Delivery or forward talent

[pext]

This little chestnut is brought out by the crows every second week it seems. David Noble is in the Addy talking about how the crows forwards woes are a combination of bad forward entries and a lack of talent up forward.

My contention is that the first part of this statement is utter garbage and is issued by the crows to deflect attention from our woeful forwards.

I guess the crows believe that our midfield of Roo, Macca, Burto, Goody, Edo, etc can handle the flack whilst our fragile forwards need to be shielded.

I just don't buy the poor delivery angle. For starters we have quality users of the ball like Roo, Macca, Thommo, Good and Edo getting 100 possies per match. Surely enough of those should be of sufficient quality to return better that 7 goals. If not then maybe they should take back the Norm Smiths and the Brownlow.

Secondly, how many times did the ball hit Ian Perrie in the hands on Saturday night. Honestly, the bloke looked like he was trying to mark a greased piglet.

Thirdly, and most damningly, is that when Thommo went forward and presented towards the end of Saturdays match he got on the end of good ball and kick a lazy three, and he's not even 6".

I'm calling this one as I see it. This is solely a problem of lack of talent inside forward 50. No-one presents and demands the ball and none of the midfileders have any faith in the forward, thats why the movement is slow and often to no-one.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Stiffy_18]

I think its a combination of 3 things, delivery, personel and structure.

I think delivery has been hit and miss this year. There are times we really deliver it well but there are times where we bomb it forward blindly and hope something happens. Having said that, I think overall our delivery into the forward 50 (as far as kicking to the advantage side) has improved but we still sometimes honour a wide lead rather than look for a better option. When we talk about the delivery we are not talking just the quality of the kick but also where we deliver the ball. If we keep hitting forward on the chest with perfect kicks but they end up in a pocket then the delivery isn't good.

Secondly, I think our forward line structure makes our forward line too crowded. I would like to see us play with more open forward line. Currently we are playing 5 or 6 men forward line. Why not play a 3 or 4 men forward line?????? I also don't think forwards know what their roles us. It seems to me that everyone is going for the ball when it would be better if some pealed away and created space. There was in instance on saturday where Roo won the ball from the center bounce and quickly cleared it into the forward 50. This took about 2 seconds and when the ball hit the CHF spot there was Perrie, Edwards, McLeod and someone esle all going for the same ball. So in effect there were 8 players around the ball at that time. What ever happened to creating space

Thirdly, as much sa I admire the likes of Perrie and Welsh, the fact remains you won't kick many goals with these 2 as your key forwards. Perrie is a workhorse and not a skilled one at that. Welsh is a 3rd tall, medium type forward not a KPP that he is played us. We also don't have any crumbers.

I think its a combination of all 3. Delivery has improved but still has a fair way to go. The structure is not right and as a result the forward line to too crowded and has no space to work with and personel aren't world beaters by any means.

 

[- PC -]

Talent

Good talent makes poor deliveries ok. Good talent makes good deliveries look brilliant

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

Lack of forward line talent and Burtons delivery.

For how much longer are they going to blame our forward line woes on the delivery. If I was a midfielder at the AFC, Burton aside, I would be getting a little miffed with the constant criticisms.

 

[Mad Dog]

just read what I posted on ATCF....

 

[outback jack]

This little chestnut is brought out by the crows every second week it seems. David Noble is in the Addy talking about how the crows forwards woes are a combination of bad forward entries and a lack of talent up forward.

My contention is that the first part of this statement is utter garbage and is issued by the crows to deflect attention from our woeful forwards.

I guess the crows believe that our midfield of Roo, Macca, Burto, Goody, Edo, etc can handle the flack whilst our fragile forwards need to be shielded.

I just don't buy the poor delivery angle. For starters we have quality users of the ball like Roo, Macca, Thommo, Good and Edo getting 100 possies per match. Surely enough of those should be of sufficient quality to return better that 7 goals. If not then maybe they should take back the Norm Smiths and the Brownlow.

Secondly, how many times did the ball hit Ian Perrie in the hands on Saturday night. Honestly, the bloke looked like he was trying to mark a greased piglet.

Thirdly, and most damningly, is that when Thommo went forward and presented towards the end of Saturdays match he got on the end of good ball and kick a lazy three, and he's not even 6".

I'm calling this one as I see it. This is solely a problem of lack of talent inside forward 50. No-one presents and demands the ball and none of the midfileders have any faith in the forward, thats why the movement is slow and often to no-one.

Any thoughts on this?

pext you legend, i've always admired you logical thoughts and have the deepest respect for your brilliant observations.

However, you are wrong on this one. It is the forward delivery and lack or quality overlap/run to be able to deliver this flat pinpoint type kicks that hurts us. Perrie cant be expected to mark it when its either over his head or dribbling along the ground half the time.

You name Roo, Macca, Burto, Goody, Edo. Well roo has generally good disposal, macca has done shi te all and spends half of his time in a pocket or HFF, edwards has been poor and goes left foot happy giving this high loopy things to grab. And obviously the birdmans disposal aint great. To add to this we have the delivery of skipworth who cant kick and more that 40m, shirely is crap. Reilly has good disposal, but once again generally kicks it short and hardly gets enough of the ball to be a threat. What this is all saying is that imo, our delivery has always been poor and even someone like tredrea would struggle in our side cause of our poor delivery. Under ayres we bombed to packs or on the forwards head as well. It is improving but has a long way to go.


The only forward that would solve our problem is JB, cause generally you can just kick it in his direction and he'll mark it. When we have the footskills of the hawks, who manage to pinpoint a 180cm average player, and perrie or welshy are still dropping then we can blame them. We need to get some run down the middle. Might just have to rule a line through some of these types that are slow and have poor disposal for us.

 

[- PC -]

The only forward that would solve our problem is JB, cause generally you can just kick it in his direction and he'll mark it. .

Jack with this statement I feel you shoot your own argument down. First you say its poor delivery, then you say if a player is good enough poor delivery doesnt matter???????????????????????

 

[just maybe]

Jack with this statement I feel you shoot your own argument down. First you say its poor delivery, then you say if a player is good enough poor delivery doesnt matter???????????????????????

What's wrong with that? Makes sense? We have poor delivery AND players who arent good enough?

 

[MrChristo]

Excuse me for butting in guys, but it's an interesting topic....

I didn't see muich of this weeks game, but given both teams kicked low sscores, what were the conditions like?

The reason I ask is because I think the perception that you guys don't score is a bit over-rated.

Low scores against 2 very good defensive teams (West Coast, Kangas), 81 against a scrappy Collingwood and 3 weeks in a row 109+.

Realistically it was only the Melbourne game where you really struggled?

Like I said, I haven't seen all of the Brisbane game, but 23 scoring shots isn't the worst night out.

(I rate the Crows quite highly this year, but you've ruined my tipping 2 weeks in a row now! )

 

[drakeyv2]

Both

 

[outback jack]

Jack with this statement I feel you shoot your own argument down. First you say its poor delivery, then you say if a player is good enough poor delivery doesnt matter???????????????????????

I do feel it is both our delivery and talent in the forward line, but feel that it is generally the forward line that is blamed almost entirely, when our disposal hasnt been too great for many yrs either. JB is good enough because he is perhaps one of a handful of players that wouldnt necessarily require pinpoint disposal.

I remember the other yr that WC said in a fox interview that he felt the forward line was being blamed in adelaide when it was how well the team delivered it and the forward pressure that was important. It might have changed a bit, as with ayres we had a tendency to just bomb it on a forwards head, but even the club goes on about how we had 56 inside 50's or something like that, but when its not quality you can expect too much to come from them and generally it doesnt.

 

[Crowked]

I think its a combination of 3 things, delivery, personel and structure.

That pretty much covers every possible scenario.


Seriously though, the delivery and the structure rely very heavily on the personnel. If you dont have the personnel to play the desired structure, you are compromised. If the personnel cant take a bloody mark or dont know where to lead or how to time it, you are compromised. I think its mostly personnel.

We have the worst forward line in the comp. Ask this question. Who of our recognised forwards would get a gig at a top 4 club? I'm tipping its none. I dont think many, if any of our forwards would even get a game at a top 8 club. Sh !t, most of them wouldnt get a game anywhere but the AFC.

 

[pext]

pext you legend, i've always admired you logical thoughts and have the deepest respect for your brilliant observations.

However, you are wrong on this one.

24 carat gold!

However, this does nothing to dispell the rumours that we are the same person.

 

[outback jack]

24 carat gold!

However, this does nothing to dispell the rumours that we are the same person.

we are on at the same time now so it is proved

 

[pext]

I rate us as a team and I seriously rate our midfield and defence.

It seems to me that what is clearly missing is a quality key forward who is going to demand the ball and present a serious contested option.

We don't need J Brown or N Riewoldt or W Tredrea. We just need a player of reasonable quality.

If the birdman could get in space on centre wing and was faced with a CHF charging at him demanding the ball he would have no option but to deliver it to the CHF. Take the decision out of his hands. (NB: I actually rate the birdman he's not the worst at the club)

I honestly believe that the only thing wrong is lack of pesonel. If we fix that, we're apples!

King Ferg has all of these traits needed. Let's find out if he can play!

 

[Mad Dog]

 

[Crowked]

However, this does nothing to dispell the rumours that we are the same person.

Jack & Pext, we realise you arent the same person. We also know why you think alike. We know who you are!

 

[missionpossible]

Forward line problems was well illustrated in one play on saturday night.
For once the television cameras did not zoome in for a close up of the player running forward in the clear on the members wing and you could see the area in fornt of him from the coaches bench to the goals and back to CHF.
I cant recall who had the ball but there was four forwards scattered in the area the closest being 40m away and the furtherest was 80m away. Each player had an opponent standing right next to their shoulder.
So with plenty of space to work with it was noted that not one forward lead to the ball carrier which meant he could not deliver a lace out pass (that mark willams thrives on) even if he was capable. To make things even worse none of the forward moved in any direction.
Now this being the case the best the ball carrier could have done was sit the ball up over a crows players head and to his side of the contest to give him a chance of winning a one on one battle or at least the ball would come to the ground. The player with the ball then however decides to kink the ball as long as he can between two crows players whereby it bounces and rolls out of bounds without a contest in the tony hall pocket.
In conclusion a number of problems.
1) forwards not confident enough to demand the ball be delivered to them by moving
2) poor decision making by the ball carrier
3) poor kicking into the forwards deminishes the desire to present a lead

Solution
The coaching panel need to pick a forward line that they will stick with for the rest of the year rather than changing it all the time
Something like -
Biglands/Hudson change in the goals square thus requiring a strong defender to stand them.
Pierre to play centre half forward and present to wherever a 50m kick would land
Walsh and hentshell to do the leading to and away from the ball carrier.
skipworth to run in with the flight of the ball to do the crumbing along with welsh hentshell if their leads aren't used.

 

[Mong]

It's not necessarily got anything to do with this thread, although it is some indication of the way we use the ball generally. Someone posted on the main board an interesting statistic regarding clangers. We've kicked the least number of clangers in the comp.

Clangers: Clubs
Hawthorn - 378
Collingwood - 349
Fremantle - 345
Brisbane Lions - 342
Port Adelaide - 341
Essendon - 335
Geelong - 333
St. Kilda - 329
Kangaroos - 324
West Coast - 323
Western Bulldogs - 323
Carlton - 321
Sydney - 321
Melbourne - 315
Richmond - 311
Adelaide - 294

From post 12 in the thread:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171339