Cyril Rioli v Andrew Walker

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

Rioli leading poll atm is quite a surprise..

...to those who don't watch football maybe

 

[Monkey King]

...to those who don't watch football maybe

Listening to Bruce getting his freak on is not watching football mate

 

[Hodgepodge]

On a case by case basis perhaps, but as a general statement Hurls was spot on. Fluffy fanboi narrative doesn't change that one bit.

It's also on a player by player basis.

Rioli's style is winning the hard ball and assisting his teammates, which is why he averages 47% of his possessions contested and led the comp in average goal assists last year.

Averages are a p/game affair. If you want to statistically assess a SEASON you'll need the season totals.

That's only true to the point where the player doesn't play enough games to have any sort of impact on a season. I haven't based my opinion only on averages, after all Rioli is also 3rd in total goal assists.

Another point against this totalitarian thinking is that Walker's higher total with 5 extra games can be accrued with any sort of performance, good or poor, so attributing the season only to totals is a kind of a wishful argument.

This is why Ablett is still regarded the best or second best ball winner in the comp despite finishing only 11th in total disposals. It's a combination of totals and averages.

Rioli's case is even more convincing, finishing higher in his pet stat with fewer games still.

He's clearly the best assist player in the comp, and probably the best small forward as well.

 

[Monkey King]

It's also on a player by player basis.

Rioli's style is winning the hard ball and assisting his teammates, which is why he averages 47% of his possessions contested and led the comp in average goal assists last year.

It seems to me you just want to say that for Rioli in particular, goal assists are equal to or better goals themselves. Why am I not surprised

It's like every stat in football; contested possessions are generally deemed more valuable than uncontested, or kicks better than handballs, yet on a case-by-case, or even player-by-player basis this isn't necessarily true. Same with stats against top 8 sides (a favourite of yours), they aren't necessarily any better than those against bottom 8 sides, but generally, it's accepted otherwise.

This phenomenon runs across the entire spectrum of stats, yet you seem only interested in pointing out this limitation now it suits your argument; otherwise you're quite happy to run with the general assessment. A very obvious bias to anyone familiar with your posting history.

That's only true to the point where the player doesn't play enough games to have any sort of impact on a season. I haven't based my opinion only on averages, after all Rioli is also 3rd in total goal assists.

Season performance is about season output, not p/game performance.

It couldn't be any more simple than that.

 

[Hodgepodge]

It's like every stat in football; contested possessions are generally deemed more valuable than uncontested, or kicks better than handballs, yet on a case-by-case, or even player-by-player basis this isn't necessarily true.

Might not always be the case over a season, yet an outstanding accompanying stat is required for handballs to be worth more than kicks in that timeframe.

For example, usually an elite clearance contested possession player will be a handballer. I'm thinking of Matt Priddis.

This phenomenon runs across the entire spectrum of stats, yet you seem only interested in pointing out this limitation now it suits your argument

Not really, the ranking of assists in this case is more to do with the possession itself, contested possession over uncontested.

i.e. Walker receives handball over the top for an uncontested goal < contested ball won by Rioli, handball over the top to free player for a goal.

Season performance is about season output, not p/game performance.

It couldn't be any more simple than that.

That's a pretty absolute view. Do you now believe that Jordan Lisle performed better over 2011 than Lenny Hayes? On your view of totals you would have Lisle starting in the Brisbane midfield this year . . .

 

[Mitchell Madness]

way different players

hawthorns game plan allows for rioli to have 10-15 touches, and he has better skills then walker (and most other footballers) meaning he doesn't require any more

walker is a player you'd have as a main option in the middle, rioli isn't

in other words, close call, at hawthorn, our current midfield means walker would be relegated to a flank and be ineffective.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Walker plays tall but can also do what Rioli does at ground level.

I don't have an issue with you picking Walker, but I have an issue with this. I have heard you say some weird stuff on this site about Hawthorn players but this one takes the cake ^ You think Walker can do what Rioli does at ground level?? Lol.

 

[Monkey King]

i.e. Walker receives handball over the top for an uncontested goal < contested ball won by Rioli, handball over the top to free player for a goal.

And this goes for every stat in football. But unless you can quantify each of Rioli/Walker's respective goals and goal assists in this way, it's a moot point. Generally speaking, goals are much, MUCH more valuable than assists. You can do all the hard work you describe and assist little more than a point; ultimately it's the guy who kicks the goal that makes it a goal assist and adds value to the stat.

Simply claiming Rioli's goal assists are unique in that they all equal or better other's goals is hardly worth responding to.

That's a pretty absolute view. Do you now believe that Jordan Lisle performed better over 2011 than Lenny Hayes? On your view of totals you would have Lisle starting in the Brisbane midfield this year . . .

Yes. An absolute view based on sound analytical method, as opposed to wanting statistics to say things they don't.

Not sure what the ridiculous example above has to do with anything. Firstly, what does last year have to do with this year? As a midfielder, Ed Curnow clearly had a better season than Hayes, does that mean he should be in AA contention before Hayes for 2012? Derp derp! What exactly do you think midfield position has to do with who had a better season anyway? Cloke for example had a better season than Curnow - does that mean he should be played in a midfield position in 2012?

Could you possibly make any less sense

 

[Monkey King]

You think Walker can do what Rioli does at ground level?? Lol.

Neither can do what the other can at ground level. Walker definitely has the better motor and is probably faster over 20m, while Cyril would have him in the agility/evasiveness stakes and is probably quicker over the first 5m.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Neither can do what the other can at ground level. Walker definitely has the better motor and is probably faster over 20m, while Cyril would have him in the agility/evasiveness stakes and is probably quicker over the first 5m.

2007 Draft camp 6 x 30m repeat sprints.

1. Chris Kangars 23.59 secs
2. Patrick Dangerfield 23.96 sec
3. Cyril Rioli 24.01 sec
4. Lachlan Hall 24.08 sec
5. Haelen Kay 24.17 sec
6. David Gourdis 24.22 sec
7. Levi Greenwood 24.22 sec
8. Brendan Whitecross 24.25 sec
9. Chris Mayne 24.37 sec
10. Joel Smouha 24.48 sec

Rioli has gotten a lot quicker since then as well. I don't understand how you can think Andrew Walker is quicker than Rioli over 20 metres. Rioli is near on the quickest player at Hawthorn and is our best one on one player by a country mile once the ball hits the deck. The fact is, Walker is nowhere near Rioli when it comes to ground level skills, no matter how much spin you try to put on it.
​

 

[Monkey King]

Rioli has gotten a lot quicker since then as well. I don't understand how you can think Andrew Walker is quicker than Rioli over 20 metres. Rioli is near on the quickest player at Hawthorn and is our best one on one player by a country mile once the ball hits the deck. The fact is, Walker is nowhere near Rioli when it comes to ground level skills, no matter how much spin you try to put on it.

Much to your chagrin it may be, but Walker is indeed superior to Rioli in some facets of ground level work, while not in others. This is just a fact. Overall I'd agree that Rioli's ground work is better, but Walker is no slouch once the ball is on the deck. Your one-sided take doesn't leave much room for anything other than fapping over Cyril.

As for the 6x30m sprints, you are aware this does not correlate to 20m sprints right? And they didn't even run these when Walker was at draft camp, so with no ability to compare it's beyond meaningless. I'd say Walker would have excelled at this test given his pace and endurance.

The fact is neither Rioli or Walker placed top 10 in 20m sprints at draft camp. Perhaps I was a little over eager with my statement, but I did say PROBABLY and certainly it would be closer than you think going by your definitive comments. One thing is for sure though, if they went on a run, Walker would be in front before they hit 100m and Cyril wouldn't get near him from that point.

 

[mark121]

Rioli, Sydney need to fill both positions but the pressure he adds to the opposition defence and midfield causes mistakes even when he is nowhere near them. No one is safe from Rioli who tackles anyone who gets in his way even when the oposition player is almost twice his size.

These qualities i believe set him apart from the rest of the competition and i strugle to think of a player who offers the qualities he does. The problem holding Rioli back are his hamstrings but its being worked on at Hawthorn and if they can fix it then he should become one of the premiere midfielders of the game.

 

[Hodgepodge]

And this goes for every stat in football. But unless you can quantify each of Rioli/Walker's respective goals and goal assists in this way, it's a moot point.

That would be if I were claiming that every assist is more valuable than every goal, which I'm not. Over a spread of about 30 assists and 30 goals, I would rank Rioli's assists ahead of an equal number of Andrew Walker's goals.

Yes, the goal assist does require a goalkicker, otherwise it's just an assist. What does this mean other than that only about half of a player's assists will be goal assists?

Yes. An absolute view based on sound analytical method, as opposed to wanting statistics to say things they don't.

Right, so by this sound analytical method you would be compelled to adjudge Lisle a better ballwinner in 2011 than Lenny Hayes. So you see how you've painted yourself into a corner with simple logic.

Not sure what the ridiculous example above has to do with anything. Firstly, what does last year have to do with this year? As a midfielder, Ed Curnow clearly had a better season than Hayes, does that mean he should be in AA contention before Hayes for 2012?

The example is Jordan Lisle. Curnow flies too close to Hayes' average to represent your view on totals alone.

The example presumes the list is being compiled only on recent form. The point being that you would have Jordan Lisle in better recent form than Lenny Hayes.

 

[Chewy]

I just dont get the Rioli hype, seriously what has he done since 2008, other than the odd spectacular game.

I don't understand why people are so hard on a kid who has done so well in his first four seasons despite being held back because of repeated hamstring injuries and an OP scare

Fairdinkum, people who knock Rioli's production need to wake up to themselves


2009 Crimmins Medal

1. Sam Mitchell (170)
2. Cyril Rioli (123)
3. Lance Franklin (121)
4. Brad Sewell (113)


2010 Crimmins Medal

1. Luke Hodge (167)
2. Lance Franklin (122)
3. Sam Mitchell (112)
4. Cyril Rioli (110)


Rioli finished 6th in the 2008 B&F and 8th in the 2011 B&F
His first 4 seasons: 6th - 2nd - 4th - 8th


After 8 years in the system, Walker finishes 6th in Carlton's B&F and Blues fans think he's a superstar

He doesnt kick enough goals to be an elite forward and doesnt get the ball enough to be an elite mid.

The times when Cyril Rioli had a clear run with injury and was used in the starting midfield rotation, he racked up possession tallies in the high 20's. As a forward, he has been Hawthorn's leading set-up & assist player. I don't think there are any worries about his ability around goals or finding the ball. I'm sure he'll get more 'handball receives' once he builds his endurance to the expected level of a seasoned player. Like I said earlier, he has been held back thus far because of injuries. Hawthorn have been conservative in their handling of him because of his undoubted talent. Why wreck his career by pushing him too hard? His best days are ahead of him.

Here are the top drafted players who are roughly the same age as Cyril - 2007: Kreuzer, Cotchin, Masten, Morton, Grant, Myers, Palmer, Henderson, McEvoy, Dangerfield, Ebert, Grimes, Ward, Greenwood. 2008: Watts, Natanui, Hill, Hartlett, Hurley, Yarran, Rich, Vickery, Davis, Ziebell, Sidebottom, Johnston, Shuey, Zaharakis, Trengrove, Suban, Redden

I wouldn't class any of these players as "elite" just yet. Not to compare players, but just to point out how they're all still works in progress.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

I don't understand why people are so hard on a kid who has done so well in his first four seasons despite being held back because of repeated hamstring injuries and an OP scare

Fairdinkum, people who knock Rioli's production need to wake up to themselves


2009 Crimmins Medal

1. Sam Mitchell (170)
2. Cyril Rioli (123)
3. Lance Franklin (121)
4. Brad Sewell (113)


2010 Crimmins Medal

1. Luke Hodge (167)
2. Lance Franklin (122)
3. Sam Mitchell (112)
4. Cyril Rioli (110)


Rioli finished 6th in the 2008 B&F and 8th in the 2011 B&F
His first 4 seasons: 6th - 2nd - 4th - 8th


After 8 years in the system, Walker finishes 6th in Carlton's B&F and Blues fans think he's a superstar


The times when Cyril Rioli had a clear run with injury and was used in the starting midfield rotation, he racked up possession tallies in the high 20's. As a forward, he has been Hawthorn's leading set-up & assist player. I don't think there are any worries about his ability around goals or finding the ball. I'm sure he'll get more 'handball receives' once he builds his endurance to the expected level of a seasoned player. Like I said earlier, he has been held back thus far because of injuries. Hawthorn have been conservative in their handling of him because of his undoubted talent. Why wreck his career by pushing him too hard? His best days are ahead of him.

Here are the top drafted players who are roughly the same age as Cyril - 2007: Kreuzer, Cotchin, Masten, Morton, Grant, Myers, Palmer, Henderson, McEvoy, Dangerfield, Ebert, Grimes, Ward, Greenwood. 2008: Watts, Natanui, Hill, Hartlett, Hurley, Yarran, Rich, Vickery, Davis, Ziebell, Sidebottom, Johnston, Shuey, Zaharakis, Trengrove, Suban, Redden

I wouldn't class any of these players as "elite" just yet. Not to compare players, but just to point out how they're all still works in progress.

This whole post pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Best and fairests are a useless comparison IMO. It is fundamentally flawed that you can use a club based award to compare players based solely on their performance in such awards when Walker can't win Hawthorn's and Rioli cannot win Carlton's.

 

[hawkman]

Is it just me or does it seem like every time HP comes into a poll thread to post stats to support a Hawthorn player, more people start voting for the other player.

Sometimes it is better to just keep quiet

 

[Hodgepodge]

Have a look at what Walker did when he moved into the forward line...he kicked 62 goals and averaged only 1.8 marks inside the forward 50. Rioli kicked 29 goals whilst averaging 1.3 marks inside forward 50.

You're comparing totals to averages. Rookie mistake.

 

[Hodgepodge]

mate seriously....couldn't give a stuff what you have to say to try your best at persuading my decision.

I have no interest in changing your opinion, but you DO realise that comparing totals against averages is a completely empty excercise, right?

2011 he showed what he can achieve and it's substantially greater than anything Rioli has achieved in his short career thus far.

Rioli averaged more than Walker in just about every stat, including contested possessions, tackles, clearances, DE%, goal assists, possessions, 1%ers, rebound50s, inside50s and finished 13 points ahead in Champion Data averages.

You're welcome to your opinion that Walker had the better season, but how did you come to the conclusion that Walker's year was substantially better than Rioli's?

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

I have no interest in changing your opinion, but you DO realise that comparing totals against averages is a completely empty excercise, right?



Rioli averaged more than Walker in just about every stat, including contested possessions, tackles, clearances, DE%, goal assists, possessions, 1%ers, rebound50s, inside50s and finished 13 points ahead in Champion Data averages.

You're welcome to your opinion that Walker had the better season, but how did you come to the conclusion that Walker's year was substantially better than Rioli's?

I wouldn't take that much notice of what he says. If you look on the lists board in overrated players thread, he has said 70% of neutrals would prefer young Brown over a young Franklin. Which is close to the strangest thing I have ever heard anyone say about football full stop, considering in the who would you want @ your club thread below, Franklin is the most sought after player in the whole comp by some way according ot BF.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=880552&page=9

He also said that Rioli is the most overrated player in the league etc etc. He obviously doesn't rate anyone at Hawthorn highly. He doesn't like Hawthorn.

 

[Brown n Gold]

I don't mind you disagreeing mate but when I said Walker can do what Rioli can do at ground level, why is it so unbelievable in your eyes?

Have a look at what Walker did when he moved into the forward line...he kicked 62 goals and averaged only 1.8 marks inside the forward 50. Rioli kicked 29 goals whilst averaging 1.3 marks inside forward 50.
They basically had the same amount of uncontested possessions as well and that highlights how good Walker was on the ground and it also shows that Rioli had more set shots for goal per goal/behind scored.

If you think it's ridiculous, just wait until the pre-season/real stuff begins and you'll notice just how deadly Walker is around goals.
He can also jump which is something Rioli cannot do. I'm not suggesting Walker is the better player but I do believe Walker gives you more as a player with the ability to take a key defender or he can be switched across the half back flank and not be caught out.

Rioli cannot jump??

[YOUTUBE]ETp3a22a-Ls[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Monkey King]

... it's very hard to find players who are 6ft 2 who can outjump the bigger defenders but can also outrun the best middle sized defenders in the game and he does that on a weekly basis.

Very well put. This is one of Walkers real strengths.

 

[maryjames]

Rioli cannot jump??

[youtube]ETp3a22a-Ls[/youtube]

Yep he definitely can't jump.. Got up about a foot. When was this 4 years ago?

 

[Monkey King]

Yep he definitely can't jump.. Got up about a foot. When was this 4 years ago?

No kidding. His knee barely got hip high.

 

[Brown n Gold]

LOL look at the 2 hater flogs bagging a little man running backwards & sideways jumping over the top of a guy who is 6'4