Injury Dawson Simpson - back surgery

[Vdubs]

Re: Simpson back operation

Blake will possibly miss another premiers because he was too lazy to work harder
He over estimated his ability

The issue now is if the O and west both go down
A rookie ruck now looks like it would have been essential

A rookie ruck?? What do we call Ryan Bathie? Same height if not taller than West and Vardy. Has been in defence because we had too many other ruck options.

And if we keep getting injuries, maybe we fall back with the pack, so be it, that's the cost of finishing #1 every year over 5 yrs, you can't allow for everything with a socialistic draft. I still think we have enough on our list to still be really ruck competitive. After all, we made finals some years back with Mooney virtually our best ruck option. And of course, he's gone too.

We've chronologically lost Mumford, Blake, Mooney, Ottens, and now Vardy and Simpson are injured. Impossible to plan for any better than what we've done.

 

[JUBJUB]

Re: Simpson back operation

Blake will possibly miss another premiers because he was too lazy to work harder
He over estimated his ability

FFS let it go you moron.He's gone and you still bitch like a little school girl about him.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Re: Simpson back operation

MED,

For one thing Vardy's no ruck, to fragile. He's a keypost tall.
They'll wreck him in the ruck, that's if they haven't already.

He can pinch hit in the ruck and will be asked to as he continues to mature. We have tall forwards aplenty now and Vardy simply has too much talent to spend as much time developing in the twos as Simpson and West did. So he'll get in where he fits in.

Dawson might be worse than we're being told, or they might be just hoping, a back vertebrae doesn't inspire me with confidence, especially when the guy hadn't broken into senior football on merit even before, not just by club desparation!

Simpson is still not 23. The list of ruckmen in recent times who have made any sort of lasting impact at a younger age than that is a very short one. Goldstein seemed to come out of nowhere this year; he's 23 years old. Dean Cox didn't start making his mark until he was 23 or 24. Sandilands and Lade weren't dominant forces until their mid 20s. Mark Jamar started blossoming at 26. Trent West was in his sixth year on Geelong's list in 2011; Simpson starts his fifth season with the Cats in 2012 and has looked quite competent in his previous senior appearances.

West isn't a number 1 but obviously will try, but I reckon it's pathetic that this guy Orren Stephenson is expected to take on the likes of Nicknat, Jolley and the like.

Did you see Jolly last year? I'd back West and Stephenson against him and Wood (or whoever) in 2012, every day of the week. So our ruckmen might battle against West Coast. I don't think we're alone there.

Poor previous selections and foresight by the recruitment people including Sir Stephen Wells, IMO has created this silly situation.
Never worries about chasing quality talls, has been spoiled with the Abletts and Bartells over the years, now we're so light on it's a joke.

Easy to make such sweeping generalisations. Slightly tougher to find instances of the recruiting department clearly making the wrong decision in taking a small over a tall (considering just last year we had Ottens, Blake, West, Simpson, Vardy and Hawkins on our list and used all, besides Blake, as ruckmen in 2011).

 

[vinum coupe]

Re: Simpson back operation

MED,

For one thing Vardy's no ruck, to fragile. He's a keypost tall.
They'll wreck him in the ruck, that's if they haven't already.

Dawson might be worse than we're being told, or they might be just hoping, a back vertebrae doesn't inspire me with confidence, especially when the guy hadn't broken into senior football on merit even before, not just by club desparation!

West isn't a number 1 but obviously will try, but I reckon it's pathetic that this guy Orren Stephenson is expected to take on the likes of Nicknat, Jolley and the like. Poor previous selections and foresight by the recruitment people including Sir Stephen Wells, IMO has created this silly situation.
Never worries about chasing quality talls, has been spoiled with the Abletts and Bartells over the years, now we're so light on it's a joke.

Orren should put his hand out for a pay rise, even before the season starts!

I really dont know what you're on about Meto.

Just 8 months ago we didn't need anymore rucks.

Wells took a ruck in the draft. And it may be our saving grace that he took a mature age player. Name a kid he could have taken? Even better, name one he could have taken that could also fill a role this year.

 

[meto]

Re: Simpson back operation

MED+VC,

Yeah you both make good points, but I carn't help but think Wells has recruited some pretty frail bodies over the last few years for all the praise thats heaped!

 

[catswhiskers]

Re: Simpson back operation

We've had a thin spread of talls for years, this amplifys the issue.

We had "too many" rucks as recently as last year. Ottens was playing number one when it was the vogue that one ruck would do and pinch hitting (see c'wood in grand final) would suffice. Not so.

In the twos we had Blake, Vardy , West, Bathie, Simpson at least and the discussion was about how a young ruckman could learn if he couldn't play in the ruck.

Now we have injuries and retirements.

Fortunately West is up and about and Stephenson ( now an obvious choice) comes highly recommended by VFL watchers.

Its not panic time- its January. One of Vardy or Simpson will be available sooner rather than later and Bathie (who I would l love to see) may be called on to help out.

Lonergan in the ruck? Why rob Peter?

 

[meto]

Re: Simpson back operation

Why Geelong supporters constantly name the likes of Vardy, Bathie, Hawkins and Lonergan, even West as rucks is beyond me.
Blake and Ottens are gone, no good including their names now. I'm talking pure ruckman, like nicknat and Cox.
We haven't got one part from Stevo. Question is, he's on his own and is he out of his depth?
Hope not.

 

[The rabbi]

Re: Simpson back operation

MED+VC,

Yeah you both make good points, but I carn't help but think Wells has recruited some pretty frail bodies over the last few years for all the praise thats heaped!

Hindsight comes with 20/20 vision.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Re: Simpson back operation

Why Geelong supporters constantly name the likes of Vardy, Bathie, Hawkins and Lonergan, even West as rucks is beyond me.

Because with the sub rule, you can not play two ruckmen who are unable to go forward and be effective. That's why there simply wasn't a spot for Mark Blake in the AFL (not just Geelong) from 2011 onward. One specialist ruck, maybe; two and you'll be exposed. Cox and Naitanui may be two of the best five ruckmen going around, but both have the ability to sit in the goalsquare for an extended period and kick 3-4, or even play for a bit as a tall midfielder. Having a player like West or Vardy (who, admittedly needs to put on a few kgs) isn't just a satisfactory option in 2012, it's a vital one.

Who would have considered Jarryd Roughead a possible ruck option for Hawthorn, until he was thrown there out of necessity, due to Hawthorn's injury list last year? It took him about ten minutes to establish himself as Hawthorn's best ruckman, despite being only 193cm.

 

[Vdubs]

Re: Simpson back operation

Because with the sub rule, you can not play two ruckmen who are unable to go forward and be effective. That's why there simply wasn't a spot for Mark Blake in the AFL (not just Geelong) from 2011 onward. One specialist ruck, maybe; two and you'll be exposed. Cox and Naitanui may be two of the best five ruckmen going around, but both have the ability to sit in the goalsquare for an extended period and kick 3-4, or even play for a bit as a tall midfielder. Having a player like West or Vardy (who, admittedly needs to put on a few kgs) isn't just a satisfactory option in 2012, it's a vital one.

Who would have considered Jarryd Roughead a possible ruck option for Hawthorn, until he was thrown there out of necessity, due to Hawthorn's injury list last year? It took him about ten minutes to establish himself as Hawthorn's best ruckman, despite being only 193cm.

Slightly off topic, but that's why I really rate NM's chances of improving this year with a midfield of Goldstein, McIntosh, (both excellent rucks who go forward), and Swallow, Ziebell, Adams, Bastinac, Cunnington, Greenwood, Atley, Speight, Harper, and of course Wells all able to be effective runners/mids.

 

[catswhiskers]

Re: Simpson back operation

Why Geelong supporters constantly name the likes of Vardy, Bathie, Hawkins and Lonergan, even West as rucks is beyond me.
Blake and Ottens are gone, no good including their names now. I'm talking pure ruckman, like nicknat and Cox.
We haven't got one part from Stevo. Question is, he's on his own and is he out of his depth?
Hope not.

Keep your eye on West. It may have taken him time (maybe because others got their gig first) but he has all the attributes. Nic Nat. is a gun. He is 201cm and can jump. West is 199 cm and from what i have seen he can jump too. He can also bustle a bigger opponent. Watch the finals again. Watch how he gets around or jumps on opponents.

West is a good match up against this sort of player (nic nat) and has lots of upside. Cox is over 30. injuries await. Just need someone to wear him out.

I worry more about Stephenson. I hope others are correct in their assessment. If he steps up it will another win for good planning by the club.

No-one really reckons Lonergan or Hawkins (any more)will ruck. Vardy has the potential to do what Nic Nat does now, but will never be the No.1.

Last time I looked Blake had left - no longer an option.

I hope Stephenson is a revelation. Bathie same. Can't wait for the NAB cup.

 

[meto]

Re: Simpson back operation

Because with the sub rule, you can not play two ruckmen who are unable to go forward and be effective. That's why there simply wasn't a spot for Mark Blake in the AFL (not just Geelong) from 2011 onward. One specialist ruck, maybe; two and you'll be exposed. Cox and Naitanui may be two of the best five ruckmen going around, but both have the ability to sit in the goalsquare for an extended period and kick 3-4, or even play for a bit as a tall midfielder. Having a player like West or Vardy (who, admittedly needs to put on a few kgs) isn't just a satisfactory option in 2012, it's a vital one.

Who would have considered Jarryd Roughead a possible ruck option for Hawthorn, until he was thrown there out of necessity, due to Hawthorn's injury list last year? It took him about ten minutes to establish himself as Hawthorn's best ruckman, despite being only 193cm.

A smaller ruck can almost double as an oversized midfielder and can help with the in and under, we had one in Ottens but he was 202cm, no wonder we'll miss him. How many times he won the ball on the ground was amazing for a guy his size.
Roughy did well enough, but remember what happened to him?
Would it have happened if he was at CHF? Probably not!

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Re: Simpson back operation

Roughy did well enough, but remember what happened to him?
Would it have happened if he was at CHF? Probably not!

Really? The injury Roughead sustained could just as easily have happened in the goalsquare, or during a training drill. The position he was playing had nothing to do with it.

 

[_Me_]

Re: Simpson back operation

FFS let it go you moron.He's gone and you still bitch like a little school girl about him.

So veedubs go first today

How is your theory going, hat by the time he is 27 he will be better than otto just like his old man

 

[Pure_Ownage]

By having two ruckmen, earmarked for senior duties, having surgery in the preseason. You show me a team which can afford to have two ruckmen with senior experience on the shelf, without a significant strain on its depth and I'll show you a team that probably has too many ruckmen on its list. We only have four ruckmen on our list, but critically, they are four AFL-ready ruckmen, we don't have any eighteen year old stick insects.

It all comes back to Ottens' decision to retire, which, while not altogether surprising, was not a certainty. Probably the most damaging aspect of this (though I'm not blaming Ottens), was that it came after Mark Blake had announced his retirement. If the Ottens retirement had happened before Blake made a decision, I wouldn't have been surprised to see the Cats sign Blake for one more year (possibly as a rookie). Whether they would have also drafted Stephenson in that scenario is debatable, as they obviously wouldn't have had the list space to make all the selections they did. Let's say we made a decision between Blake and Stephenson (I'm guessing Blake probably would have rejected a rookie list position). That left us with:

West
Simpson
Vardy
Stephenson/Blake

Ok, so in hindsight, five ruckmen would have been better than four, given our current predicament, but which player are we willing to boot off our senior list to facilitate this? The bottom line is if you have four AFL-calibre ruckmen on your list, you should be fine depth-wise 95% of the time. If West or Stephenson goes down, we'll just have to improvise. Vardy's progress is critical; we need him available for AFL selection (i.e. getting a couple of VFL games under his belt) by the end of the first month. And if we get an injury to one of our currently healthy ruckmen before Vardy or Simpson is good to return, well...that's pretty unlucky. We'll just have to go with the best option, as the club sees it.

Very good summary. The injures in this area are unlucky but once Orren was recruited, we weren't light on. There is only so much cover you can have in the ruck position and any club with two good rucks injured will be light on in the short term, with limited list sizes that's how it is.

I really dont know what you're on about Meto.

Just 8 months ago we didn't need anymore rucks.

Wells took a ruck in the draft. And it may be our saving grace that he took a mature age player. Name a kid he could have taken? Even better, name one he could have taken that could also fill a role this year.

Precisely. 8 months ago we had so many rucks we had a VFL forward line that was the land of the giants (and this had a negative effect on how it functioned at times) and we were forced to send guys like Walker back as there was no room for them anywhere else.

Now, after our retirements, we took the best ready made player to ensure our depth was still good. No one can name anyone else we could have taken other or in addition to Orren who would have provided significantly better ruck depth than what we had. Dawson's injury was unfortunate, but it doesn't mean our planning was poor.

 

[meto]

PO,

The VFL team may have had a few to many fwd talls due to finding a game for Blake, West and Vardy with Brown occassionally playing and Walker.

But I'd hardly classify the last three as rucks when talking about our ruck stocks, so lets confine the dicussion to rucks, not tall keypost players.
Walker has never and will never be a ruck, crumbs he wasn't even that at the Falcons, so why mention him in relation to our ruck delimma.
But one thing I do know, Orren has become our most valuable draft choice.

 

[you pick one]

Re: Simpson back operation

MED,

For one thing Vardy's no ruck, to fragile. He's a keypost tall.
They'll wreck him in the ruck, that's if they haven't already.

Interesting statement, following on from my post in another thread if your looking at whether or not Vardy has the physical attributes to be a ruckman and using the Cats web site for information,198cm and 96 kgs then your 3 years behind the times,he was seventeen then and his details have never been up dated.

He won't have got any shorter thats for sure and could possible have grown a cm or two and be pushing 100/102 kgs.

 

[Vdubs]

Re: Simpson back operation

So veedubs go first today

How is your theory going, hat by the time he is 27 he will be better than otto just like his old man

Deep down, you are really annoyed that Blake has departed, that you can't blame him any more, that you have no reason to castigate him any more, or are you now harbouring grudges because he is gone in our time of need?
My "theory" was a hope, in his defence, and due to all the flak he has copped on this board, unjustifiably, and now he can enjoy his life away from the microscope of hypocritical "supporters" and enjoy his premiership medallion, and that he played 99 games during which time Geelong has been regarded by some as the greatest of all time. He contributed to that. How do you stack up as a supporter.?
AMEN.

Better than Otto, just like his old man was not my theory, but I had hoped he would take over #1 ruck duties when Ottens was ready to retire

 

[Pure_Ownage]

PO,

The VFL team may have had a few to many fwd talls due to finding a game for Blake, West and Vardy with Brown occassionally playing and Walker.

But I'd hardly classify the last three as rucks when talking about our ruck stocks, so lets confine the dicussion to rucks, not tall keypost players.
Walker has never and will never be a ruck, crumbs he wasn't even that at the Falcons, so why mention him in relation to our ruck delimma.
But one thing I do know, Orren has become our most valuable draft choice.

Of course Walker wasn't a ruck and won't be. He was however a forward and a good one) for the Falcons and ended up going back with us a) because we were thin there and b) because in the early stages of 2011 at times we had Blake Simpson West and Vardy (mostly just three of them but at times all four until Blake had finger surgery) to fit into a forward line, which illustrates we were definitely light on for talls in general and rucks in particular, if anything we were overstocked.

Now the sub rule killed Blake which wasn't something we could control, Otto decided to put his feet up after 3 premierships which is something we couldn't control (and even though we couldn't we tried everything to talk him into playing on). Vardy's injury wasn't something that could have been easily predicted and hence prevented, and by what we know up to now, neither was Dawson's. In the meantime West has blossomed into quite a good ruckman and the way he's been managed in the VFL has given him the perfect versatility for the new sub rule, and we've only had to spend pick 78 of all things to get ourselves a ruck partner for him in round 1. Tell me who was available and is a better player at a lower cost than that?

Sure we are a bit thin now because of injuries, but it's bad luck and largely beyond our control, we definitely haven't managed our ruck stocks badly.

I agree with your last line, Orren is our most critical of the draftees as far as the chances of winning the flag in 2012 are concerned.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Geez this is not good. Really don't want us getting into a situation like Hawks were in last year. Thank god we drafted Stevo.

Have we got anything else on the list? Don't want Hawkins rucking either but not going to have much choice if West or Stevo go down now early in the year.

 

[thejester]

Geez this is not good. Really don't want us getting into a situation like Hawks were in last year. Thank god we drafted Stevo.

Have we got anything else on the list? Don't want Hawkins rucking either but not going to have much choice if West or Stevo go down now early in the year.

Bathie rotates into the ruck in the VFL. Got a prodigious leap for a bloke his size, but not sure he'd be much chop at senior level. Still, desperate times etc.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Geez this is not good. Really don't want us getting into a situation like Hawks were in last year. Thank god we drafted Stevo.

Have we got anything else on the list? Don't want Hawkins rucking either but not going to have much choice if West or Stevo go down now early in the year.

Bathie can actually ruck as jester said, is basically the same height as West and can really leap. Still lost the opposing ruckman in traffic a lot as he's learning how to read the game, was much much better at CHB with almost everything in front of him, and the problem is while we have short term ruck issues, long term we have three good young ruckmen whereas we only have Gillies as a young key defender, so it really makes no sense to shift Bathie from the backline when he's doing very well there and much better than he did in the ruck. Likewise Hawkins when he's finally doing well as a forward.

We just need Stephenson and West to stay fit, we really do.

 

[you pick one]

Bathie can actually ruck as jester said, is basically the same height as West and can really leap. Still lost the opposing ruckman in traffic a lot as he's learning how to read the game, was much much better at CHB with almost everything in front of him, and the problem is while we have short term ruck issues, long term we have three good young ruckmen whereas we only have Gillies as a young key defender, so it really makes no sense to shift Bathie from the backline when he's doing very well there and much better than he did in the ruck. Likewise Hawkins when he's finally doing well as a forward.

We just need Stephenson and West to stay fit, we really do.[/quote]


17 other clubs will know that and hammer the living bejesus out of them I hope Scott has them well prepared for the fire works.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Cool sounds like (despite Bathie not being perfect) so long as at least one of West or Stevo are there to take the lion's share of the work he can fill in the rest and even rotate through other areas of the ground. If nothing else at least AFL exposure would teach him a lot and could accelerate his feel for the game.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

But one thing I do know, Orren has become our most valuable draft choice.

For the upcoming season, sure. But, I think he was our most valuable draft choice in relation to our chances in 2012 the day we picked him.