Politics Communism - One More Try From Utopia?

[Moshie The Mook]

MOD EDIT: New thread started from breakaway discussion.

The problem with the left is life experience, or lack of.

Most of you still can't comprehend how Marxism failed.

I'll give you the hot tip, it is fundamentally flawed. Capitalism is built on the foundations of innovation, competition, and striving for perfection.

A vastly superior system to killing the prime producers, and then throwing into gulags anyone who objects to being starved to death.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

The problem with the left is life experience, or lack of.

Most of you still can't comprehend how Marxism failed.

I'll give you the hot tip, it is fundamentally flawed. Capitalism is built on the foundations of innovation, competition, and striving for perfection.

A vastly superior system to killing the prime producers, and then throwing into gulags anyone who objects to being starved to death.

I get that you may be new to politics, but we can still laugh at you for having such horrendous hot takes on the world. You should know that the political leaders on the right who get promoted these days are a joke. Don't look to them for an example of how society or politics are, or how they should be influenced. You're at step 1 or 2 of a 20 step process to understanding how the world actually works.

And - yes, that's condescending -but so was your post. And it was also wrong. So you did ask for a patronising reply.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

According to the political theory of Marxism–Leninism of the early 20th century, the kulaks were class enemies of the poorer peasants.[3] Vladimir Ilyich Lenin described them as "bloodsuckers, vampires, plunderers of the people and profiteers, who fatten on famine".[4][5] Marxism–Leninism had intended a revolution to liberate poor peasants and farm laborers alongside the proletariat (urban and industrial workers). In addition, the planned economy of Soviet Bolshevism required the collectivisation of farms and land to allow industrialisation or conversion to large-scale agricultural production. In practice, government officials violently seized kulak farms and killed resisters;[3][6] others were deported to labor camps.

These were the people who fed the Ukraine.

The top 1%.

The lefties wiped them out, and everyone starved.

 

[ShanDog]

hahaha.

The ****?

He's right you know. Communism is against fundamental human nature and is therefore fundamentally flawed.

Humans can only be communist within very small, tightly defined groups, such as a family. There's a biological imperative to be so.

Among larger society, everyone else is competition. By removing that competition in a communist framework, it is destined to fail. Those are the top will continue to be the 1% at the expense of the rest through (this time) overt oppression. Individuality is stifled, and nobody is inspired to achieve more than their required lot. If those in charge set the goals, the society can reach greater things, sure. But it relies on those in charge making all the right decisions, and the consequences of those decisions are magnified greatly in a communist society. Since when have we trusted those in charge to always make the right call?

Humans compete. That's what brings out the best in us. Take it away, and everything will crumble. Hell, in the supposed communist utopia, I have no doubt people will try to burn s**t down just for something different to happen.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

These were the people who fed the Ukraine.

The top 1%.

The lefties wiped them out, and everyone starved.

Jesus, you're doubling down aren't you?

 

[ShanDog]

Who is making an argument for communism?

I might as well have a 200 word melt about why Shaun Marsh gets favourable treatment. It's just as relevant.

You throwing out the 'We haven't seen real communism yet' card here?

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Humans compete. That's what brings out the best in us. Take it away, and everything will crumble.

This.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

You throwing out the 'We haven't seen real communism yet' card here?

How often do you hear the 'socialism has never been done right' line?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

You throwing out the 'We haven't seen real communism yet' card here?

Im throwing out the 'How does a thread explaining how Milo is a huckster diverge into a large melt about an system nobody was advocating?' card.

I haven't played it often, but Ive played it now.

 

[ShanDog]

Im throwing out the 'How does a thread explaining how Milo is a huckster diverge into a large melt about an system nobody was advocating?' card.

I haven't played it often, but Ive played it now.

Fair enough - start up a Marxism / Communism thread and I'll be there.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Fair enough - start up a Marxism / Communism thread and I'll be there.

Why? Both are failures.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

Im throwing out the 'How does a thread explaining how Milo is a huckster diverge into a large melt about an system nobody was advocating?' card.

I haven't played it often, but Ive played it now.

We have already established Milo is a rock star.

 

[ShanDog]

Why? Both are failures.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

We have already established Milo is a rock star.

Well yeah.

But there is a reason why we dont take Daniel Johns seriously either.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Milo is closer to Milli Vanilli or an X Factor contestant than Daniel Johns.

?

You get that Moshie looks like the sort of person who has no understanding of political theory and instead has seen a few hot takes online, right? KV mocks him for bringing up Marxism and then you and Moshie go on about why Marxism is a failure as KV continues to mock you (I criticised Moshie too). That's what just happened. Nothing else.

As he said - KV could suddenly decide you guys are really writing about Shaun Marsh and write posts about that. It would be about as relevant.

 

[ShanDog]

Milo is closer to Millie Vanilli or an X Factor contestant than Daniel Johns.

?

You get that Moshie looks like the sort of person who has no understanding of political theory and instead has seen a few hot takes online, right? KV mocks him for bringing up Marxism and then you and Moshie go on about why Marxism is a failure as KV continues to mock you (I criticised Moshie too). That's what just happened. Nothing else.

As he said - KV could suddenly decide you guys are really writing about Shaun Marsh and write posts about that. It would be about as relevant.

The gif is in response to what KV said, not as a 'I just won an argument' flaunt.

Haven't followed the conversation very closely. I saw someone bring up communism and I jumped on it. I ******* hate that vile ideology.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

The gif is in response to what KV said, not as a 'I just won an argument' flaunt.

Haven't followed the conversation very closely. I saw someone bring up communism and I jumped on it. I ******* hate that vile ideology.

It's anithetical to individual freedom.

IMO democratic socialism (think Bernie Sanders) is the furthest thing from communism.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

The gif is in response to what KV said, not as a 'I just won an argument' flaunt.

Haven't followed the conversation very closely. I saw someone bring up communism and I jumped on it. I ******* hate that vile ideology.

Ever spoken to anyone who lived under it? "Hate" & "vile" are strong words for something I'm guessing you aren't familiar with in detail. But of course, no-one is advocating for it. It's just dumb right-wingers looking to exaggerate extremely stupidly because suc a generalisation leads to an easy criticism.

 

[ShanDog]

Ever spoken to anyone who lived under it? "Hate" & "vile" are strong words for something I'm guessing you aren't familiar with in detail. But of course, no-one is advocating for it. It's just dumb right-wingers looking to exaggerate extremely stupidly because suc a generalisation leads to an easy criticism.

I'm pretty well read. Can recommend a few books if you like.

 

[yebiga]

You throwing out the 'We haven't seen real communism yet' card here?

We don't see much real free enterprise capitalism either. Im not sure any of us could define our system let alone communism.

Our economic illiteracy is the greatest cause of suffering in the world. This mass ignorance by populations throughout the Western wold hides unimaginable and inconceivable criminality. It is the cause of every war, every bomb dropped, every famine. it determines standards of living, culture, law, policy... It determines almost everything.

A nation who's citizens are economically ignorant are the victims of endless diversions - and never more that today. A plutocracy of billionaires and monster corporations run the economy our culture and politics. They pay for the Potemkin democracy which assuages our resentment and keeps us docile.

And we speak of Freedom!

 

[ShanDog]

We don't see much real free enterprise capitalism either. Im not sure any of us could define our system let alone communism.

Our economic illiteracy is the greatest cause of suffering in the world. This mass ignorance by populations throughout the Western wold hides unimaginable and inconceivable criminality. It is the cause of every war, every bomb dropped, every famine. it determines standards of living, culture, law, policy... It determines almost everything.

A nation who's citizens are economically ignorant are the victims of endless diversions - and never more that today. A plutocracy of billionaires and monster corporations run the economy our culture and politics. They pay for the Potemkin democracy which assuages our resentment and keeps us docile.

And we speak of Freedom!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big believer is fully fledged free market capitalism, especially the kind a few out there advocate that involves little to no regulation or taxpayer welfare. That's just as ludicrous IMO.

I think the rest of your post is true (even if a little over the top) but the question is what can be done about it? People are different. Not everyone has a particular interest or capacity to be economically well informed. The best we can hope for is benevolent people making the rules about it.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big believer is fully fledged free market capitalism, especially the kind a few out there advocate that involves little to no regulation or taxpayer welfare. That's just as ludicrous IMO.

I think the rest of your post is true (even if a little over the top) but the question is what can be done about it? People are different. Not everyone has a particular interest or capacity to be economically well informed. The best we can hope for is benevolent people making the rules about it.

You probably can recall the Dead Kennedy's song of 'Lets lynch the landlord' Yes?.....Substitute billionaire global Bankers & you have your answer.

Until these guys are brought under control by governments then we shall all be their slaves.....Globalism is all about enabling the Bankers as the Gods of reality....Trouble is, no one has the balls to take them on, & these guys have more than enough money, power & graft now, to buy most country's out, or bankrupt them at will.

There's your 'free-market' in action.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I'm pretty well read. Can recommend a few books if you like.

You appear to have missed the point. Have you ever spoken to someone who has lived in a Communist country? There are a lot of people who have and who now call Australia home. You may be surprised to find out they don't all find the system "vile".

You also will find people who have lived under dictators who aren't 'communist'. Indeed, some were right-wing. Some were benevolent. Some were not. And, as we see every week, there are plenty of people living in Democracies who claim their governments are corrupt, self-serving, lining pockets of mates, etc. And I'm not talking about the Russian propagandist types or conspiracy theorists above. Just everyday people making huge system-wide complaints despite never having a member of their family put under threat by a totalitarian. Instead, a road will be built with a timing of traffic lights they don't like, and suddenly it will be all about the 'corrupt' bureaucrats and how we need huge reforms.

Real life isn't black or white.

 

[ShanDog]

You appear to have missed the point. Have you ever spoken to someone who has lived in a Communist country? There are a lot of people who have and who now call Australia home. You may be surprised to find out they don't all find the system "vile".

You also will find people who have lived under dictators who aren't 'communist'. Indeed, some were right-wing. Some were benevolent. Some were not. And, as we see every week, there are plenty of people living in Democracies who claim their governments are corrupt, self-serving, lining pockets of mates, etc. And I'm not talking about the Russian propagandist types or conspiracy theorists above. Just everyday people making huge system-wide complaints despite never having a member of their family put under threat by a totalitarian. Instead, a road will be built with a timing of traffic lights they don't like, and suddenly it will be all about the 'corrupt' bureaucrats and how we need huge reforms.

Real life isn't black or white.

That's nice. Now having studied history, read about communism and have a working understanding of humanity and society, I deem communism to be completely at odds with human nature, ideals of individual liberty and the most dangerous social structure to modern life. Vile. Disgusting. I think the body count says about all we need to know about its dangers, but sure, "individual experiences may differ"...

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

That's nice. Now having studied history, read about communism and have a working understanding of humanity and society, I deem communism to be completely at odds with human nature, ideals of individual liberty and the most dangerous social structure to modern life. Vile. Disgusting. I think the body count says about all we need to know about its dangers, but sure, "individual experiences may differ"...

It's obvious to both of us and any other reader that the answer is 'no' you haven't spoken to someone about living under Communism. That's fine. I have. As I said, there are lots of these people all around you and you only need to get to know them.

And I've also "studied history, read about communism and have a working understanding of humanity and society". It appears you may have reduced 'communism' to being about everyone getting equal amounts, and probably having assigned jobs for life, while also conflating that with the massive famines, crushing of dissidents and horrendous errors of central planning that have been well documented in places like China and Russia. If you know Human nature as well as you claim, you would know full well that the generous tenants behind Communism are not at odds with it. You may have heard of religion, which centres largely around such generosity, and covers the majority of humans. The golden rule pre-dates even those major religions. Competition is only affordable with wealth, and wealth is something that has been out of reach of a lot of humans for a lot of human history.