Competitions Collingwood All Time Draft

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Trickster

Club Legend
Jul 27, 2014
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OK, time for #2 ...
Jelly Bean
Backs
: Bob Nash, Gary Pert; Mick Gayfer;
Half Back: Jack Monohan; Len Fitzgerald; Dan Minogue (C)
Centre: Dick Condon; Fred Leach; John Greening
Half Forward: Nick Davis; David Cloke; Charlie Pannam Sr
Forward: Andy Krakouer; Gordon Coventry; Frank Hailwood
Followers: Damian Monkhorst; Brianna Davey; Des Tuddenham (VC)

The good: Structurally really solid, with only one problematic line. Great centre and half-forward lines, with plenty of 1890s heroes (Condon, Leach and Pannam all personal favourites). Love Fitzgerald at CHB – he really could have been anything as a footballer if he’d stayed here (won three Magarey medals in SA after he left). Lots of leadership on offer too – Minogue and Tuddy were two of our great leaders, and Bob Nash was a rascal. Nick Davis and Charlie Pannam Snr playing alongside David Cloke looks really good, and choosing Gordon Coventry with your first pick was a smart move: immediately elevates any team. Good to see the long-forgotten Charger Hailwood in the pocket too. Monkey a good ruckman, and Johnny Greening a standout.

Question marks: Well, well, well – you’ve certainly thrown the cat amongst the proverbials here, haven’t you Mr Bean? The big Q in this team is obviously the ruck-rover spot: Bri Davey is in some ways an inspired call. But it also feels a bit cheeky, and it certainly makes the team very hard to judge overall! I’m still grappling with it, I have to admit.

The only non-Bri question mark is over the defence. I think it’s potentially a little slow, and the half-back line is unbalanced. Jack Monohan really was only a CHB – I don’t think he played on a HBF all that often. Whereas Fitzy could have played on a HBF (although a bit of a waste), or at CHF or as a ruck-rover. Ditto with Dan Minogue – he’s not really a flanker. Players who played as ‘followers’ in that time (think Dan, Con McCarthy, Doc Seddon etc) have proven very hard to categorise in these teams. They’re not big enough to be true ruckmen, and not mobile enough to be flankers or ruck-rovers. I see them mostly as a big back or forward pocket. So Dan is not really agile enough to play HBF regularly (my references to him playing across half-back, especially early in his career, were more about him playing centrally). All up that makes for a slow half-back line. When you then add in the back line, which isn’t exactly uber-quick itself, it makes the whole defence feel a little slow. I think the back half could sustain either Nash or Minogue but probably not both. There’s no back pocket or back flanker who is going to provide much dash out of the back half, to complement the dashing key position players you’ve got.

Best line: Condon-Leach-Greening. Thrilling centre line. I love the whole Fred Leach story and have always been fascinated by him. Dick Condon was a marvel of his time, and a player I would try to have got into my own team. And Greening was a star who would have become even better if he hadn’t been … well, you know.

Weakest link: Aside from the half-back line, I was also a bit surprised to see Andy Krakouer in there, given he really only gave us one good year. Sure, it was a bloody good year, but still ...

Player quality: Good (11 players from the top 125) Rating 7/10

Team balance: 8/10 – only the half-back line stops it from being higher.

Summary: A really good team that hangs together well and has plenty of star power, and a good representation of the deep past, which I admire. But it does have an unhelpfully slow defence. And I still have no idea how to rate a team with Bri Davey as ruck-rover! That has really thrown me :)
Just echoing the same thoughts here. What a great summary Michael, appreciate the dissection and your time and effort in putting these summaries together!
 

Trickster

Club Legend
Jul 27, 2014
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He did! Peter McKenna was the 8th player selected:
View attachment 1282238
This was a 'draft', with 11 participants taking it in turn to make their selections and form a team (of 18). 198 players were chosen, and (like in a normal draft) nobody could be chosen more than once! Those who participated were not simply naming their best ever Collingwood sides.
Haha - Ctrl C then Ctrl V again :)
 

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Lardieslads

Rookie
Nov 1, 2021
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Talking about having links to the older players apparently when I was in Grade Two we were asked what we wanted to be when we grew up. Most kids answered Superman, Batman, Policeman, Nurse, Doctor, Fireman or Cowboy (probably politically incorrect now). My answer was Albert Collier.
We all Bleed Black and White.
Wow - if i could give you extra credits just for that answer, I would ...
 

Lardieslads

Rookie
Nov 1, 2021
44
319
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Collingwood
And now it's time for review #3 ...
South Of The Yarra
Backs
: Harold Rumney, Jack Hamilton, Alf Dummett
Half Back: Denis Banks, Albert Collier, Shane Morwood
Centre: Graeme Wright, Des Fothergill, Bruce Abernethy
Half Forward: Bill Twomey Sr, Frank Murphy, Ted Lockwood
Forward: Harry Curtis, Brian Taylor, Mick Twomey
Followers: Darren Jolly, Ronnie Wearmouth, Billy Libbis

The good: Love the set-up of most of the team, with the vast majority of players being where they should be. Also plenty of quality individually, and I loved seeing Frank Murphy getting some credit. He’s a vastly underrated footballer and certainly one of the finest CHFs in our history (though he was, in modern terms, more a mobile lead-up forward than a clunking pack mark type player). Fother in the centre is a dream, and there’s plenty of pace and experience throughout.

Question marks: The forward line is too tall. Curtis, BT and Mick Twomey are all big blokes and the team sorely needs a small man there. You took Harry C at 130: take Percy Wilson instead (or Bone, Norman etc who followed later) and it’s just about a perfectly balanced team.

The only other super-nitpicking point is that we have two pure rovers (Wearmouth and Billy Libbis (oops!)) in the ruck division, rather than a rover and a ruck-rover. But Ronnie could probably handle the ruck-rover role anyway.

Best line: There’s a few to choose from here but I really like the half-back line. Tough as nails with Banks and Leeter, perfectly counterbalanced by Morph’s poise. Superb.

Weakest link: The top-heavy forward line. And leadership: incredibly, only one of the team ever captained Collingwood (Harry Curtis, for one year). That’s a stark contrast with some of the other teams selected here.

Player quality: Outstanding. 15 out of the 18 were in our 125, and Darren Jolly was one of the three others. Plus every player played at least 50 games – no one-season wonders here. 9/10

Team balance: 8/10 – forward line and Ronnie as ruck-rover the only issues

Summary: With a couple of minor exceptions, this is a really well balanced team in terms of selection, populated by 15 of the club’s best 125 players. So the individual quality is there, and few players have been played horribly out of position. And the three players chosen from outside the 125 are all perfect for their roles – Jolly in the ruck, Abernethy on the wing and Teddy Lockwood at half-forward. But the absence of on-field leaders is a negative, as is a too-tall forward line. Still, a bloody good team.
 
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manicmagpie

A slice of fried gold
Jul 2, 2003
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This thread is exactly the type of thing I wanted to see when I first joined this site a long time ago.

I'll just take this opportunity to thank Lardieslads for all the great Collingwood books he's given us over the years. Particularly 'A Century of the Best', which I got as a present as a young teenager in 1992 and is still with me today. It really sparked my love of Collingwood's history. Although I have to say I reckon I was probably happier not knowing about the horrible story of John Greening.
 

Lardieslads

Rookie
Nov 1, 2021
44
319
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This thread is exactly the type of thing I wanted to see when I first joined this site a long time ago.

I'll just take this opportunity to thank Lardieslads for all the great Collingwood books he's given us over the years. Particularly 'A Century of the Best', which I got as a present as a young teenager in 1992 and is still with me today. It really sparked my love of Collingwood's history. Although I have to say I reckon I was probably happier not knowing about the horrible story of John Greening.
Thanks MM - I had so much fun writing that book, so I'm glad you liked it. Took a year off from work to do it and loved every second. And I'm so glad I did it then, because at least some of the Machine guys were still around, so I could talk to Bruce Andrew, Percy Bowyer, Len Murphy and Harry Collier. That was pretty special :)
 

Trickster

Club Legend
Jul 27, 2014
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And now it's time for review #3 ...
South Of The Yarra
Backs
: Harold Rumney, Jack Hamilton, Alf Dummett
Half Back: Denis Banks, Albert Collier, Shane Morwood
Centre: Graeme Wright, Des Fothergill, Bruce Abernethy
Half Forward: Bill Twomey Sr, Frank Murphy, Ted Lockwood
Forward: Harry Curtis, Brian Taylor, Mick Twomey
Followers: Darren Jolly, Ronnie Wearmouth, Billy Libbis

The good: Love the set-up of most of the team, with the vast majority of players being where they should be. Also plenty of quality individually, and I loved seeing Frank Murphy getting some credit. He’s a vastly underrated footballer and certainly one of the finest CHFs in our history (though he was, in modern terms, more a mobile lead-up forward than a clunking pack mark type player). Fother in the centre is a dream, and there’s plenty of pace and experience throughout.

Question marks: The forward line is too tall. Curtis, BT and Mick Twomey are all big blokes and the team sorely needs a small man there. You took Harry C at 130: take Percy Wilson instead (or Bone, Norman etc who followed later) and it’s just about a perfectly balanced team.

The only other super-nitpicking point is that we have two pure rovers (Wearmouth and Ray Shaw) in the ruck division, rather than a rover and a ruck-rover. But Ronnie could probably handle the ruck-rover role anyway.

Best line: There’s a few to choose from here but I really like the half-back line. Tough as nails with Banks and Leeter, perfectly counterbalanced by Morph’s poise. Superb.

Weakest link: The top-heavy forward line. And leadership: incredibly, only one of the team ever captained Collingwood (Harry Curtis, for one year). That’s a stark contrast with some of the other teams selected here.

Player quality: Outstanding. 15 out of the 18 were in our 125, and Darren Jolly was one of the three others. Plus every player played at least 50 games – no one-season wonders here. 9/10

Team balance: 8/10 – forward line and Ronnie as ruck-rover the only issues

Summary: With a couple of minor exceptions, this is a really well balanced team in terms of selection, populated by 15 of the club’s best 125 players. So the individual quality is there, and few players have been played horribly out of position. And the three players chosen from outside the 125 are all perfect for their roles – Jolly in the ruck, Abernethy on the wing and Teddy Lockwood at half-forward. But the absence of on-field leaders is a negative, as is a too-tall forward line. Still, a bloody good team.
Another brilliant and insightful review. Fast becoming my favorite part of the day around this time. Start scrambling for my phone to read the next instalment :)
 

magpies42

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 10, 2005
5,865
3,430
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
collingwood
And now it's time for review #3 ...
South Of The Yarra
Backs
: Harold Rumney, Jack Hamilton, Alf Dummett
Half Back: Denis Banks, Albert Collier, Shane Morwood
Centre: Graeme Wright, Des Fothergill, Bruce Abernethy
Half Forward: Bill Twomey Sr, Frank Murphy, Ted Lockwood
Forward: Harry Curtis, Brian Taylor, Mick Twomey
Followers: Darren Jolly, Ronnie Wearmouth, Billy Libbis

The good: Love the set-up of most of the team, with the vast majority of players being where they should be. Also plenty of quality individually, and I loved seeing Frank Murphy getting some credit. He’s a vastly underrated footballer and certainly one of the finest CHFs in our history (though he was, in modern terms, more a mobile lead-up forward than a clunking pack mark type player). Fother in the centre is a dream, and there’s plenty of pace and experience throughout.

Question marks: The forward line is too tall. Curtis, BT and Mick Twomey are all big blokes and the team sorely needs a small man there. You took Harry C at 130: take Percy Wilson instead (or Bone, Norman etc who followed later) and it’s just about a perfectly balanced team.

The only other super-nitpicking point is that we have two pure rovers (Wearmouth and Ray Shaw) in the ruck division, rather than a rover and a ruck-rover. But Ronnie could probably handle the ruck-rover role anyway.

Best line: There’s a few to choose from here but I really like the half-back line. Tough as nails with Banks and Leeter, perfectly counterbalanced by Morph’s poise. Superb.

Weakest link: The top-heavy forward line. And leadership: incredibly, only one of the team ever captained Collingwood (Harry Curtis, for one year). That’s a stark contrast with some of the other teams selected here.

Player quality: Outstanding. 15 out of the 18 were in our 125, and Darren Jolly was one of the three others. Plus every player played at least 50 games – no one-season wonders here. 9/10

Team balance: 8/10 – forward line and Ronnie as ruck-rover the only issues

Summary: With a couple of minor exceptions, this is a really well balanced team in terms of selection, populated by 15 of the club’s best 125 players. So the individual quality is there, and few players have been played horribly out of position. And the three players chosen from outside the 125 are all perfect for their roles – Jolly in the ruck, Abernethy on the wing and Teddy Lockwood at half-forward. But the absence of on-field leaders is a negative, as is a too-tall forward line. Still, a bloody good team.
Ray Shaw is in my time I thought, unless there has been a behind the scenes poaching attempt 😂
 

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Lardieslads

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Ray Shaw is in my time I thought, unless there has been a behind the scenes poaching attempt 😂
Ha ha - you're right! I'd had him on my mind coz I'd checked to see whether Ronnie had played as ruck rover when he and Ray played together, so just mentioned him instead of Billy Libbis. Now corrected - thanks :)
 

cityslick1

Club Legend
Feb 27, 2017
1,297
1,948
Japan
AFL Club
Collingwood
And now it's time for review #3 ...
South Of The Yarra
Backs
: Harold Rumney, Jack Hamilton, Alf Dummett
Half Back: Denis Banks, Albert Collier, Shane Morwood
Centre: Graeme Wright, Des Fothergill, Bruce Abernethy
Half Forward: Bill Twomey Sr, Frank Murphy, Ted Lockwood
Forward: Harry Curtis, Brian Taylor, Mick Twomey
Followers: Darren Jolly, Ronnie Wearmouth, Billy Libbis

The good: Love the set-up of most of the team, with the vast majority of players being where they should be. Also plenty of quality individually, and I loved seeing Frank Murphy getting some credit. He’s a vastly underrated footballer and certainly one of the finest CHFs in our history (though he was, in modern terms, more a mobile lead-up forward than a clunking pack mark type player). Fother in the centre is a dream, and there’s plenty of pace and experience throughout.

Question marks: The forward line is too tall. Curtis, BT and Mick Twomey are all big blokes and the team sorely needs a small man there. You took Harry C at 130: take Percy Wilson instead (or Bone, Norman etc who followed later) and it’s just about a perfectly balanced team.

The only other super-nitpicking point is that we have two pure rovers (Wearmouth and Billy Libbis (oops!)) in the ruck division, rather than a rover and a ruck-rover. But Ronnie could probably handle the ruck-rover role anyway.

Best line: There’s a few to choose from here but I really like the half-back line. Tough as nails with Banks and Leeter, perfectly counterbalanced by Morph’s poise. Superb.

Weakest link: The top-heavy forward line. And leadership: incredibly, only one of the team ever captained Collingwood (Harry Curtis, for one year). That’s a stark contrast with some of the other teams selected here.

Player quality: Outstanding. 15 out of the 18 were in our 125, and Darren Jolly was one of the three others. Plus every player played at least 50 games – no one-season wonders here. 9/10

Team balance: 8/10 – forward line and Ronnie as ruck-rover the only issues

Summary: With a couple of minor exceptions, this is a really well balanced team in terms of selection, populated by 15 of the club’s best 125 players. So the individual quality is there, and few players have been played horribly out of position. And the three players chosen from outside the 125 are all perfect for their roles – Jolly in the ruck, Abernethy on the wing and Teddy Lockwood at half-forward. But the absence of on-field leaders is a negative, as is a too-tall forward line. Still, a bloody good team.
Michael.... can you take over the list management role at the club please. Am not joking.

Still think this teams wins. Some tough reviews coming up for other teams (including mine) I fear.....
 

magpies42

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 10, 2005
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Michael.... can you take over the list management role at the club please. Am not joking.

Still think this teams wins. Some tough reviews coming up for other teams (including mine) I fear.....
I dunno, I picked players based on performances in big games as a criteria…the Weid is legendary from that perspective.
 

Chrispiesssss

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 31, 2014
9,149
12,247
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Collingwood
This may or may not be the appropriate thread to ask this question. However, I’ll give it a shot anyway.

What’s the difference between a Rover and a Ruck Rover in the traditional sense?

I’m young so I’m used to it being “the players in the Center square”.

Thanks!
 

magpies42

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 10, 2005
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collingwood
This may or may not be the appropriate thread to ask this question. However, I’ll give it a shot anyway.

What’s the difference between a Rover and a Ruck Rover in the traditional sense?

I’m young so I’m used to it being “the players in the Center square”.

Thanks!
Good question! I always thought it had to do with their roles in ruck contests….which became irrelevant when it became stacks on at every contest.
 

Trickster

Club Legend
Jul 27, 2014
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Good question! I always thought it had to do with their roles in ruck contests….which became irrelevant when it became stacks on at every contest.
Would be my guess also 42. Rovers were always your smaller types whereas RRs were mid-size who could also ruck if needed. I believe they all followed the ball too hence followers, though not sure if the centreman did also.
 

Lardieslads

Rookie
Nov 1, 2021
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319
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Collingwood
This may or may not be the appropriate thread to ask this question. However, I’ll give it a shot anyway.

What’s the difference between a Rover and a Ruck Rover in the traditional sense?

I’m young so I’m used to it being “the players in the Center square”.

Thanks!
That's a darned good question, and the answer has changed a bit over time.
In footy's earliest days, pretty much everyone on the ball was sometimes (but not always) referred to as 'followers' or even being 'in the ruck'. By the early 1900s/1910s, there became a distinction between ruckmen, rovers and another big guy, usually called a follower or a shepherder, whose job it was to clear a path for the ruckman (guys like Dan Minogue, George Angus, Doc Seddon, Con McCarthy etc used to perform this role, often for a genuine tall like Les Hughes). But then shepherding was outlawed and the position of follower kind of died out.
Somewhere around either the 1930s or the 1950s, depending on who you believe, the position of ruck-rover came into being. This was a bloke who was usually considerably smaller than the followers had been, but still bigger than the pure rovers. At one level (with guys like Percy Bowyer) it was just to provide greater mobility around the ball (remember, for most of these periods, centremen tended to stay at home in the middle and not stray far), but in some other set-ups (such as with Hooker Harrison in the 1950s), the position was designed to get first hands on the ball from the ruck and farm it out to the rover running wide. By the 1960s it had usually just become a slightly bigger bodied midfielder. So Wayne Richardson was a pure rover. Tuddy was more a ruck-rover. As was Max R. By the late 70s it was guys like Ohlsen and Byrne and Morris, while the roving was handled by Wearmouth and Ray Shaw.
But over time, as the game has become more fluid and everyone moves all the time, the notion of a separate rover and ruck-rover gradually died out. But I still like seeing footy teams selected that way - it's a nice little blast from the past!
 

half_back_flank

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 16, 2008
10,613
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I dunno, I picked players based on performances in big games as a criteria…the Weid is legendary from that perspective.
As did I, hence Leon.

Seriously though, outside of Ball’s snap in the prelim, Leon having three very good finals was my favourite moment of the 2011 season. Banished a lot of demons, I’m so glad he got that chance before retirement.
 

Lardieslads

Rookie
Nov 1, 2021
44
319
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Collingwood
BTW, on a completely different topic, the club has just kicked off a campaign to try to get people to share their Collingwood stories - how they fell in love with the Pies etc. I thought that might be the kind of thing that would appeal to some of you: if so, you can submit the details here:
Or you can look for the links on the club website if the above doesn't work (i've kicked it off with a story that will make you love Jack Regan even more, if you find it). It could be a bit of fun, and any really interesting stories I may well take for a new series I'll be pulling together soon called This Collingwood Life (very broad, just unusual and interesting stories about Collingwood people with good stories to tell). Let me know if you know of anyone who you think would be a good candidate ...
Now, back to the All Time Draft ...
 

half_back_flank

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 16, 2008
10,613
6,270
AFL Club
Collingwood
This thread is exactly the type of thing I wanted to see when I first joined this site a long time ago.

I'll just take this opportunity to thank Lardieslads for all the great Collingwood books he's given us over the years. Particularly 'A Century of the Best', which I got as a present as a young teenager in 1992 and is still with me today. It really sparked my love of Collingwood's history. Although I have to say I reckon I was probably happier not knowing about the horrible story of John Greening.
Great call. I used to ride around to my grandparents place to read pops copy. Read it cover to cover multiple times, I was adamant it had to be willed to me since about age 10.
 

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