List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade & FA 2024

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loki04 said:
I think Hine has a great eye for HFF, HBF, KPD Small lead up fwds, small defenders, wingers and defensive fwds.

Mids he is quality as an overall recruiter though I think he struggles with the big physical inside types (J.Cripps, T.Greene, S.P-Pepper, Oliver etc).

He has his kryptonite in KPF and indigenous small forwards with Davis or Hill skill sets. He just can't pick them.
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Loki - mate.
Having achieved relative flag success comparable to the revered Geel recruiters it’s hardly Kyptonite.
 
brysie said:
It's also interesting how Geelong seem to be able to afford everything - part of this I think is more an illusion than reality, but it doesn't stop the media linking every returning player to Geelong, irrespective of what their cap space might actually be.

Still, rumours about large tracts of land and farms being set aside for players remain persistent.
Click to expand...


They aint rumours mate. Different sort of currency being used outside the cap thats all.
 

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ThePheonix said:
Teams like StKilda have their goal to win a premiership, which is admirable, though Collingwood have achieved that, in 1990, 2010 and now again in 2023.

In my life time I’ve seen Carlton’s , Essendon’s, Hawthorn’s dynasty's of the 80’s, then Geelong’s, Hawthorn's (their second) and Richmond’s dynasty’s. Considering we are the biggest in the land and that we haven’t had a dynasty since the 1930’s, nearly a century ago, I’ve expected to witness at least one Collingwood dynasty in my life time.

I don’t know maybe I’m asking too much.
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Our best chance for a dynasty was that 2009 to 2012 period - we played in 4 straight prelims and back to back GF's with only 1 flag to show for it. The coaching drama really derailed that period of time.

Premierships are so hard to win - need everyhting to click and thats even harder to occur over a period of years. Thats why I cherish the memories of 2023 so much
 
peter9789 said:
Our best chance for a dynasty was that 2009 to 2012 period - we played in 4 straight prelims and back to back GF's with only 1 flag to show for it. The coaching drama really derailed that period of time.

Premierships are so hard to win - need everyhting to click and thats even harder to occur over a period of years. Thats why I cherish the memories of 2023 so much
Click to expand...
That coaching drama cost a flag or so. We had such a strong team back then.
 
I wouldn't mind having a crack at Josh Battle as an unrestricted Free agent.

Could be a handy key defender.
 
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Pedro said:
Not a huge nymber of names on that list that spike much interest. Cumming, Perryman, Melican & Battle are the only ones I'd have much interest in. Blake Hardwick a maybe
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Conor Nash my most interested, although those Irish don't seem to move clubs very often. Big-bodied mid who executes his role well. Fly would love him.

I don't mind Hardwick at all, and Mitchell looks to be injecting more youth and run in their back six. He's quality, but it wouldn't bode well for Ryan and Jiath's development, I suppose.

Andrew McGrath is quietly the other one I'd be interested in, but a vice captain will be hard to move without a big offer. I will quote myself as saying McGrath is just about the most average half-back in the league. There are probably as many players better in his role as there are worse. But I still think there's untapped potential and a new club might benefit him. I think he can get to the level Angus Brayshaw did at his peak.
 
brysie said:
It's why I think the club needs to start getting on the front foot to counter the current narrative around 'inequality' in the League.

Inequality exists and always will in the League's current format. But the conversation is being dominated by the northern states who, at this point in time, seem to have the AFL's ear.

There are various inequality issues which aren't tied to draft picks and the development of players, such as fixturing and the salary caps (including the soft cap). Examples include Hardwick's salary not being included in the soft cap, annual games being baked into the fixture (e.g. our game on Easter weekend every year up at the GABBA, Opening Round, Gather Round).
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Money and growth speak loudly. Too much invested now for Gold Coast and GWS not to lead to gains, Brisbane and Sydney leveraging it.

They want Sydney to become the next West Coast or Collingwood.

That’s why I reckon we could at least boost our efforts in the state. It would be pleasing to poach a few players, too.
 
loki04 said:
He has his kryptonite in KPF and indigenous small forwards with Davis or Hill skill sets. He just can't pick them.
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That’s an interesting take on the indigenous small forwards. Brad Dick could definitely play, he just didn’t have the body to hold up to AFL. Kayle Kirby could definitely play but had a cardiac issue.

We traded for Hill and picked up Krakouer during Hine’s tenure.

Was Brenden “The Big Show” Abbott indigenous? Because he could absolutely play.
 

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Roverjg said:
Curious as to why you commenced your spin from 2010 and not earlier say 2000. Was it to justify your argument against Geelong?. They played in 4 GFs in 5 years from 2007. So in effect they have won 4 premierships with KPFs in 15 years and played finals every single year until 2023 despite only mid range picks. I would call that a dynasty and great recruitment

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
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KPFs were the weakest part of the Cats from 2007-2011. Mooney was solid. Podsiadly was OK. Hawkins didn't come good until the 2011 GF. They weren't really any stornger than Mihocek and McStay. They're mids and defenders were off the charts good and Stevie J was a fantastic forward. Chapman good too.
 
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peter9789 said:
Our best chance for a dynasty was that 2009 to 2012 period - we played in 4 straight prelims and back to back GF's with only 1 flag to show for it. The coaching drama really derailed that period of time.

Premierships are so hard to win - need everyhting to click and thats even harder to occur over a period of years. Thats why I cherish the memories of 2023 so much
Click to expand...
The Cats smashed us in 2009. It’s what led to the recruitment of Ball and Jolly.
2011 was the one that got away.
2012 was never going to be a flag.
 
The Royal Sampler said:
That’s an interesting take on the indigenous small forwards. Brad Dick could definitely play, he just didn’t have the body to hold up to AFL. Kayle Kirby could definitely play but had a cardiac issue.

We traded for Hill and picked up Krakouer during Hine’s tenure.

Was Brenden “The Big Show” Abbott indigenous? Because he could absolutely play.
Click to expand...
We were supposedly right into Bolton and a couple of others. We don't get an open choice. Who we draft depends on what picks we have and who others pick before us.

Even with KPFs - with our early picks if you go through them it was JDG or Wirght - correct call made and Stevo or Naughton - wrong call - but Naughton was a full back with a dodgy kick - and I don't think he's that much of a difference maker as a KPF - I think he would be as a KPD, which is where I suspect he'd play for us. So it's really down to us not having guessed right with the half a dozen speculative guys taken late who have become better KPFs than Checkers and McStay.
 
Updates on the FA's
The Cats are expected to re-sign Dangerfield mid-season but are in no rush as he and manager Paul Connors assess his future.

McCluggage told this masthead this year he wanted to sign a new long-term deal at the Lions but, with rival suitors, he will want to secure his financial future.

English is keen to stay at the Western Bulldogs on a six or seven-year deal likely to top $1 million a season with talks continuing.


Gold Coast’s Ben Ainsworth wants to stay but given the lack of quality medium forwards on the free agency market, there is a chance they could be blown out of the water by a rival bid.

Richmond’s Dustin Martin is now likely to put off talks until year’s end, according to manager Ralph Carr, so his future will be a talking point as the Tigers battle to a 0-3 start to the season.

Sydney’s Ollie Florent is keen to remain at the Swans if a deal can be done, but there is no significant progress yet as his club attempts to sign Errol Gulden, Logan McDonald, James Rowbottom and Will Hayward.

Adelaide-raised Hayward has started the season with five goals in three weeks and has significant interest from clubs including those in South Australia as he plays a more expansive role after being a more team-oriented role-playing forward.


Melbourne’s Adam Tomlinson could again draw rival interest given he was dropped after a strong round 1 showing, as a 30-year-old who can play multiple positions.

McGrath is keen to remain a Bomber and, while he is no longer an inside mid, the Dons are likely to reward his exceptional leadership and play at half back with a hefty long-term deal.

Hawthorn is confident their long-term association with Irishman Conor Nash and his key role as a big-bodied midfielder will see him re-sign as an unrestricted free agent.

Richmond’s Dion Prestia is keen to sign another new deal early in the year but his latest tendon-related hamstring issue will make it hard to push his case for an early extension.

His teammate Jack Graham will also have suitors as a hard-running midfielder given he is an unrestricted free agent who can choose his destination without the Tigers matching his deal.



St Kilda is well down the track with Battle on a new long-term deal, and, given he is an unrestricted free agent, he will draw a significant pay rise.

Adelaide’s unrestricted free agent Elliott Himmelberg is likely to, again, attempt to move to Greater Western Sydney but Aaron Cadman’s emergence as a genuine tall prospect could complicate that move.

Collingwood is open to Scott Pendlebury signing a new one-year extension, with the Pies ex-skipper and Jeremy Howe both unrestricted free agents.
Click to expand...

 
memoryofmchale said:
Money and growth speak loudly. Too much invested now for Gold Coast and GWS not to lead to gains, Brisbane and Sydney leveraging it.

They want Sydney to become the next West Coast or Collingwood.

That’s why I reckon we could at least boost our efforts in the state. It would be pleasing to poach a few players, too.
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The AFL, as much as it would like to ignore the fact, remains constrained in what it can do by its 18 member clubs.

From the AFL’s most recent annual report, it’s clear that all 4 northern club still rely heavily on the AFL funding distributions. It is also clear that the funding is generated by a handful of powerful Victorian clubs, as well as West Coast and Adelaide. I’m not sure that the investment to date will lead to gains without the same level being maintained for years to come, nor that Brisbane (and to a lesser extent) Sydney are capable of leveraging it in the long term if it was to be reduced.

I’m also not really referring to the financial investments that are being made when referring to structural inequalities. Although frustrating, they’re unlikely to change in the short term (and some Melbourne teams receive similar amounts); the inequalities I’m referring to are more specific to recruitment, fixturing and the way in which teams like the 4 northern clubs are permitted to use the resources given to them.

As another poster stated, the focus should be on forming relationships and alliances with those clubs who are most affected by the AFL’s current focus on the northern market, namely the WA and (to a lesser extent) the SA teams. We saw some of this when Eddie was President and when Kennett was the President of Hawthorn - unfortunately a lot of the other Victorian clubs stayed silent due to their reliance on AFL funding themselves.

What do you mean by “boost our efforts”?

It hardly seems worth investing in a state that has a limited talent pool, from which the best talent is likely to be funnelled primarily into 2 academies, for whom the clubs don’t play by the same rules as 14 other teams in the competition, in the hope that we might also pinch a few players.
 
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sam_e said:
********************************************
Geelong recruiting history of talls since 2001
  • Tall = anyone recruited at or > 192 cms
  • HIT ie. success = anyone who played 50 games or more at GEE once drafted or traded in (or went on to play > 50 games elsewhere). The definition of a HIT is arguably set at reasonably LOW bar of circa 2 seasons of AFL.
  • +HIT ie. real success = anyone who played 100 games or more at GEE once drafted or traded in (or went on to play > 100 games elsewhere).

Observations:
  • 200 [v Coll. 213] players (total) brought in to the club 2001-23
  • Note: numbers in [parenthesis], square brackets, represent Coll. comparatives
  • Of those 200, 68, 34% [v67, 31%] have been TALL (192cm or >)
  • Of the 68 [v67], 56 [v58] recruited 2001-19 and 12 [v9] recruited since 2020 (for latter cohort, too early to determine HIT or FAIL)
  • Of the 68 TALLS, 38 or 56% [v19, 28%] have been National Draft (ND) selections; 19, 28% [v36, 54%] rookie /int'l rooks /MSD /SSP/UFA etc; and 11, 16% [v12, 18%] traded in (trade)
    • Of the 38 [v19] Tall ND selections, 16 [v12] came before 2008
    • In last 10-yrs, 15 Talls came from ND selections [v COLL with only 5, and 2 of those Father-Sons]
  • Of the 56 [v58] TALLS (up to 2019), 23, 41% [v19, 33%] have been HITS (ie. played >50 games) + J.Cameron a HIT (recruited 2020)
  • Of the 56 [v58] TALLS, (up to 2019), 14, 25% [v14, 24%] have been +HITS (ie. played >100 games) + J.Cameron a projected +HIT (recruited 2020)
  • Of the [v15] TALL +HITS (ie. played >100 games), 8, 53% [v8, 71%] were ND selections; 3 [v2] were traded in and 4 [v4] were rookies
CONCLUSION(S):
  • In period 2001-2023, Geelong recruited 68 talls v Coll 67
  • Geel recruited 38 (56%) of those talls via ND vs Coll 19 (28%)
  • Geelong twice more likely to use ND selection on a tall and they have done this consistently over the period with average 2-3 ND talls brought in each year'ish
  • Coll reliant more heavily on non-ND (Rookies / Int'l /MSD / SSP) selections for recruiting talls
  • Comparative success:
    • Geelong have had 24 [19] of those TALLS play 50 games & 15 [14] play 100 games
    • Geelong have won 4 premierships (2007, 09, 11, 22) vs Collingwood 2 (2010, 23)
*****************************************
Ttl INTALLS IN# ND TallsHITSource+HITSource
2001​
13321ND
2002​
83222*ND22*ND
2003​
9321ND1ND
2004​
7312ND, Trade1Trade
2005​
7311ND
2006​
7141ND1ND
2007​
9642ND, Rooks2ND, Rooks
2008​
8211ND
2009​
1032ND, Rooks1Rooks
2010​
8221Rooks1Rooks
2011​
9322ND, Rooks1Rooks
2012​
52
2013​
7321ND1ND
2014​
1051Trade1Trade
2015​
11423ND, 2*Trade
2016​
13431ND1ND
2017​
611
2018​
1231
2019​
7211ND1ND
562314
2020​
7421Trade1Trade
2021​
1032
2022​
911
2023​
842
1211
20068382415 ND; 4 Rooks; 5 Trade158 ND; 4 Rooks; 3 Trade
34%56%

********************************************

2001
Past GamesAcquired ViaPlayerGamesHIT 50+HIT 100AgeHeightWeightGoalsVotesAwards
1​
77TradeBrent Grgic13FAIL21yr192cm93kg30
2​
National Draft pick 41Henry Playfair68 (52)HIT18yr198cm97kg430
3​
National Draft pick 69Matthew McCarthy22FAIL19yr198cm105kg241
2002
4​
National Draft pick 7Andrew Mackie280HIT+HIT18yr192cm86kg10014AA: 2013; AA40: 2008, 2009; Prem: 2007, 2009, 2011
5​
National Draft pick 23Tom Lonergan209HIT+HIT18yr197cm93kg550AA40: 2012, 2014; Prem: 2011
6​
Rookie Draft pick 8Jeff Smith0FAIL20yr198cm0
2003
7​
11TradeDavid Loats1FAIL22yr200cm98kg00
National Draft pick 38Mark Blake10018yr200cm102kg122Prem: 2009
8​
(FS)HIT+HIT
9​
National Draft pick 42Matthew Spencer2FAIL18yr194cm98kg00
2004
10​
129TradeBrad Ottens116HIT+HIT24yr202cm106kg1099Prem: 2007, 2009, 2011
National Draft pick 48Nathan Ablett34 (32)18yr194cm96kg470Prem: 2007
11​
(FS)FAIL
12​
National Draft pick 62Matthew Egan59HIT21yr196cm101kg12AA: 2007
2005
13​
National Draft pick 31Trent West70 (54)HIT17yr199cm103kg280Prem: 2011
14​
Rookie Draft pick 12Todd Grima0FAIL18yr192cm88kg00
15​
7Rookie Draft pick 41Sam Hunt0FAIL22yr193cm92kg00
2006
National Draft pick 41Tom Hawkins34718yr197cm105kg78173AA: 2012, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022; Coleman: 2020; B&F: 2012; AA40: 2014, 2018; Prem: 2009, 2011, 2022
16​
(FS)HIT+HIT
2007
17​
National Draft pick 17Harry Taylor280HIT+HIT21yr193cm96kg7540AA: 2010, 2013; AA40: 2011, 2012, 2014; Prem: 2009, 2011
18​
National Draft pick 34Dawson Simpson48 (28)FAIL18yr206cm109kg51
19​
National Draft pick 44Scott Simpson0FAIL17yr196cm92kg00
20​
National Draft pick 50Dan McKenna0FAIL18yr195cm85kg00
21​
Rookie Draft pick 46Chris Kangars0FAIL18yr193cm95kg00
22​
Rookie Draft pick 57Shane Mumford216 (21)HIT+HIT21yr198cm104kg5733B&F: 2014; AA40: 2010; Prem: 2012
2008
23​
National Draft pick 15Mitch Brown79 (15)HIT18yr195cm93kg743
24​
National Draft pick 33Tom Gillies15 (13)FAIL18yr192cm95kg10
2009
25​
National Draft pick 42Nathan Vardy77 (25)HIT18yr198cm101kg470Prem: 2018
26​
Rookie Draft pick 37Ben Johnson0FAIL22yr195cm95kg00
27​
Rookie Draft pick 50James Podsiadly104 (83)HIT+HIT28yr193cm100kg19523Prem: 2011
2010
28​
Rookie Draft pick 23Josh Walker139 (33)HIT+HIT17yr196cm91kg751
29​
Rookie Draft pick 71Ryan Bathie0FAIL23yr198cm102kg00
2011
30​
National Draft pick 32Joel Hamling91 (0)HIT18yr194cm88kg02Prem: 2016
31​
National Draft pick 78Orren Stephenson15 (8)FAIL29yr200cm104kg10
32​
Rookie Draft pick 54Mark Blicavs248HIT+HIT20yr198cm95kg6418AA: 2022; B&F: 2015, 2018; AA40: 2018, 2019, 2020; Prem: 2022
2012
33​
107TradeHamish McIntosh19FAIL28yr203cm103kg70
34​
150UFAJared Rivers44FAIL27yr192cm92kg00
2013
35​
National Draft pick 36Jarrad Jansen8 (0)FAIL18yr192cm94kg40
36​
National Draft pick 41Jake Kolodjashnij176HIT+HIT18yr193cm88kg30Prem: 2022
37​
Rookie Draft pick 15James Toohey0FAIL19yr198cm95kg00
2014
38​
97TradeMitch Clark9FAIL26yr200cm103kg140
58Rhys Stanley14023yr200cm96kg652Prem: 2022
39​
TradeHIT+HIT
40​
Rookie Draft pick 14Tom Read0FAIL18yr200cm92kg00
41​
6Rookie Draft pick 32Cameron Delaney0FAIL22yr194cm91kg00
Rookie Draft pick 49Padraig Lucey022yr203cm98kg00
42​
(Intl)FAIL
2015
43​
117TradeLachie Henderson89HIT25yr196cm96kg134
44​
65TradeZac Smith59 (50)HIT25yr205cm98kg231
45​
National Draft pick 59Ryan Gardner53 (0)HIT18yr197cm93kg30
46​
National Draft pick 69Wylie Buzza9FAIL19yr197cm99kg60
2016
47​
50TradeAaron Black7FAIL25yr192cm88kg50
48​
National Draft pick 43Esava Ratugolea77 (75)HIT+HIT18yr194cm95kg380
49​
National Draft pick 68Timm House0FAIL21yr194cm95kg00
50​
National Draft pick 69Ryan Abbott6 (5)FAIL25yr200cm99kg50
2017
51​
National Draft pick 36Charlie Constable16 (12)FAIL18yr192cm86kg60
2018
52​
TradeNathan Kreuger9 (2)FAIL19yr196cm86kg40
53​
UFABlake Schlensog0FAIL18yr195cm90kg00
54​
National Draft pick 65Darcy Fort33 (8)FAIL25yr205cm99kg160
2019
147Josh Jenkins230yr198cm106kg00
55​
TradeFAIL
56​
National Draft pick 19Sam De Koning45HIT+HIT18yr201cm86kg10Prem: 2022
2020
171TradeJeremy Cameron6127yr194cm91kg16138AA: 2022; B&F: 2022; Prem: 2022
57​
HIT+HIT
58​
UFAPaul Tsapatolis0FAIL18yr202cm99kg00
59​
National Draft pick 33Shannon Neale5TBC18yr202cm91kg10
60​
National Draft pick 47Nick Stevens0FAIL18yr192cm84kg00
2021
101Jonathon Ceglar930yr204cm94kg00
61​
TradeFAIL
62​
National Draft pick 24Toby Conway1TBC18yr205cm97kg00
63​
National Draft pick 25Mitch Knevitt11TBC18yr193cm81kg20
2022
64​
National Draft pick 52Phoenix Foster0TBC18yr198cm90kg00
2023
65​
UFAJoe Furphy0TBC24yr202cm87kg00
66​
National Draft pick 11Connor O'Sullivan0TBC18yr198cm92kg00
67​
National Draft pick 32Mitch Edwards0TBC18yr206cm89kg00
68​
7Rookie Draft pick 7Emerson Jeka0TBC22yr197cm87kg00
24​
15​
Click to expand...
Thanks for this some great information there and backs up what I’ve been saying that we don’t develop our own key forwards and for me a key forward is 197cm + Not a forward/ruck like Cox. I take out the F/S picks as that’s not really picking them in the ND. They are coming anyway.
Is it poor scouting or list management or draft position that puts us where we are? Maybe all of the above, would we all go mad if we traded up in the draft to get a tall and he doesn’t play for 2 years because he’s developing. I remember when the cats got Hawkins and there were all sorts of crap talked about him but he had time to develop and look now.

Anyway just wanted to say thanks for putting this together it’s great information.
 
Jen2310 said:
Yeah pretty underwhelming tbh
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There are a few guys I like, some more than others. In rough order of preference, with no consideration of likelihood:
  • Conor Nash - huge midfielder, but Irish players seem to stick with their clubs.
  • Mark O'Connor - versatile & athletic, but see above comment on the Irish.
  • Josh Battle - pretty decent KPD, works well as 2nd/3rd tall defender.
  • Dusty Martin - half for the lols, half to play him at FF for a season.
  • Liam Duggan - WC co-captain so no chance IMO, but can play mid & backline well.
  • Harry Perryman - similar to above, in leadership group & can play mid & backline.
  • Kamdyn McIntosh - we need more players who look like vaudeville villains.
  • Tim Membrey - marking third tall, but is old.
  • Jamaine Jones - lots of pace and has played both half forward & half back. Would be a punt.
 
The Royal Sampler said:
That’s an interesting take on the indigenous small forwards. Brad Dick could definitely play, he just didn’t have the body to hold up to AFL. Kayle Kirby could definitely play but had a cardiac issue.

We traded for Hill and picked up Krakouer during Hine’s tenure.

Was Brenden “The Big Show” Abbott indigenous? Because he could absolutely play.
Click to expand...

Kirby was lead and Mark player more then ground game (medhurst Elliott etc), same with Abbott who also looked to be able to become a decent hbf type.

Brad Dick was the closest he came to getting it right in the Davis, Krakeour, Bobby mould through the draft.

I'm not talking trading, I'm talking talent ID from a junior player with the specific skill set and attributes.

You also realise you just stated a list of players who didn't make it for what ever reasons.
It's still a failed pick. His successful hits were all traded in mature talents.
 
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loki04 said:
Kirby was lead and Mark player more then ground game (medhurst Elliott etc), same with Abbott who also looked to be able to become a decent hbf type.

Brad Dick was the closest he came to getting it right in the Davis, Krakeour, Bobby mould through the draft.

I'm not talking trading, I'm talking talent ID from a junior player with the specific skill set and attributes.

You also realise you just stated a list of players who didn't make it for what ever reasons.
It's still a failed pick. His successful hits were all traded in mature talents.
Click to expand...

You make some good points, and I’m not saying I disagree, just thinking out loud. ;)

Hine was also a fan of Blake Coleman (we bid on him, since delisted) and Phoenix Spicer (North nabbed him, looks a bust) in recent times.
 
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