Politics Climate Change Paradox (cont in part 2)

[Total Power]

Good thing then that you're not their target audience.

Yes i dont have a tinfoil hat on.

 

[Frank Bunn]

EVs have a lot of promise. Their torque curve is exceptional, less moving parts = less maintenance, and technology is moving so quickly we're likely to see annual improvements to battery technology, and they're quieter so residents near major thoroughfares will likely enjoy less traffic noise in time as well.

We already have quite a number of public charging stations too (Chargepoint are growing, as well as a few demonstrator stations installed by RACV/NRMA/RACQ etc).

EVs have a few advantages over vehicles powered by hydrocarbons. And a few significant drawbacks. Despite government targets, it remains to be seen whether they will develop into more than a niche product in Australia.

 

[Total Power]

What have you and other CC alarmists done to change your lifestyle to create a change in use of fossil fuel energy?

Let me know, and I will see if I can kiss it all better for you!

Mofra already mentioned he is not a CC alarmist, neither am i. Not sure why you keep assuming every AGW'er is an alarmist.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Mofra already mentioned he is not a CC alarmist, neither am i. Not sure why you keep assuming every AGW'er is an alarmist.

Time for old mate corpse to start pointing out the alarmist posters in this thread. Really keen to see who has called for a return to the trees.

 

[Mofra]

EVs have a few advantages over vehicles powered by hydrocarbons. And a few significant drawbacks. Despite government targets, it remains to be seen whether they will develop into more than a niche product in Australia.

We tend to have an 'older' car fleet than European nations and the bulk of used cars are ICE so I wouldn't expect a huge shift in the short term, perhaps not in the medium term. We're almost certain to lag behind Europe.

There were projections by economists that the percentage of EVs in Australia would remain fairly low until mid 2020s as more choice and increasing volume won't really bring down the unit cost for a few years. At the moment the EV/Hybrid version of regular ICEs attracts a hefty premium, I imagine that will fall given the Euro manufacturers moving to an all EV/Hybrid model.

I assume that long haulers will still be diesels for quite a while though, especially in Australia given the distances interstate truckies cover.

 

[Les Malone]

Did he say when?

If not, he's not necessarily wrong...

Within yours and mine children lives in 1913!

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[Fadge]

Within yours and mine children lives in 1913!

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Oh my...

 

[Frank Bunn]

We tend to have an 'older' car fleet than European nations and the bulk of used cars are ICE so I wouldn't expect a huge shift in the short term, perhaps not in the medium term. We're almost certain to lag behind Europe.

There were projections by economists that the percentage of EVs in Australia would remain fairly low until mid 2020s as more choice and increasing volume won't really bring down the unit cost for a few years. At the moment the EV/Hybrid version of regular ICEs attracts a hefty premium, I imagine that will fall given the Euro manufacturers moving to an all EV/Hybrid model.

I assume that long haulers will still be diesels for quite a while though, especially in Australia given the distances interstate truckies cover.

Agree. The initial outlay will be prohibitive to many people. A Nissan Leaf costs $49,990 before on-road costs. A Tesla Model 3 costs $66,000 for the standard range and $85,000 for the long range model. Compare these prices to some of the popular small cars. Hyundai i30 $22,990, Mitsubishi ASX $24,990, Mazda CX-$35,150, Toyota Corolla $23,335, Kia Cerato $25,790, Mitsubishi Outlander $25,440. Of course, the initial outlay will be offset by cheaper running costs, but it will be a barrier for many to have to fork out two or three times the price for a new car.

Then you have other practicality issues.

Charging overnight at home will be the main source of power but not everyone has secure off street parking to allow that. Currently the public chargers are free or lost cost but prices could jump as EVs become more popular. As has happened in Norway where a recent price hike has meant powering an electric vehicle can be more expensive than fuelling a similar petrol or diesel car.

The other thing that happens as EVs become more popular is having to queue for a charger. So you spend time queueing, then depending on your car and how much charge you need it can take between 30 minutes to over two hours. People with busy lives won't tolerate this.

 

[Fadge]

Mofra already mentioned he is not a CC alarmist, neither am i. Not sure why you keep assuming every AGW'er is an alarmist.

However, every skeptic is a denier (or worse), right?

 

[Bazzar]

IN a piece written by Team Greta, in Project Syndicate, the authors reaffirm that the “climate crisis” has little to do with the environment and identify precisely their intentions to “dismantle…colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression” …

Why We Strike Again by Greta Thunberg, Luisa Neubauer and Angela Valenzuela – Project Syndicate

“the climate crisis is not just about the environment. It is a crisis of human rights, of justice, and of political will. Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all.”

WE are yet to be told what system would replace capitalism. However, one does not have to read far into the history of the environmental movement to work out which form of actual “oppression” would be their preference.

TEAM GRETA Admits Climate Change Has Nothing To Do With The Environment

“This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been re…

climatism.blog

 

[Mofra]

Agree. The initial outlay will be prohibitive to many people. A Nissan Leaf costs $49,990 before on-road costs. A Tesla Model 3 costs $66,000 for the standard range and $85,000 for the long range model. Compare these prices to some of the popular small cars. Hyundai i30 $22,990, Mitsubishi ASX $24,990, Mazda CX-$35,150, Toyota Corolla $23,335, Kia Cerato $25,790, Mitsubishi Outlander $25,440. Of course, the initial outlay will be offset by cheaper running costs, but it will be a barrier for many to have to fork out two or three times the price for a new car.

Then you have other practicality issues.

Charging overnight at home will be the main source of power but not everyone has secure off street parking to allow that. Currently the public chargers are free or lost cost but prices could jump as EVs become more popular. As has happened in Norway where a recent price hike has meant powering an electric vehicle can be more expensive than fuelling a similar petrol or diesel car.

The other thing that happens as EVs become more popular is having to queue for a charger. So you spend time queueing, then depending on your car and how much charge you need it can take between 30 minutes to over two hours. People with busy lives won't tolerate this.

Yep all valid points.
It will be interesting to see how body corporates approach the issue, as the cost of installing a charger in an secure undercover allocated car space also needs to be factored in to a purchase. I believe there are already some sparkies who have added that to the services. I expect that will be at owner's cost or at best attract only minimal OC contribution.

There is another factor as well - increased fuel efficiency of modern ICEs. e.g. A 2008 Lexus 400h hybrid has a listed combined fuel efficiency of ~8l/100km. That's well above some modern ICEs e.g. a 2018 Skoda Octavia wagon has as much interior cargo space with a combined fuel efficiency in the order of ~5l/100km.

Use of vehicle is important too - EVs have regenerative braking which helps their range for city driving but wouldn't do much for longer drives.

 

[Corpuscles]

Yes cause fossil fuel companies have no "interest" in it, right? Having "deniers only" in your group also sounds very "balanced", does it?

You seemed to miss the point that Happer held those views prior to being engaged.?

In your claimed mega international business concerns do you employ experts for no remuneration?
Of course, opposite sides fund the debate. That is how the capitalist (and communist) systems works.

Do you seriously believe that Australia should abandon fossil fuels, prior to development of economically viable affordable better options, in hope that they might be developed? What is the cost of that?

You want your children and grandchildren sitting around in future (if they are lucky and alive) all having a sook about what the previous generations did, without coming up with positive practical solutions?
But nevertheless pacified, in their deplorable torment that they got rid of heating, cooling, transport and created economic collapse in their haste?

What is your suggested plan to solve this "emergency" situation?
Serious question

 

[Bazzar]

LOL a study funded by fossil fuel company...what do you think the conclusion might be 99.99% percent of the time? without even reading it? i am willing to read independent researches from REAL scientists without a conflict of interest and peer reviewed by the same.

Why is it fossil fuel companies are criticised for funding a study, but its perfectly acceptable for renuable energy companies to do the same?

 

[Chief]

You have trained in law so you know that folks are just ignorantly parroting media reports.

The layperson should be informed that the charge itself can be difficult to make out:

Arson (Vic)

Four elements the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt:

1. The accused damaged or destroyed property by fire; and
2. The property belonged to another person; and
3. The accused purposely damaged or destroyed the property, or knew or believed that damage or destruction was the likely result of his or her actions; and
4. The accused had no lawful excuse for damaging or destroying the property.

Criminal Charge Book

www.judicialcollege.vic.edu.au

If you're dealing with minors (as has been reported in significant numbers in the media reports), then making out the elements outlined in point 3 becomes even more difficult.

Again, folks should bypass the term "arson" and refer to fires as "believed to have been created by human actions".

I didn’t think they were talking about convictions, only charges.

 

[Taylor]

I'm sure it will be a mixture of charging options for some time, grid power in the metropolitan centres to do the bulk of the work initially with solar charge points already being trialled in some servos along the Hume.

It may change the equation for solar panels on homes though, making it more attractive and/or increasing consumer demand for bigger systems - some EVs have the capacity to feed power back to the home so they operate as additional battery storage

Companies are already starting to adjust to a lower carbon industrialised world. We already have hydrogen powered bus fleets in Australia. Vic Market has been using air-powered vehicles since the 60s. We could have been a part of a new industry but yet again it seems we've missed the boat.

Snake made an interesting post about hydrogen production earlier in the thread so there are still opportunities available for Australian industry.

I'd be hesitant to use the car as a battery for the house because the batteries don't like being discharged to half their charge, but it does bring up an interesting point.

Imagine a scenario where giant power plants (whether nuclear, solar farms etc) are pumping power to every home at full blast to charge absolutely massive batteries at home, let's ignore the energy density issues for a moment, and then all the home power and charging cars are from the battery.

There shouldn't be any worry about ramping up demand for power from the grid if everyone wants to put their AC on at 4pm, our main generators would be feeding the grid at a fairly constant rate to keep the batteries topped up and operating between 70 to 100% charge which should last a really, really long time.

A battery buffer system would mean we don't need as much dependence on generators ramping up but they need to be large enough that the use of the power isn't emptying the batteries to the point that we have 500,000 batteries in landfill every year as they die.

And then the lithium iron phosphate batteries don't need to have an off gassing facility that the lead acid ones might, so there could be a firebox of some description to try and keep the batteries from rupturing in a fire and turning them into giant fire lances that light the house next door on fire.

It would cost a fortune and I worry that making the standard home battery too small would mean they die earlier and we are then facing a toxic landfill problem.

 

[Mofra]

I'd be hesitant to use the car as a battery for the house because the batteries don't like being discharged to half their charge, but it does bring up an interesting point.

Imagine a scenario where giant power plants (whether nuclear, solar farms etc) are pumping power to every home at full blast to charge absolutely massive batteries at home, let's ignore the energy density issues for a moment, and then all the home power and charging cars are from the battery.

There shouldn't be any worry about ramping up demand for power from the grid if everyone wants to put their AC on at 4pm, our main generators would be feeding the grid at a fairly constant rate to keep the batteries topped up and operating between 70 to 100% charge which should last a really, really long time.

A battery buffer system would mean we don't need as much dependence on generators ramping up but they need to be large enough that the use of the power isn't emptying the batteries to the point that we have 500,000 batteries in landfill every year as they die.

And then the lithium iron phosphate batteries don't need to have an off gassing facility that the lead acid ones might, so there could be a firebox of some description to try and keep the batteries from rupturing in a fire and turning them into giant fire lances that light the house next door on fire.

It would cost a fortune and I worry that making the standard home battery too small would mean they die earlier and we are then facing a toxic landfill problem.

I think the premise of the car battery reverse feeding the home is more of an emergency measure in the event of blackout, it would surely shorten the lifespan of the car battery if it was being used to do this regularly.

It seems car batteries for electric/hybrid cars can be recycled but judging by this, the recycling centres are still in their infancy so we may not have the capacity in Australia as yet:

Can Electric Car Batteries Be Recycled?

Happily, the answer is yes -- the batteries that power electric cars (and hybrids, for that matter) can be recycled. Learn more about recycling electric car batteries.

auto.howstuffworks.com

Yet another business opportunity?

 

[Deliverance]

You can’t prove that man made climate change is occurring outside of minuscule amounts so you’re willing to resort to force to get your way. No one should be surprised about this.

I don't need to prove anything. The scientists and researchers have proved it all. No force either, just a realisation from various industries that climate change is here and we need to adapt to it. Deniers will politicise it and blame arsonists, the greens Dan Andrews and whoever else Miranda Devine tells them to. But in the meantime the rest of the world is getting on with solutions. Just a shame we're stuck with Luddites in government here, and missing out on billions of dollars being spent globally on the new tech, while our coal power stations becone less and less reliable. But hey at least guys like Adani and Palmer will continue to benefit from it.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

 

[the_interloper]

I'd be hesitant to use the car as a battery for the house because the batteries don't like being discharged to half their charge, but it does bring up an interesting point.

Imagine a scenario where giant power plants (whether nuclear, solar farms etc) are pumping power to every home at full blast to charge absolutely massive batteries at home, let's ignore the energy density issues for a moment, and then all the home power and charging cars are from the battery.

There shouldn't be any worry about ramping up demand for power from the grid if everyone wants to put their AC on at 4pm, our main generators would be feeding the grid at a fairly constant rate to keep the batteries topped up and operating between 70 to 100% charge which should last a really, really long time.

A battery buffer system would mean we don't need as much dependence on generators ramping up but they need to be large enough that the use of the power isn't emptying the batteries to the point that we have 500,000 batteries in landfill every year as they die.

And then the lithium iron phosphate batteries don't need to have an off gassing facility that the lead acid ones might, so there could be a firebox of some description to try and keep the batteries from rupturing in a fire and turning them into giant fire lances that light the house next door on fire.

It would cost a fortune and I worry that making the standard home battery too small would mean they die earlier and we are then facing a toxic landfill problem.

You're talking about a Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) then I'd imagine? Not new technology but new-ish in the domestic sense.

Uninterruptible power supply - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Corpuscles]

I don't need to prove anything. The scientists and researchers have proved it all. No force either, just a realisation from various industries that climate change is here and we need to adapt to it. Deniers will politicise it and blame arsonists, the greens Dan Andrews and whoever else Miranda Devine tells them to. But in the meantime the rest of the world is getting on with solutions. Just a shame we're stuck with Luddites in government here, and missing out on billions of dollars being spent globally on the new tech, while our coal power stations becone less and less reliable. But hey at least guys like Adani and Palmer will continue to benefit from it.

"and missing out on billions of dollars being spent globally on the new tech,"

What is this "new tech" you write / speak about?

Where does it come from?
How is it made and what from?
Is it Co2 neutral? How?
etc

Anythink?

 

[Deliverance]

"and missing out on billions of dollars being spent globally on the new tech,"

What is this "new tech" you write / speak about?

Where does it come from?
How is it made and what from?
Is it Co2 neutral? How?
etc

Anythink?

Renewables, Carbon Capture and storage, DAC and other NETs. Look in to it if you want to learn. Ignore it if you don't.

 

[Bazzar]

Are the greenies and team Greta protesting about the destruction of rainforest Balsa trees in Ecuador, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea for the use in wind turbine blades?





“Balsa has one of the biggest shortages” among materials used in wind turbines, said Tobias Hahn, chief executive of Diab Group, one of three leading material suppliers for wind turbine blades. The wood is grown almost exclusively in Ecuador, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea. Producers in the Latin American country have benefited from the shortage, saying prices are likely to keep rising next year. Wind turbine manufacturers are racing to prepare for a bumper year in 2020, when a surge in newly installed wind capacity is expected in the world’s two biggest economies. Next year “is going to be big for wind power in the US and China”, said Shashi Barla, a wind energy analyst at Wood Mackenzie. The consultancy predicts 75 gigawatts of wind power capacity will be added globally next year, up from 67GW in 2019, and expects a demand spike in China ahead of the lapsing of subsidies in 2021. The plastic material PET has increasingly been used as a substitute for balsa in turbine blades, accounting for about 30 per cent of the market. But a boom in demand on the back of the balsa problems has also created a shortage of PET. PVC is another alternative.

Balsa shortage threatens wind power rollout

Strong yet lightweight tropical wood is key component in core of turbine blades

www.ft.com

 

[Taylor]

You're talking about a Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) then I'd imagine? Not new technology but new-ish in the domestic sense.

Uninterruptible power supply - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More like a giant grid fed powerwall, but the concept would be the same - a battery kept to full by the grid that when the sun goes down will power the world.

 

[the_interloper]

More like a giant grid fed powerwall, but the concept would be the same - a battery kept to full by the grid that when the sun goes down will power the world.

Yeah fair enough, a UPS is more of a piecemeal solution, not intended for long run times.

 

[Taylor]

Yeah fair enough, a UPS is more of a piecemeal solution, not intended for long run times.

The IT guys at my old work described them as a paracute to stop the server from crashing hard as power went out, letting it turn off how it is supposed to.

The battery size I'm thinking of would need to be 4 to 5 times the size of the car batteries, so be able to safely charge the car without dropping below the 70% charged level.

They would be massive.