. The development of guys like Lucas, Watson, Russell etc has also stalled.
There is no point looking at past draft mistakes, but if the view is formed that recruiting has not been up to scratch then a proper turn over in the recruiting department needs to be undertaken.
So if all of these criticisms are seen as genuine, then the Club has no choice but to replace the senior coach, and possibly most of those around him. It should aggressive at the trade table and look at moving on the fringe older players - Russell, Bower etc and try and get some draft picks to invest in youth or trade for ready made best 22 players.
The problem is in 4-5 years time GWS and GC will be flying and Judd will be gone. So Carlton really has a 5 year window max to win a flag and realistically that extends to its time with Murphy, Gibbs etc as the core, because if you assume GC and GWS dominate for 4-5 years, by that stage that core of number 1 picks will be at the end.
So I guess the question is - do we treat this as a blip on the radar and persist with the current structure and trust the list/coach to turn it around? Or do we have an overhaul and try and get a flag before the core of Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer etc are past it.
Again this thread is for rationale discussion only - please no trolling.
Right we all know the history - dismal from 2002 onwards and a proper rebuild started in 2005 (remembering 2004 was a top up year). Clubs that have started their rebuilds later than Carlton and seemingly gone ahead include West Coast, Adelaide, Collingwood and Essendon. There are obviously two paths the club can go down - this is just a form slump and we need to trust the list/structure we have or it is time for drastic change. I will make the case for each below.
Just a form slump
Missing from the best 22 at the moment are our CHB and CHF (Waite and Hendo), two of our key mids (Carrazo and Murphy), Duigan and Laider (two cogs of our defence) and missing tonight is Kreuzer. Others have been injured in recent weeks include Yarran. So for the last month or so between 4 and 7 of the best 22 have been missing.
So one can legitimately argue that with around 1/3 of the best 18 missing it is no wonder Carlton is struggling against teams like Port and lost to StKilda etc.
Many Carlton supporters will also point to the Geelong example - who showed faith in 2006 with Thomson and their structure and it paid dividends.
If that is the case then the best path forward for Carlton in 2012 is to work on its structure and get some games into the next tier of players. Give guys like Lucas, Watson, Bootsma etc a go and try and unearth 3-4 gems who will add to the depth when the stars come back. Realistically it is almost impossible to win a flag outside the 4, but this year is very open. So Carlton could make a call later in the year and either keep getting experience into the fringe talent, with a focus on 2013, or try and tilt for a flag from 5-8th.
It isn't just injuries
Other clubs e.g. West Coast, Collingwood etc have had similar injury levels and are still flying. What the last month has exposed is the lack of a game plan for the Blues and the poor state of players 18-30 on the list.
Carlton lacks a key position forward, none whatsoever. The only bloke with a possible resume for the position is Luke Mitchell, draft pick 42 a couple of years ago and has missed 2 years almost with dodgy shoulders. Trying to make ruck man forwards won't work and Waite is too inconsistent and injured constantly. How can the list management process be so poor to leave such a hole with KPP?
More serious there appears to be a distinct lack of hardness and a commitment to the 1% with the club culture being full of "pretty boys" like Gibbs, more interested in being metrosexual than going in hard at the ball. Also the coach seems to be constantly beaten tactically. The development of guys like Lucas, Watson, Russell etc has also stalled.
There is no point looking at past draft mistakes, but if the view is formed that recruiting has not been up to scratch then a proper turn over in the recruiting department needs to be undertaken.
So if all of these criticisms are seen as genuine, then the Club has no choice but to replace the senior coach, and possibly most of those around him. It should aggressive at the trade table and look at moving on the fringe older players - Russell, Bower etc and try and get some draft picks to invest in youth or trade for ready made best 22 players.
The problem is in 4-5 years time GWS and GC will be flying and Judd will be gone. So Carlton really has a 5 year window max to win a flag and realistically that extends to its time with Murphy, Gibbs etc as the core, because if you assume GC and GWS dominate for 4-5 years, by that stage that core of number 1 picks will be at the end.
So I guess the question is - do we treat this as a blip on the radar and persist with the current structure and trust the list/coach to turn it around? Or do we have an overhaul and try and get a flag before the core of Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer etc are past it.
Again this thread is for rationale discussion only - please no trolling.
