Prediction Cats v Hawks - the best of the best since 1989. Who’d win?

[Spazz Cat]

I'm not leaving out GAS from any best of team.
Bartel? What is his issue?

Neither would I.
I certainly wouldn't leave Bomber out for doing drugs the same I wouldn't leave Gazza out for his indiscretions.
Was just pointing that out.
I'm sure someone would be offended by Bartel rooting around on his missus in this new age. Probs Hodge too for drink driving.
Would rather just worry about the footy.

 

[Vdubs]

Hate to say it, but Hawks.
The 88, 89 teams were super & they won 1991 as well.
Then 2008, plus the 3 peat. You'd have to be pretty one-eyed to think Geelong beats that.
Underrated players like Mew would easily nullify our very IFFY CHF's.

Neither would I.
I certainly wouldn't leave Bomber out for doing drugs the same I wouldn't leave Gazza out for his indiscretions.
Was just pointing that out.
I'm sure someone would be offended by Bartel rooting around on his missus in this new age. Probs Hodge too for drink driving.
Would rather just worry about the footy.

It was reported for a long time that Bartel and his wife had been involved in an "open marriage"

 

[Spazz Cat]

Hate to say it, but Hawks.
The 88, 89 teams were super they won 1991 as well.
Underrated players like Mew would easily nullify our very IFFY CHF's.

It was reported for a long time that Bartel and his wife had been involved in an "open marriage"

Really? F**k it, now I'm actually leaving him out cause I'm jealous.
What do you reckon with our 2007 backline combined with our 89 forward line and midfield?
Reckon it all comes down to if we kick straight.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

I remember his first game against a young lion at the GABBA and the bloke next to me repeatedly saying how do you like that McGrath as an 18 year old Bradshaw tore him a new one.It was a torturous couple of hours for both of us.

Honestly Bradshaw in his early days for Bris v Geel at the Gabba - and it didnt matter who his opponent was - he moved and looked like the next Bernie Quinlan - thats who he reminded me of the time - because he was that good

I can remember Ben Graham getting absolutely annihilated by Bradshaw up their one day- torturous is a very apt word you have chosen in your post

 

[Frappe]

I cant remember seeing how long ago it was - but who played on Carey ( and he might have had multiple Geel opponents on the night ) in that 97 Qual final at MCG against North

Carey kicked 7 goals - in arguably his best ever game ( he has got alot to choose from however ) - it would certainly be in his best 3 career games ever

Ben Graham. Pretty sure he towelled Carey up in H&A and made a comment in the lead-in so Carey felt he owed him one....

 

[Seeds]

Dunno how Mansfield gets in ahead of Mackie.

Mansfields a 2 time all australian and much better player. Thats how.

 

[Seeds]

The 3 changes id have

(1) McGrath - out - anywhere near the "shadows' of the goal posts - then Timmy for some bizarre reason would get the jitters . I can remember a game against Melb - and Allen Jackovich playing FF - had 6 or 7 on the board to half time - Tim had a serious case of the goal square jitters that day . In the 2nd half Andrew Rogers ( a so so player ) was moved onto to Jackovich - and Jackovich didnt get a kick - and didnt look like getting a kick . The only thing i will give McGrath - is Carey use to annihilate 99.99999% of opponents - and using that as a mean statistical average - McGrath went ok against the King

(2) Brownless out - No no no no no - just no where near any best team

(3) Out M Thompson - because he is a disgrace - that bloke when being interviewed has got more bullshiit and spin and excuses than Donald Trump

If its a final then brownless plays. But time finals performer.

 

[Seeds]

Surely against a team with dunstall, franklin and brereton you play atleast one big defender. And that defender probably should be lonergan given franklin was his bunny.

and why would tuck by playing let alone starting from the middle. He was like 36 in 89 and well past his best.

stoneham has to be centre half forward. Ablett playing on a flank or pocket with either hawkins or brownless as full forward. S.johnson and chapman as the small forwards with ond of danger, hocking and Ablett junior resting at a time whilst the others play midfield.

 

[Sttew]

If its a final then brownless plays. But time finals performer.

Once!

 

[Seeds]

Once!

Which once was that?

 

[Sttew]

Which once was that?

Alright, twice

 

[Seeds]

Alright, twice

9 goals in one final. 5 in another. 8 in another. in another he was put to full foward for the first time in 3 years after ablett pulled out due to injury and he kicked 6 goals in the first half and blew the game open. Theres atleast 4 awesome games. Kicked a match winning goal after the siren in another. A number of others where he kicked 3-4 goals. Wasnt terrible in 4 grand finals either where our forwards get very little of the ball. Kicked 12 goals from those 4 games despite only being the full forward in one of them. Was the only geelong player to rock up in the 94 grand final.

 

[SleazySimon]

Teams posted on AFL website today.

GEELONG 1989 - 2020
B:Corey Enright, Matthew Scarlett, Tim McGrath
HB: Michael Mansfield, Harry Taylor, Ken Hinkley
C: Joel Corey, Joel Selwood, Garry Hocking
HF: Patrick Dangerfield, Tom Hawkins, Jimmy Bartel
F: Paul Chapman, Gary Ablett snr, Steve Johnson
R: Brad Ottens, Gary Ablett jnr, Paul Couch
Inter: Cameron Ling, Peter Riccardi, Darren Milburn, Bill Brownless
Coach: Mark Thompson

HAWTHORN 1989-2020
B: Gary Ayres, Chris Langford, Josh Gibson
HB: Luke Hodge, Chris Mew, Grant Birchall
C: Robert DiPierdomenico, Sam Mitchell, Shaun Burgoyne
HF: Cyril Rioli, Dermott Brereton, Luke Breust
F: Lance Franklin, Jason Dunstall, John Platten
R: Ben McEvoy, Michael Tuck, Shane Crawford
Inter: Jarryd Roughead, Jordan Lewis, Brian Lake, Tom Mitchell
Coach: Alastair Clarkson

The heart says Cats. Some tantalising battles - Scarlett v Dunstall; Brereton v Taylor; Langford v Ablett Senior; and Enright v Platten.
Cats’ midfield looks very classy and runs deep.

people romanticize the past too much. The only guys from the 90s who should be included are Ablett Snr and Garry Hocking. Id have Egan or Lonergan instead of McGrath. Hawkins would kill it if he was a froward in the 90s as the game back then would have suited him more and hes unfairly maligned at times

 

[Seeds]

people romanticize the past too much. The only guys from the 90s who should be included are Ablett Snr and Garry Hocking. Id have Egan or Lonergan instead of McGrath. Hawkins would kill it if he was a froward in the 90s as the game back then would have suited him more and hes unfairly maligned at times

People romanticize winning teams from the past. They do exactly the opposite for non winning teams. Its due to association error. We associate things that are linked in memory even if they are not causal. Players who were partially lucky and played in winning teams are incorrectly remembered as being much better than those that didnt. You seem to be making this type of association in your post.

ablett snr, hocking, couch, stoneham and riccardi are all clearly in the top team. Hinkley, barnes, mansfield, brownless and maybe even bairstow, bews and graham could make a case. The team from the early nineties had a top 10 that was better than most flag teams top 10s. Its the bottom 10 that was always its major weakness.

 

[SleazySimon]

People romanticize winning teams from the past. They do exactly the opposite for non winning teams. Its due to association error. We associate things that are linked in memory even if they are not causal. Players who were partially lucky and played in winning teams are incorrectly remembered as being much better than those that didnt. You seem to be making this type of association in your post.

ablett snr, hocking, couch, stoneham and riccardi are all clearly in the top team. Hinkley, barnes, mansfield, brownless and maybe even bairstow, bews and graham could make a case. The team from the early nineties had a top 10 that was better than most flag teams top 10s. Its the bottom 10 that was always its major weakness.

Ive never understood this arguement.
Its a team sport. Theres a reason teams like Adelaide and Collingwood won premierships back then and Geelong didnt, dispite having weaker lists. People have either forgotten how frustrating it was to be a cats supporter in the 90s or they wernt alive. You have a case for guys like stoneham and Riccardi who just missed out on 07 and thats it

 

[dazbroncos]

People romanticize winning teams from the past. They do exactly the opposite for non winning teams. Its due to association error. We associate things that are linked in memory even if they are not causal. Players who were partially lucky and played in winning teams are incorrectly remembered as being much better than those that didnt. You seem to be making this type of association in your post.

ablett snr, hocking, couch, stoneham and riccardi are all clearly in the top team. Hinkley, barnes, mansfield, brownless and maybe even bairstow, bews and graham could make a case. The team from the early nineties had a top 10 that was better than most flag teams top 10s. Its the bottom 10 that was always its major weakness.

Correct -Cant see Spiro Malakellis getting a spot in 07-11 as player #22 - ( no offence to Spiro btw) but Shagga, Rooke, Wojo et al had him covered.

GO Catters

 

[Seeds]

Ive never understood this arguement.
Its a team sport. Theres a reason teams like Adelaide and Collingwood won premierships back then and Geelong didnt, dispite having weaker lists. People have either forgotten how frustrating it was to be a cats supporter in the 90s or they wernt alive. You have a case for guys like stoneham and Riccardi who just missed out on 07 and thats it

You dont understand the argument that half the team was quite ordinary and was carried by an outstanding top half?

i could also throw out the peak end effect. We incorrectly remember the last game of each season as being overwhelmingly representative of the entire season. we forget how good the players were if they had a poor game in the gf. Forget how ordinary players were if they had an above average grand final.

 

[Seeds]

Teams posted on AFL website today.

GEELONG 1989 - 2020
B:Corey Enright, Matthew Scarlett, Tim McGrath
HB: Michael Mansfield, Harry Taylor, Ken Hinkley
C: Joel Corey, Joel Selwood, Garry Hocking
HF: Patrick Dangerfield, Tom Hawkins, Jimmy Bartel
F: Paul Chapman, Gary Ablett snr, Steve Johnson
R: Brad Ottens, Gary Ablett jnr, Paul Couch
Inter: Cameron Ling, Peter Riccardi, Darren Milburn, Bill Brownless
Coach: Mark Thompson

HAWTHORN 1989-2020
B: Gary Ayres, Chris Langford, Josh Gibson
HB: Luke Hodge, Chris Mew, Grant Birchall
C: Robert DiPierdomenico, Sam Mitchell, Shaun Burgoyne
HF: Cyril Rioli, Dermott Brereton, Luke Breust
F: Lance Franklin, Jason Dunstall, John Platten
R: Ben McEvoy, Michael Tuck, Shane Crawford
Inter: Jarryd Roughead, Jordan Lewis, Brian Lake, Tom Mitchell
Coach: Alastair Clarkson

The heart says Cats. Some tantalising battles - Scarlett v Dunstall; Brereton v Taylor; Langford v Ablett Senior; and Enright v Platten.
Cats’ midfield looks very classy and runs deep.

ok here is my team to beat that hawks team.


defence.

B lonergan, scarlett, bews
HB enright, colbert, stewart.

lonergan plays cos buddy was his bunnyfor years on end. Perfect match. Scarlett vs dunstall. What a matchup. Bews plays cos he was also plattens nemesis. The victoria team used to bring in bews just to tag platten. Was also probably geelongs best back pocket of the past thirty years but was too good to spend much time there. Bews also gives speed out of the backline. Enright takes rioli. Obvious one that. who plays on brereton is a tough one. It needs someone with some grunt. I naturally thought egan but with lonergan in the team that makes the team to top heavy. I wouldnt go taylor. Taylor is a star on the likes of riewoldts but the beefier players he struggled a bit. So ive gone left field and chosen colbert. Colbert was probably best as a defender and could take the likes of carey. Colbert also gives flexibility so if it does t work I can switch him with stoneham. Other half back flanker is stewart. Also a no brainer. He is now above hinkley, milburn, mansfield and bos.

midfielder. hawthorn has one big weakness in its midfield. Speed. Odd they left pritchard out,

w riccardi, selwood, motlop
r ottens, dangerfield, ablett.

motlop will be the odd one out but he has cut up hawthorn many times. No one on that team can go with him. selwood, danger and ablett are all big performers against the hawks and the latter two have greasy speed to break them.

forward line.

hf ling, stoneham, chapman
f ablett, hawkins, johnson.

ling tags hodge and destroys him as he normally does. The rest pick themselves. However save for ablett and stoneham the forward line is pretty slow. even more of a reason to have motlop on a wing. The needs for some more speed on the forward line also explains my bench. Have taken hawkins over brownless. Brownless best is better but hawkins gets in for more consistency. Hawkins also adds some more forward pressure.

bench
G.hocking, p. Lynch, bartel, mackie.

hocking picks himself. As does bartel (although i very nearly chose corey over him for extra run). Lynch for some speed and x factor on the forward line to complement the slower johnson and chapman. Motlop also moves forward to help out. Mackie to add some further run out of defence whilst also being capable of defending in the air.

summary
i think the talls can hold their own against the more numerous hawks talls. Ottens murders Mcevoy whilst stoneham is a better second ruck then Roughhead. Pretty much all our big wins over hawthorn have come from a dominant ruck. So pretty confident. The pace and extra number of our smalls would completely overrun the hawks mids. They have two mitchells, lewis, diper and old man tuck running through that midfield. They would be completely cut up on the mcg.

ling and bews are perfect to tag out hodge and platten. Dermie is the worry. But with stewart/mackie helping out colbert I think they can handle him whilst providing attack off half back.

players who would usually make the team but miss out due to matchups:
Taylor and Couch are the two very obvious ones. Hinkley also stiff. Barnes would often make second ruck.

 

[Spazz Cat]

People romanticize winning teams from the past. They do exactly the opposite for non winning teams. Its due to association error. We associate things that are linked in memory even if they are not causal. Players who were partially lucky and played in winning teams are incorrectly remembered as being much better than those that didnt. You seem to be making this type of association in your post.

ablett snr, hocking, couch, stoneham and riccardi are all clearly in the top team. Hinkley, barnes, mansfield, brownless and maybe even bairstow, bews and graham could make a case. The team from the early nineties had a top 10 that was better than most flag teams top 10s. Its the bottom 10 that was always its major weakness.

Bloody oath! That team made 4 GF's. That is bloody good!
& as you say carried by the top half of the team.
Those players are not being romanticized one bit.

 

[Spazz Cat]

ok here is my team to beat that hawks team.


defence.

B lonergan, scarlett, bews
HB enright, colbert, stewart.

lonergan plays cos buddy was his bunnyfor years on end. Perfect match. Scarlett vs dunstall. What a matchup. Bews plays cos he was also plattens nemesis. The victoria team used to bring in bews just to tag platten. Was also probably geelongs best back pocket of the past thirty years but was too good to spend much time there. Bews also gives speed out of the backline. Enright takes rioli. Obvious one that. who plays on brereton is a tough one. It needs someone with some grunt. I naturally thought egan but with lonergan in the team that makes the team to top heavy. I wouldnt go taylor. Taylor is a star on the likes of riewoldts but the beefier players he struggled a bit. So ive gone left field and chosen colbert. Colbert was probably best as a defender and could take the likes of carey. Colbert also gives flexibility so if it does t work I can switch him with stoneham. Other half back flanker is stewart. Also a no brainer. He is now above hinkley, milburn, mansfield and bos.

midfielder. hawthorn has one big weakness in its midfield. Speed. Odd they left pritchard out,

w riccardi, selwood, motlop
r ottens, dangerfield, ablett.

motlop will be the odd one out but he has cut up hawthorn many times. No one on that team can go with him. selwood, danger and ablett are all big performers against the hawks and the latter two have greasy speed to break them.

forward line.

hf ling, stoneham, chapman
f ablett, hawkins, johnson.

ling tags hodge and destroys him as he normally does. The rest pick themselves. However save for ablett and stoneham the forward line is pretty slow. even more of a reason to have motlop on a wing. The needs for some more speed on the forward line also explains my bench. Have taken hawkins over brownless. Brownless best is better but hawkins gets in for more consistency. Hawkins also adds some more forward pressure.

bench
G.hocking, p. Lynch, bartel, mackie.

hocking picks himself. As does bartel (although i very nearly chose corey over him for extra run). Lynch for some speed and x factor on the forward line to complement the slower johnson and chapman. Motlop also moves forward to help out. Mackie to add some further run out of defence whilst also being capable of defending in the air.

summary
i think the talls can hold their own against the more numerous hawks talls. Ottens murders Mcevoy whilst stoneham is a better second ruck then Roughhead. Pretty much all our big wins over hawthorn have come from a dominant ruck. So pretty confident. The pace and extra number of our smalls would completely overrun the hawks mids. They have two mitchells, lewis, diper and old man tuck running through that midfield. They would be completely cut up on the mcg.

ling and bews are perfect to tag out hodge and platten. Dermie is the worry. But with stewart/mackie helping out colbert I think they can handle him whilst providing attack off half back.

players who would usually make the team but miss out due to matchups:
Taylor and Couch are the two very obvious ones. Hinkley also stiff. Barnes would often make second ruck.

What makes this hard is you don't what year it's played.
Lynch is a great inclusion any year. Colbert is a bloody fantastic idea for 89!
Instead of having him on Derm though I'd have him standing in front of Derm.
You know he'd do it. & probably survive.
Mackie and Motlop would be great for now but in 89 you can't play them.
If Hawkins has to play, if it's 80's Ablett I'd move him up to almost a wing. Need to make the most of him and you need his power lurking, not to play on, but just to be somewhere around Dipper just to let him know.
Dipper is a player who will shape the game if 80's rules.
If mid 90's Gaz, I don't think you can fit Hawkins in and Stoneham is a better option at CHF.
Rat on the Rat is very smart. Absolutely needs to happen.

 

[Seeds]

What makes this hard is you don't what year it's played.
Lynch is a great inclusion any year. Colbert is a bloody fantastic idea for 89!
Instead of having him on Derm though I'd have him standing in front of Derm.
You know he'd do it. & probably survive.
Mackie and Motlop would be great for now but in 89 you can't play them.
If Hawkins has to play, if it's 80's Ablett I'd move him up to almost a wing. Need to make the most of him and you need his power lurking, not to play on, but just to be somewhere around Dipper just to let him know.
Dipper is a player who will shape the game if 80's rules.
If mid 90's Gaz, I don't think you can fit Hawkins in and Stoneham is a better option at CHF.
Rat on the Rat is very smart. Absolutely needs to happen.

It is an issue with fantasy teams. I assume you take every player roughly at the peak periods of their career and assume the late eighties players would have slightly higher fitness with extra training to match their 21st century counterparts. The rules however makes it more difficult. You kind of have to pick 1 period.


ps. I pick late eighties Gaz. Every day of the week.

 

[Vdubs]

Ive never understood this arguement.
Its a team sport. Theres a reason teams like Adelaide and Collingwood won premierships back then and Geelong didnt, dispite having weaker lists. People have either forgotten how frustrating it was to be a cats supporter in the 90s or they wernt alive. You have a case for guys like stoneham and Riccardi who just missed out on 07 and thats it

I'm sure you mean Graham. Stoneham long gone by then.

 

[Vdubs]

Teams posted on AFL website today.

GEELONG 1989 - 2020
B:Corey Enright, Matthew Scarlett, Tim McGrath
HB: Michael Mansfield, Harry Taylor, Ken Hinkley
C: Joel Corey, Joel Selwood, Garry Hocking
HF: Patrick Dangerfield, Tom Hawkins, Jimmy Bartel
F: Paul Chapman, Gary Ablett snr, Steve Johnson
R: Brad Ottens, Gary Ablett jnr, Paul Couch
Inter: Cameron Ling, Peter Riccardi, Darren Milburn, Bill Brownless
Coach: Mark Thompson

HAWTHORN 1989-2020
B: Gary Ayres, Chris Langford, Josh Gibson
HB: Luke Hodge, Chris Mew, Grant Birchall
C: Robert DiPierdomenico, Sam Mitchell, Shaun Burgoyne
HF: Cyril Rioli, Dermott Brereton, Luke Breust
F: Lance Franklin, Jason Dunstall, John Platten
R: Ben McEvoy, Michael Tuck, Shane Crawford
Inter: Jarryd Roughead, Jordan Lewis, Brian Lake, Tom Mitchell
Coach: Alastair Clarkson

The heart says Cats. Some tantalising battles - Scarlett v Dunstall; Brereton v Taylor; Langford v Ablett Senior; and Enright v Platten.
Cats’ midfield looks very classy and runs deep.

Pritchard, Guston and Anderson are very stiff.
Ben Graham surely gets a spot ahead of McGrath?
And imho, the very reason we straightened up in 07 was the very underrated Cam Mooney.
And Barry Stoneham gets in as second ruck or something.

But something about our 89-95 players in GF's spells L. Losers. Who knows why, but lose they did. Similarly, and unluckily, Graham and Riccardi, both brilliant players, better than many of our 07-11 players, but Losers. I feel for them because they were not surrounded by the quality that is needed to win a GF.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

But something about our 89-95 players in GF's spells L. Losers. Who knows why, but lose they did. Similarly, and unluckily, Graham and Riccardi, both brilliant players, better than many of our 07-11 players, but Losers. I feel for them because they were not surrounded by the quality that is needed to win a GF.

Pretty simple in my opinion - every year they came up short - there was an outstanding team in their way - i dont buy the mental bulldust - and culture - thats another stupid word in football

As Tom Hafey once said when asked what makes a top coach - and he simply replied - good players and plenty of them - and thats it - it comes down to the talent level in each side

Haw 89 - outstanding side - what was it 7 GFs in a row - West Coast had a state team ( and poor old Freo as a result were set up a million miles behind them ) - and Carlton another outstanding side in 95 - and ive heard Kernahan interviewed and he rates their 95 team far superior to his other flag winning team in 87

As Dermott Brereton once said - some years there is a soft flag - and Dermie is 1000% correct - you have to look at the talent each year playing

2009 StKilda won their 1st 20 games - a top notch effort yet they are mocked ridiculously - another great side was Coll in 1970 - and i couldnt give a shiit they wernt premiers that year - they were still a great side . You have to look at the talent each year - and i have seen the wins and losses - the premiers get miles too much credit - as Malcom Blight said - all premiership teams are treated as some sort of Super team - but in the majority of cases they are not

 

[Spazz Cat]

Pritchard, Guston and Anderson are very stiff.
Ben Graham surely gets a spot ahead of McGrath?
And imho, the very reason we straightened up in 07 was the very underrated Cam Mooney.
And Barry Stoneham gets in as second ruck or something.

But something about our 89-95 players in GF's spells L. Losers. Who knows why, but lose they did. Similarly, and unluckily, Graham and Riccardi, both brilliant players, better than many of our 07-11 players, but Losers. I feel for them because they were not surrounded by the quality that is needed to win a GF.

Reckon Jeans is a bit unlucky to miss out on the coaching side. But suppose it doesn't matter.
Dunno about the Losers thing. Probably a bit.
But a team cheating the cap, State teams and some big time coaching errors were bigger issues.