Coach Did Hinkley underperform as Power coach?

[The Hobo]

It’s funny how our list apparently isn’t good enough yet the teams we eventually lost to in finals, on every occasion we were somehow good enough to beat them during the season.

So you automatically credit the wins to the list, and give zero credit to the coaching. Interesting.

 

[Elixuh]

Righto

Glad we can agree

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

So you automatically credit the wins to the list, and give zero credit to the coaching. Interesting.

You mean the coaching that has shown on every occasion it fails in finals? Yeah that’s what I’m highlighting here.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

In all honesty, he probably overachieved
His lists were never really stacked for talent

 

[edgie]

No. scott is arguably our best ever coach.

But I'd happily have him as a senior assistant or GM of Footy etc.

Until 2020 Scott was also seen as not achieving with Geelong's list, not making a grand final since his first season in 2011.

 

[edgie]

There's not one team that has not had some absolutely elite players over the last 15 years. And when you put them in a list in that way, you may be sitting there wondering how on earth they haven't won a premiership. We can rattle off all the good players we've had over the years - but so can every other club.

I strongly believe it's not the strongest players that cost teams premierships - it's the weaker players. The depth players.

Team's that haven't made a grand final in 15 years:

Port
Carlton
North
Gold Coast

What extraordinary company we keep!

 

[edgie]

One issue is the team never really bottomed out like Brisbane did. You had a mini rebuild in which you drafted well but then there were gaps in the squad that had to be filled and which were filled with average to very average talent. Kenny has done well with what he’s had at his disposal.

We've almost never missed a trade target and continually brought up high end talent - Ryder, Dixon, Luko, JHF, etc etc.

Don't give us this bullshit. Most teams would envy our success at the trade.

 

[Elixuh]

We've almost never missed a trade target and continually brought up high end talent - Ryder, Dixon, Luko, JHF, etc etc.

Don't give us this bullshit. Most teams would envy our success at the trade.

Do you think the team you rolled out last year was capable of a flag or that Kenny overachieved getting you to top 4?

 

[edgie]

Why are so many people hard up tp argue against facts? Argue against long term statistics and records?

Sacking Hinkley isn't any different now to what it would have been in 2019. If anything sacking him in 2019 would have been even more justified.

 

[edgie]

Do you think the team you rolled out last year was capable of a flag or that Kenny overachieved getting you to top 4?

I think the teams in 2015, 2018, 2020, 2021 were all absolutely capable of playing in a grand final. I think the team last year wasn't as good on paper, but we didn't lose on paper, we lost in the head. There's no reason we should have lost by 15 goals to Geelong at home and 7 goals to Sydney in the prelim.

2019 is maybe the only year he achieved about right IMO.

Kenny only overachieved once. 2013.

 

[Elixuh]

I think the teams in 2015, 2018, 2020, 2021 were all absolutely capable of playing in a grand final. I think the team last year wasn't as good on paper, but we didn't lose on paper, we lost in the head. There's no reason we should have lost by 15 goals to Geelong at home and 7 goals to Sydney in the prelim.

2019 is maybe the only year he achieved about right IMO.

Kenny only overachieved once. 2013.

Whatever year you almost beat that great hawks team in the finals was the best and most balanced list Kenny has had at his disposal.

 

[edgie]

Whatever year you almost beat that great hawks team in the finals was the best and most balanced list Kenny has had at his disposal.

We beat Hawks twice in 2015 and didn't make finals.

REGARDLESS

Ken has been here ten more seasons since 2014, so that's even worse! It reflects even worse on him as it was largely still Primus's and Choco's list he was playing with! As head coach Ken is responsible for helping to shape and develop the list too one would think!

Even more reason to have sacked him!

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Until 2020 Scott was also seen as not achieving with Geelong's list, not making a grand final since his first season in 2011.

And persistence paid off. Also a vastly different set of circumstances by refusing to rebuild and trying to beat the system.

2012 - Lost Ottens after list lodgment and spent the year with a journeyman ruck. Struggled with new players largely being not that good. Off the pace.
2013 - Injuries the sole reason we weren't premiers. Losing ruckman Simpson latter stages of the season then Hawkins back gave in during finals. Lost Chapman and Enright in September. Still went close.
2014 - Old players started to show miles on the clock. Off the pace.
2015 - Missed finals. Rebuild beckoned.
2016 - Finished 2nd. Same W/L as 1st and 3rd. Lost to a side that had belted us earlier in the year.
2017 - Bungled our first final against Richmond. Who we'd beaten a month earlier. Wiped by Adelaide easily. QF was even until Guthrie got injured while tagging Martin, and he went nuts in the last Q.
2018 - Symptomatic of '16 and '17 relied on too few. Forward depth and backline depth a worry. Well off the pace.
2019 - Definitely bungled the QF. Pulled the ruckman before the game anticipating rain that never arrived. Grundy dominated. Put us back in the path of Dusty who again was the difference.
2020 - Covid season. Did well to make the GF tbh. Shorter games probably helped our old side. Beaten by Dusty alone again.
2021 - Played the same slow and stodgy game plan protecting a slow backline. Well off the pace
2022 - Sacked half the assistants. Completely flipped the game plan for speed. With quality small forwards, a more nimble defence and a still dominant midfield. Won it all.

In the end the key differences are 1. Trying to beat the system and not build through years of high picks. 2. Realising something was drastically wrong with the playing style and drafting aggressively to correct it. 3. Not being afraid to sack assistants to implement a new style.

2019 the forward line was Hawkins, Ratugolea, Atkins, Dahlhaus, Miers and Ablett. 2022 it was Hawkins, Cameron, Close, Stengle, Miers, Rohan. 2nd gun KPF, more speed, more endurance, more scoring and more defensive pressure.
2019 the backline was Taylor, Henderson, Kolodjashnij, Henry, Stewart and Tuohy. 2022 it was Henry, Kolodjashnij, SDK, Stewart, Tuohy, Z.Guthrie. Much more nimble.

I look at Port and think a forward line spearheaded by Dixon was never getting it done. B tier Key Forward at best. At the other end Captain Jonas was undersized as a Key Back and don't think any inclusions since have moved the needle. Never had the bookends good enough to go all the way IMO.

 

[The Hobo]

Team's that haven't made a grand final in 15 years:

Port
Carlton
North
Gold Coast

What extraordinary company we keep!

"Making a Grand Final" feels like a metric that someone has picked to suit their agenda. Making a Grand Final isn't the aim, so I don't know why it's relevant.

We can all come up with other obscure metrics to suit our arguments, but even if Ken had made a grand final and not won it, people would still be complaining.

 

[Elixuh]

We beat Hawks twice in 2015 and didn't make finals.

REGARDLESS

Ken has been here ten more seasons since 2014, so that's even worse! It reflects even worse on him as it was largely still Primus's and Choco's list he was playing with! As head coach Ken is responsible for helping to shape and develop the list too one would think!

Even more reason to have sacked him!

Kenny might be a victim of his own success. Continually taking a perenially bog average team to top 4, 2 to 8 places above where they should finish. It then causes confusion for the power fans as to what should be happening.

 

[The Hobo]

You mean the coaching that has shown on every occasion it fails in finals? Yeah that’s what I’m highlighting here.

So when we win a final, it's the list
When we lose it's the coach.
Got it.

 

[The Hobo]

Kenny might be a victim of his own success. Continually taking a perenially bog average team to top 4, 2 to 8 places above where they should finish. It then causes confusion for the power fans as to what should be happening.

Yup spot on - Been saying it for ages. But many can't even process the possibility.

 

[John Kale]

There's not one team that has not had some absolutely elite players over the last 15 years. And when you put them in a list in that way, you may be sitting there wondering how on earth they haven't won a premiership. We can rattle off all the good players we've had over the years - but so can every other club.

I strongly believe it's not the strongest players that cost teams premierships - it's the weaker players. The depth players.

Isn’t that an indictment on Hinkley though?

Elite players are always going to do their thing and impact games regardless of who is at the helm. Bontempelli would dominate even if Mark Neeld were his coach.

The sign of good coaching is when they’re able to turn the certified spuds on their list into useful contributors. That’s the entire point of the head coach - making the sum of a list’s parts greater than its whole.

Every premiership side is littered with absolute spuds that their coach managed to elevate.

Billy Frampton and Oleg Markov were journeyman spuds until McRae, Josh Mahoney was a journeyman spud until Chocco, you can find multiple examples in every flag winner.

Hell, outside of the top 4-5 elite players I’d argue the entire squad of the recent Richmond dynasty were average at best.

Even in the opposite direction example - Brent Renouf and Scott Lycett were both premiership winning ruckmen, who came to port under Hinkley and were useless.

It’s also survivorship bias - a list isn’t good enough to win a flag until it does.

You say Hinkley didn’t win the glad because the depth players didn’t perform well enough? I say Hinkley didn’t win the flag because he didn’t have the ability to effectively elevate his depth players properly.

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

So when we win a final, it's the list
When we lose it's the coach.
Got it.

Did you even read my initial post or just cherry pick something to manipulate into your own words? Got it.

 

[Elixuh]

Yup spot on - Been saying it for ages. But many can't even process the possibility.

Yes I think many power fans are blinded by their hatred for Kenny and can’t see all that he has done for them

 

[The Hobo]

Isn’t that an indictment on Hinkley though?

You say Hinkley didn’t win the glad because the depth players didn’t perform well enough? I say Hinkley didn’t win the flag because he didn’t have the ability to effectively elevate his depth players properly.

It absolutely could be - but it's not a foregone conclusion that it is. Otherwise you could apply the same logic to every coach every season. Why didn't Geelong or Collingwood win the flag last season etc.

But the way some Port fans talk, it's as if Ken was the sole reason we didn't win a premiership, and the possibility of the list not being good enough, or the support staff (incl. fitness,medical etc) weren't good enough etc. is unfathomable.

Everything is Ken's fault, and the moment he steps out of the door, the club will win multiple premierships apparently.

Players that have stalled in their development will suddenly become All Australians etc etc.

Now obviously i'm being hyperbolic, but you get my point.

Ken obviously has a part to play, but the best coach in the world won't win a premiership with a poor list, whilst an average coach may win a premiership with an amazing list. I don't think we have a poor list, and there's been times it has been good enough and we've fallen just short. Luck or coaching or other?

 

[Mr Meow]

I love this "his lists weren't good enough" revisonist reinterpretation of history, particularly from the Handbagger Mafia. The 2021 side that got embarrasingly blown off the park, at home, against the travelling Wilbury Bulldogs contained no less than 9 All Australians and a further 2 that had made the 40 list. So half the 22 at some point were considered in the top 40 players in the land. Shit list indeed.

Only 2 Port players made the AA team, and only 3 for the squad of 40 in that 2021 season though. Butters and Rozee were only kids. The Dogs had 3 players make the final team.

Port supporters are notorious for overrating their lists. The bottom 6-10 is where you'll find the pain in most seasons. It's also difficult to find many elite defensive or forward groups in any one off Port season over the past decade.

 

[edgie]

So when we win a final, it's the list
When we lose it's the coach.
Got it.

Why? It seems to be the official narrative that when we win it's Ken and when we don't it's the worst list in the 8

 

[edgie]

Charlie Dixon had his best goals per game average at the Gold Coast.

 

[Dazb86]

Kenny might be a victim of his own success. Continually taking a perenially bog average team to top 4, 2 to 8 places above where they should finish. It then causes confusion for the power fans as to what should be happening.

This is 100% correct. They'll still be blaming him in a few years time as well.

It's a repeat of North and Brad Scott.