Do you pray?

[Frodo]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Frodo
What you call lifeforce is God, he is everywhere.
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No he isn't.


__________________

Well at least you accept 'he' exists.

 

[mellowyellow]

Didn't realize there were so many pantheists "in the woodwork".

 

[Mr Q]

Originally posted by Jars458
So If I have never seen a Pink Elephant wtih ten eyes, this is still not proof that no such thing exists.

Clearly this is technically true, but logic would suggest otherwise.

In my view, I am more likely to see the above beast one day rather than God.

Essentially, that's exactly it. However, in an infinite (or nearly so) universe, there is a chance that there is (or was, or will be) something out there that looks like an elephant, is pink and has ten eyes. I'd say the odds of the human race ever discovering this object is approximately zero.

God on the other hand (should He exist), is not restricted to "somewhere else", and is not necessarily a tangible object like your pale crimson decafocal elephant. Its quite possible that whether there is a God or not it may not be possible with all the resources in the universe to prove or disprove a God; with those same resources you'd have the wherewithal to prove or disprove your elephant.

 

[DaveW]

Six years of seconday catholic education and before that five and half out of seven years of primary catholic education and in that time way too many Sunday mornings - or even Saturday nights - spent at church... and I haven't even heard anything remotely convincing that God exists.

No, I don't pray.

 

[Frodo]

Originally posted by DaveW
Six years of seconday catholic education and before that five and half out of seven years of primary catholic education and in that time way too many Sunday mornings - or even Saturday nights - spent at church... and I haven't even heard anything remotely convincing that God exists.

Look into a mirror, smell a rose, touch a kitten, breathe the air, hear a baby cry...............pretty convincing, after all there are only two choices, God..and it all being an accident.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Frodo
Look into a mirror, smell a rose, touch a kitten, breathe the air, hear a baby cry...............pretty convincing, after all there are only two choices, God..and it all being an accident.

Disease, pestilence, incest, pedophilia, war, rape, drought, hunger - pretty convincing argument - only two choices. ...and to think that some supreme being, in all his wisdom and compassion and pity, created these.

Thanks but no thanks. Even if there was a god, one that created a world like this to torment humanity doesnt deserve to be worshipped.

 

[Zeke]

Originally posted by otaku
Disease, pestilence, incest, pedophilia, war, rape, drought, hunger - pretty convincing argument - only two choices. ...and to think that some supreme being, in all his wisdom and compassion and pity, created these.

Thanks but no thanks. Even if there was a god, one that created a world like this to torment humanity doesnt deserve to be worshipped.

God created the world. Humans fcuked it up.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Zeke
God created the world. Humans fcuked it up.

god created humans, with all our base desires and passions. god fcuked us up.

Still proves my point. Even if he did exist, he wouldnt be worth worshipping.

 

[Generalissimo]

Originally posted by Zeke
God created the world. Humans fcuked it up.

That's a strong statement. In my opinion, if you gave the world a score of zero to ten, with zero being Hell and ten being Heaven, I'd say Earth is currently on about six and a half.

Originally posted by otaku
god created humans, with all our base desires and passions. god fcuked us up.

Not at all. God gave us the power to make our own choices, which by necessity means we have the freedom to make bad choices. And yet, there are still a lot more good people on the Earth than evil people. I think He did a good job. And let's not forget the rest of the universe, all the bits of it that aren't people. A masterpiece.

That's my opinion anyway.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Frodo
Look into a mirror, smell a rose, touch a kitten, breathe the air, hear a baby cry

I think the crying baby belongs in the list below

Originally posted by otaku
Disease, pestilence, incest, pedophilia, war, rape, drought, hunger

 

[TigerCraig]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
Great topic gods and religion. If you asked someone these days if they believe in magic or demons or fairies or a pantheon of gods or some other similar myths and fantasies, most people would laugh at you. Yet when you ask about god, then it is all taken very seriously.

Religion and gods were invented by ancient men to explain things they didn't understand. They became a comfort to people in a difficult world. Religion was then exploited to keep the masses in check and as a tool to make people do what you want, particularly wars.

Good point - why should "God", "Allah" whatever be given any more (or less) credence than Zeus, Jupiter, Neptune, Poseidon, Aphrodite, Venus, Odin, Thor, Isis, Osiris, Krishna, Shiva, etc etc. For all anyone knows one or all of the Hindus/Greeks/Romans/Egyptians/Norse/Druids could have been right.

Maybe Terry Pratchett is right - all gods exist, and they die when noone believes in them anymore

 

[Frodo]

Originally posted by otaku
Disease, pestilence, incest, pedophilia, war, rape, drought, hunger -

All of which are challenges. From these challenges we find people who rise to the occassion, find cures, save lives, feed people. Without the hurdles of life there would be no room for anyone to develop (spititually), which is why we are here.

 

[Generalissimo]

Originally posted by TigerCraig
Good point - why should "God", "Allah" whatever be given any more (or less) credence than Zeus, Jupiter, Neptune, Poseidon, Aphrodite, Venus, Odin, Thor, Isis, Osiris, Krishna, Shiva, etc etc. For all anyone knows one or all of the Hindus/Greeks/Romans/Egyptians/Norse/Druids could have been right.

Mebbe. But if you think about things logically, you can maybe narrow the list down a bit.

For example, given that humans occasionally do some bad and silly things because we're not all-knowing and all-powerful, you'd expect a logical Creator to go to extraordinary lengths to salvage the situation rather than expecting us to do it all ourselves. That kind of rules out the sea gods, most of whom wouldn't get off their backsides for any reason whatsoever.

The love gods can be ruled out straight away, since we can assume the universe was created before gender had any meaning. A similar argument can safely bundle out poor old Thor, thunder and whatnot.

The real Lord and Master of the universe would be fully aware that He is totally on top of things, and would not be so insecure as to demand elaborate shows of devotion (but would probably appreciate it if offered). I'd say we can therefore strike Zeus and possibly Allah off the list.

I believe there is a creator for wholly scientific reasons and, even though all religions have their flaws, I think Christianity is probably closer to the truth than any of the others. That's actual proper Christianity, mind you. Not the sort that tries to justify murder, or sexism, or child abuse or any of the other nonsense we've had to put up with.

 

[aggels]

Originally posted by TigerCraig
Good point - why should "God", "Allah" whatever be given any more (or less) credence than Zeus, Jupiter, Neptune, Poseidon, Aphrodite, Venus, Odin, Thor, Isis, Osiris, Krishna, Shiva, etc etc. For all anyone knows one or all of the Hindus/Greeks/Romans/Egyptians/Norse/Druids could have been right.

Maybe Terry Pratchett is right - all gods exist, and they die when noone believes in them anymore

Actually, as somebody who identifies as a Christian (although a very errr... liberal Christian) I kind of think you're onto something there. What if there is one entity, the creator, who we call god, or allah or Zeus, or whatever, and everything that we call religion - it's all true, it's all interpretations of this one entity. I don't know... I don't hold too much faith in human logic when it comes to matters of spirituality.

But this is something that's not very popular with Christians nor Atheists, so I don't mention it much. And yes, I do realise your post was a little tongue in cheek so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Whisky_McKay]

A couple of quotes from history.
"If there was no God man would find a need to invent one"
and
"Religion is opium for the masses"

As for me, if people are weaker than some of us and find a need to lean on a crutch to get them through life then that is their concern.

 

[BomberGal]

Originally posted by TheMase
Time is a form of measurement.

Time is how long it takes the sun to complete a full orbit of the Earth, which is broken down into 24 hour days, which is broken down to 60 minutes in an hour and so on.

Time is a form of measurement, nothing more IMO.

Time is movement. If nothing moved, there would be no time. I don't know why people can say time does exist, or that time doesn't exist (I believe I had that argument with someone here once) - time is a fact. It's a concept to measure movement, if you like.

In response to the topic question, yes, I do. Whether or not a God is out there, it certainly comforts me when the need be. Maybe that's because I need to be in control, and there are some things I don't have control over (ie illness, lives of loved ones, football results...), but I need to feel something is controlling them, hence my God. It is not a dependency, that I am too weak to make it through life on my own - but life in itself is a big deal. Look at life and tell me that it was all just an accident? That it all just happened? That atoms exist the way they do and cells exist and life can form? I currently study both chemistry and biology, and perhaps intend on doing physics later in life whilst continuing my chemistry and biology studies uni and career wise, so it's fair to say that I'm pretty science-orientated. However, my aunt once said to me, "You look at a baby, and think about how it came to be, and I know all the science behind it, but you can't tell me that there isn't something going into that." She is a vet, by the way, so has done many, many years of science. And the more I think about what she said, the more I perhaps agree with it. Is it some sort of freak accident that life keeps happening and happening, over and over, the same way? That all of these people can exist, just because that's life? Why don't millions of things go wrong? Why are all these chemical reactions occuring the same way, again and again and again and again? Life can't be a coincedence.

And, furthermore, there are currently studies going on, attempting to prove the existence of God through physics. (something to do with quarks.) I don't know the first thing about physics (other than basic light and sound, obviously) so I have no idea what this could possibly be, but these experts obviously know something. Perhaps God is not tangible, but rather, intangible. I read a theory recently, that suggested it was impossible for the universe to be made up of 'space' (eg between two stars or two objects in outer space). Because, theoretically, if two objects are separated by nothing, then they are touching. So therefore, there IS something between them. But whatever is there, is not something seemingly material. Perhaps God - whoever he is, and I'm not saying he's my God (I'm Christian, and not Catholic btw) - is like that. Perhaps He (sorry, it's just a He because of my upbringing) operates on the intangible level, or at the unconscious level, or simply at a spiritual level inside of us. I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows - but you can't tell me it doesn't exist just because you can't see it.

 

[Mr Q]

I nominate the above post as one of the most intelligent posts in this thread - well thought out and expressed.

BomberGirl good luck with your studies in science and I hope the faith you have will sustain you when it gets hard.

 

[mellowyellow]

Originally posted by BomberGal
Time is movement. If nothing moved, there would be no time.

Might explain why getting any sevice from a public servant makes time stand still.

 

[eagleskickass]

What Bombergal said rings quite true to me, no matter how i percieve it i cannot see our existance as merely lots of chance happenings occuring leading to everything how it is now, i just cant see that. Therefore i deduce there is a God, and for various reasons believe the christian God to be the only real True God.
Yes i pray.

 

[Groucho]

Originally posted by BomberGal
Time is movement. If nothing moved, there would be no time. I don't know why people can say time does exist, or that time doesn't exist (I believe I had that argument with someone here once) - time is a fact. It's a concept to measure movement, if you like.

In response to the topic question, yes, I do. Whether or not a God is out there, it certainly comforts me when the need be. Maybe that's because I need to be in control, and there are some things I don't have control over (ie illness, lives of loved ones, football results...), but I need to feel something is controlling them, hence my God. It is not a dependency, that I am too weak to make it through life on my own - but life in itself is a big deal. Look at life and tell me that it was all just an accident? That it all just happened? That atoms exist the way they do and cells exist and life can form? I currently study both chemistry and biology, and perhaps intend on doing physics later in life whilst continuing my chemistry and biology studies uni and career wise, so it's fair to say that I'm pretty science-orientated. However, my aunt once said to me, "You look at a baby, and think about how it came to be, and I know all the science behind it, but you can't tell me that there isn't something going into that." She is a vet, by the way, so has done many, many years of science. And the more I think about what she said, the more I perhaps agree with it. Is it some sort of freak accident that life keeps happening and happening, over and over, the same way? That all of these people can exist, just because that's life? Why don't millions of things go wrong? Why are all these chemical reactions occuring the same way, again and again and again and again? Life can't be a coincedence.

And, furthermore, there are currently studies going on, attempting to prove the existence of God through physics. (something to do with quarks.) I don't know the first thing about physics (other than basic light and sound, obviously) so I have no idea what this could possibly be, but these experts obviously know something. Perhaps God is not tangible, but rather, intangible. I read a theory recently, that suggested it was impossible for the universe to be made up of 'space' (eg between two stars or two objects in outer space). Because, theoretically, if two objects are separated by nothing, then they are touching. So therefore, there IS something between them. But whatever is there, is not something seemingly material. Perhaps God - whoever he is, and I'm not saying he's my God (I'm Christian, and not Catholic btw) - is like that. Perhaps He (sorry, it's just a He because of my upbringing) operates on the intangible level, or at the unconscious level, or simply at a spiritual level inside of us. I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows - but you can't tell me it doesn't exist just because you can't see it.

Uh oh,that opiated stuff from the '70's is back.

 

[Groucho]

Originally posted by Mr Q
I nominate the above post as one of the most intelligent posts in this thread - well thought out and expressed.

BomberGirl good luck with your studies in science and I hope the faith you have will sustain you when it gets hard.

Your turn to roll one.

 

[BomberGal]

Originally posted by Groucho
Your turn to roll one.

At any point do you care to justify your opinion?

 

[dr nick]

Originally posted by BomberGal
I currently study both chemistry and biology, and perhaps intend on doing physics later in life whilst continuing my chemistry and biology studies uni and career wise, so it's fair to say that I'm pretty science-orientated.

i think its fair to say that the majority of science students at uni think they know a deal about science, when really they pretty much know squat after only just skimming the surface. If i had a dollar for every time that someone said "i'm studying science at university, i think i would know" i wouldn't need to work at the CSIRO.

Obviously you would not know very much about how biological forms can be created from inert molecules, having not studied physics. and i'll add, that undergraduate chemistry or biology is really a poor attempt to claim scientific knowledge.

Originally posted by BomberGal

However, my aunt once said to me, "You look at a baby, and think about how it came to be, and I know all the science behind it, but you can't tell me that there isn't something going into that." She is a vet, by the way, so has done many, many years of science. And the more I think about what she said, the more I perhaps agree with it. Is it some sort of freak accident that life keeps happening and happening, over and over, the same way? That all of these people can exist, just because that's life? Why don't millions of things go wrong? Why are all these chemical reactions occuring the same way, again and again and again and again? Life can't be a coincedence.

obviously havent studied evolution yet in your biology course yet. What, did you miss those lectures in "Concepts in Biology" semester 1, year 1?

Originally posted by BomberGal

Because, theoretically, if two objects are separated by nothing, then they are touching. So therefore, there IS something between them.

well, at least you admitted you know nothing about physics.

 

[Lestat]

i think its fair to say that the majority of science students at uni think they know a deal about science, when really they pretty much know squat after only just skimming the surface. If i had a dollar for every time that someone said "i'm studying science at university, i think i would know" i wouldn't need to work at the CSIRO.

Let me guess...your here to tell us all who the real 'science expert' is right??

obviously havent studied evolution yet in your biology course yet. What, did you miss those lectures in "Concepts in Biology" semester 1, year 1?

Then why don't you tell us sherlock...enlighten us all about 'evolution'.

The theory of evolution has so many holes in it...so much unexplained, that it is almost a religon in itself!

Remember....dinosaurs were apparently cold blooded reptiles.....whereas today science says otherwise!

well, at least you admitted you know nothing about physics.

And you sir...have managed to somehow say absolutely nothing in your post.

Its easy to be critical and add nothing.....see, I can do it too

 

[Roylion]

Originally posted by Lestat
Its easy to be critical and add nothing.....see, I can do it too

So true Lestat. You've added nothing to our previous debate for over three months now.

You claim you haven't conceded, but yet you can't answer the questions I've asked.

How is it that you can find the time to reply to other threads such as this yet still can't answer at least a couple of the previous questions I posed to you over three months ago?