Countering the Don't Argue

[SBD Gonzalez]

The fend off isn't something new, players rarely attempt it because to properly execute the fend off you actually need all the other components to actually be able to do it, Martin has all the ingredients needed to make it work so often, very rarely do you get a combination of pure brute strength, with explosive speed off a few steps and absolute core strength, one of the more memorable fend offs was the one where he injured the bomber players (forgot name is now at the doggies) shoulder while pushing off, that just shows you how much strength he is using to fend opponents, Martin has also been caught fending off, but his core strength allows him to standup in the tackle and still dish the ball off.

He's been doing it since his junior days and right throughout his AFL career.

There's no denying the good practitioners of the DA are very good at it and have all the necessary attributes. Martin being the most obvious current example. But I'm just raising the question of what the countering possibilities are because I don't believe none exist.

Mainly because it was drummed into me in my brief kung fu sojourn that a well-executed deflection and immediate follow-through could put paid to practically any offensive move, no matter how strong, big or balanced your opponent.

I never got far enough into the discipline to find out if this was actually true, or just PR BS to suck in skinny weaklings. I'd be interested to hear from martial arts practitioners who have some serious years under their (black) belt whether it is really the case.

 

[Tigers_fan24]

Nah, that only requires an extra $400K of Richmond's money to stop that from happening.

 

[Tigers_fan24]

What about doing this?

View attachment 414362

Sweep the leg

 

[Snake_Baker]

View attachment 414399

There is something definitely not right with you.

 

[copthat]

I just posted this in another thread specifically in regard to Martin but some of it is relevant generally so I'll post it here:

Those saying "just tackle him by the hips" - his hips/legs/arse are stronger than his fend off. Players literally just fall to the ground when they try to tackle him around the waist. Look at the Geelong player who attempted it before he hit Grigg in the square in the last quarter. He actually gets 2 hands on him around the hip area but the effect it had on Martin was akin to a light gust of wind.

Those saying "tackle him by the arm and destroy his shoulder" - a lot of the time his arm retracts faster than when he extends it to make contact with the chest, leaving you no time to grab it. It's also really hard to apply any strength to a tackle when you've got a hand on your chest and you're being forced backwards.

After watching him do it for the last 8 years, there's definitely a lot of technique involved (as opposed to just brute strength). Often he will wait until the would be tackler has one foot off the ground and then he fends them off as their centre of gravity is nowhere near optimal with only one foot on the ground (think his 'fly swat' on Tim Taranto in first GWS game this year)

The best way to counter it is to gang tackle. He has been caught many times this way, probably at least once a game this year. It's just that, as another poster alluded to earlier, he will often draw 2 or 3 tacklers and then suddenly we have 2 or 3 loose players on the outside of the stoppage. He shoots a handball out and we are away.

 

[Mningasimisonda]

So technically what's the difference between a don't argue and a strike to the body? Is it that you can hit someone in the chest if you have the ball?

Just asking seeing Duncan got 2 down to 1 and Dusty punches people in the chest every week.

It's not like he didn't hurt the opposition player in this one that was shown earlier in the thread.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Poke the campaigner in the eye.

 

[Jables]

Rioli-esque standing "chicken wing" (one arm grab wrist and twist)

Accept the dont argue, but grab the wrist, twist and fall, dragging the opponent with you. They cannot dispose other than kick, yet are off balance and falling over you so cant get boot to ball.

It needs to be in one motion to be truly effective, Rioli is just so fast with quick reactions and strength when someone tries to give him the don't argue. A born tackler, same with Puopolo.
With Martin people are worrying too much about where Martin is going to go as well that their attempts to tackle him are often subpar. Great tacklers can still deal with Martin, guys with less technique just get destroyed.

 

[copthat]

So technically what's the difference between a don't argue and a strike to the body? Is it that you can hit someone in the chest if you have the ball?

Just asking seeing Duncan got 2 down to 1 and Dusty punches people in the chest every week.

It's not like he didn't hurt the opposition player in this one that was shown earlier in the thread.

The difference is Martin is legally evading a tackler while Duncan is handing out a cheap shot behind play.

 

[Calcium Man]

So technically what's the difference between a don't argue and a strike to the body? Is it that you can hit someone in the chest if you have the ball?

Just asking seeing Duncan got 2 down to 1 and Dusty punches people in the chest every week.

It's not like he didn't hurt the opposition player in this one that was shown earlier in the thread.

is this a serious post?

 

[MightyTiger]

There's no denying the good practitioners of the DA are very good at it and have all the necessary attributes. Martin being the most obvious current example. But I'm just raising the question of what the countering possibilities are because I don't believe none exist.

Mainly because it was drummed into me in my brief kung fu sojourn that a well-executed deflection and immediate follow-through could put paid to practically any offensive move, no matter how strong, big or balanced your opponent.

I never got far enough into the discipline to find out if this was actually true, or just PR BS to suck in skinny weaklings. I'd be interested to hear from martial arts practitioners who have some serious years under their (black) belt whether it is really the case.

Luckily for us they don't employ kung fu tactics in AFL games.

 

[Mningasimisonda]

The difference is Martin is legally evading a tackler while Duncan is handing out a cheap shot behind play.

So players can evade tackles by punching people in the chest but not the neck or head?

It's legal to fend off or push off a player in a tackle, but that isn't what the footage shows. It shows him hit a player then the player holds his chest.

 

[DrMike]

Turn a player like Dustin Martin in to a predominately stationary handballer and his effectiveness greatly disappears.

Your comments are about as insightful as a suggestion to chop off his legs so he can't run

 

[DrMike]

So players can evade tackles by punching people in the chest but not the neck or head?

It's legal to fend off or push off a player in a tackle, but that isn't what the footage shows. It shows him hit a player then the player holds his chest.

Learn to football

You're not worth any more time than that comment

 

[Valixir]

Just use an ex rugby player..

 

[Cleavy]

if in doubt, RKO outta nowhere

 

[saintsrfreak]

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Luckily for us they don't employ kung fu tactics in AFL games.

Well, there's kung fu tactics like a kick to the throat, and there's kung fu tactics like I'm talking about, such as deflecting an outstretched arm and moving in to tackle in one movement.

 

[Upgrayedd]

So technically what's the difference between a don't argue and a strike to the body? Is it that you can hit someone in the chest if you have the ball?

Just asking seeing Duncan got 2 down to 1 and Dusty punches people in the chest every week.

It's not like he didn't hurt the opposition player in this one that was shown earlier in the thread.

Literally the most ******ed thing i've seen on bigfooty.

Like asking why is a guy allowed tackle players with the ball but you can't do that without the ball it's a free kick so why is it allowed to happen when a footballer happens to have the football.

 

[theyellowsash]

lots of very salty geelong and north melbourne posters in this thread. couldnt imagine why.

 

[Righteo]

Either try and grab the wrist with both hands and drag him down like a Judo exponent (chicken wing), or hit him with a second tackler. The fact he still does it at will after all these years should tell you how difficult it is to overcome.

OR you get really sneaky and drop the knees at the right moment, cop it right in the larynx and hope he's called for the high fend off. So injure him or risk injuring yourself basically.

 

[Hawk_francais]

As has been posted above, Rioli regularly catches people who try the 'don't argue'. He accepts the arm and just has incredible strength to take the player off balance. Dusty v Cyril would be fantastic to watch.

 

[KingNothing]

Literally the most ******ed thing i've seen on bigfooty.

Like asking why is a guy allowed tackle players with the ball but you can't do that without the ball it's a free kick so why is it allowed to happen when a footballer happens to have the football.

I think the salt is starting to effect his brain.

 

[Aramis]

Grab the arm he uses to fend you off, might not be an effective tackle but that split second you might buy should be enough to for the cavalry to arrive.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Rioli-esque standing "chicken wing" (one arm grab wrist and twist)

Accept the dont argue, but grab the wrist, twist and fall, dragging the opponent with you. They cannot dispose other than kick, yet are off balance and falling over you so cant get boot to ball.

Was the first played I thought of when I saw the thread.

Another. Grow finger nails. Instead of slipping off an oiled up arm, dig the claws into it and reef down.