Do you pray?

[BomberGal]

Originally posted by nicko18
i think its fair to say that the majority of science students at uni think they know a deal about science, when really they pretty much know squat after only just skimming the surface. If i had a dollar for every time that someone said "i'm studying science at university, i think i would know" i wouldn't need to work at the CSIRO.

Obviously you would not know very much about how biological forms can be created from inert molecules, having not studied physics. and i'll add, that undergraduate chemistry or biology is really a poor attempt to claim scientific knowledge.

obviously havent studied evolution yet in your biology course yet. What, did you miss those lectures in "Concepts in Biology" semester 1, year 1?

Actually, I'm in Year 12, a fact I'm sure you'll be delighted with. I didn't say I knew everything, and I'm the first to admit that my level of science is still only relatively basic. And like I mentioned, I do intend on having a science related study/career for the rest of my life...or for what I can see. I mentioned I study science to show that I'm not one of those all-religious-anti-science, and that science IS important to me (ie that I believe what science has to say). At no point did I say "this is what I learnt in Biology/Chemistry" to try to back up my argument. You've put words into my mouth.

And clearly I haven't studied Evolution, being in Year 12. However, this week we actually started what is in evolution in Year 12 biology. Yes, I know, it's basic. But it's a start. And a hell of a lot more than some people ever know. Just because I'm in Year 12 doesn't automatically mean what I know is not good enough.

Also, you suggest I can't know anything about creation of biological forms from inert molecules? Clearly, chemistry deals with enough physics to teach how molecules etc are made... Chemistry and physics do overlap in places, remember...

What level of science have you studied? Nice to see you put in a good, solid argument about the topic, too, rather than just picking my argument.

 

[Asgardian]

No, I do not pray

I am me, I don't need emotional crutches in the form of any religion.

When I'm dead, that's all folks, no more me, no afterlife, no rebirth, no heaven or hell, no reincarnation.

Just live your life with ethics, provide for your family, and have nice dogs as pets.

I cannot prove or dis-prove any form of religion

More importantly, no-one can prove or dis-prove them to me

So I say I'm right, I must be, I support Port Adelaide.....

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Asgardian
When I'm dead, that's all folks, no more me, no afterlife, no rebirth, no heaven or hell, no reincarnation.

I've always thought that if we truly believed in heaven we'd all just kill ourselves now.

It's supposed to be better than this place, isn't it?

 

[Milkman]

Yeah I pray. I also leave cookies and milk for santa on christmas eve.

 

[SpecialBruce]

Yes

 

[sebastien]

God exists

I am a christian (not catholic) and I pray. I am certain that your prayers will be answered and you will experience God if you pray to him.

How can you prove there is no God, when you do not know what life is like if God is present? We only know what wet is because we are always dry, but fish wont know. We cannot call a line crooked unless we know what a straight line is. A blind person would have no idea what colour is, and so on...

What kind of evidence would you need to believe that God exists? If you want to see him, then I hope you can also see air, love, hatred, etc. I guess it is more like an experience and feeling of being supported and looked after, in the same way you feel loved or hated by your friends or enemies.

It is also a matter of faith. It is not blind faith as christianity (thus the existance of God) is based on facts. Jesus did live on Earth two thousand years ago, and the Romas did rule Israel and the Middle East at the time as stated in the Bible, which was written a long time ago. If you don't believe in God, why dont you read the Bible? If you don't believe in the bible, why can't you read it to prove yourself right? How can you not believe in the Bibile if you have not even read it before? (btw start from the new testament)

There is always a cause that produces an effect. The world around us, with its extremely complicated but perfectly functioning design means that it just can't starrt out of nowhere. If there is not a creator (i.e. God) then I dont think the world ruond us can be so beautiful and everyone has their own personalities. Perhaps we will be more like robots, and the whole place we live in may be a slump instead of beautiful trees, mountains and seas.

I thereby challenge anyone here to do some serious research and prove that God does not exist, which I am sure you will fail. Prove it yourself instead of waiting for answers if you really want to know.

 

[Roylion]

Re: God exists

Originally posted by sebastien
Jesus did live on Earth two thousand years ago, and the Romas did rule Israel and the Middle East at the time as stated in the Bible, which was written a long time ago.

The Bible it is believed was written by several people, over a long period of time. There are also those who deny Jesus existed due to the singular lack of contemporary evidence. The New Testament for example was begun about 30 years after the accepted time of Jesus' crucifixion.

Originally posted by sebastien

If you don't believe in God, why dont you read the Bible? If you don't believe in the bible, why can't you read it to prove yourself right? How can you not believe in the Bibile if you have not even read it before? (btw start from the new testament)

I've read the Bible several times. I've even completed textual analyses of several sections of the Bible as part of my tertiary studies, several years ago. Given the Bible's inconsistencies and omissions and given the way the present Bible is beleived to have been assembled, (with several important Books omitted),I have significant problems with the idea that the Bible is the divine "Word of God." I certainly wouldn't be putting it up as evidence that God exists. In my view it would be similar to using the Iliad or Odyssey as evidence that the Greek gods exist.

Originally posted by sebastien

I thereby challenge anyone here to do some serious research and prove that God does not exist, which I am sure you will fail. Prove it yourself instead of waiting for answers if you really want to know.

Well I guess those of us who are agnostic could issue a similar challenge to you and ask you to prove to us that a single all-encompassing God does exist. I don't know that you will be successful either.

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Atheists always justify their stance by asking the exact same questions. Why can't we see god? Why can't we hear God? Why can't we touch, taste or smell God? Why can't we test for God with scientific equipment? We cannot see, hear, touch, taste or smell the human conscious. We cannot test it with scientific equipment. When we run tests, we are measuring salt flow and electrical activity within the brain. Yet we believe human minds exist because we observe human carcasses running around making order out of disorder. Or does the human conscious not exist either?

Since everything we observe in the universe is an effect, there must have been a first cause. When nothing existed, how could the Universe suddenly become created? All physicists will tell you that energy cannot be created, merely converted from one form to another. So how did all this energy in the universe come about, when before it there was nothing? Assuming the Universe was not created, would anyone care to explain how organic life developed from inorganic matter?


Not believing in God is your choice, but at least have the open mindedness to allow for the possibility of a creator.

 

[sebastien]

Re: Re: God exists

The four gospels are simply four books written by four different people on the life of Jesus. I guess its just like different reporters talk about a football match, some would choose to leave out an incident, others a minor injury. Some may think a goal was scored, but others a point from another angle, etc. If the life of Jesus was only presented by one writer, I think it would be much harder for people to believe.

How do you know that some important books were omitted? From my understanding the ones omitted are not the word of God. The words of the Bible has clearly remained the same for thousands of years following the discovery of the Dead Sea's scrolls. How do you know that some important information is omitted? How do you know they are important? If you have read the Bible several times, I guess you'd have to say that it makes sense. It is why so many people read the book

As I have told you before, believing in God is more of a faith and experience thing. You cannot really use a scientific method to prove that God exists - it is a belief. How do you prove that George Washington did exist? What about Alexander the Great? Julius Caesar? Aristotle? With our limited abilities we can never prove God exists, like a bird can never keep flying and reach the moon

As I said before, how do you think the world started? It is a product of a design, just like the computer you are using now.
It may have started from a big bang, but how can it be so perfect, where the size is right so there is an atmosphere, and the distance from the sun ensures that it is not too hot or cold?

How do you create life or matter anyway? How do you create water or a rock out of nothing? If it all started by itself, how come no one has done or seen it? For insatnce, how can so many parts of our eyes function so perfectly together if they were formed naturally by mixing and matching? It is as ridiculous as saying a three-year-old picking up random parts can build a computer.

As daddy_4_eyes says, whether to believe or not is your choice

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
Atheists always justify their stance by asking the exact same questions. Why can't we see god? Why can't we hear God? Why can't we touch, taste or smell God? Why can't we test for God with scientific equipment? We cannot see, hear, touch, taste or smell the human conscious. We cannot test it with scientific equipment. When we run tests, we are measuring salt flow and electrical activity within the brain. Yet we believe human minds exist because we observe human carcasses running around making order out of disorder. Or does the human conscious not exist either?

Big difference between observable cause and effect, and imagined cause and effect.

Brain reactions: We observe electrical activity in the brain when something happens to that person.. We then REPEAT the experiment, and observe the same result. We REPEAT the experiment AGAIN, get the same results. This continues until we get a working hypothesis.

God has never been observed. God can never be observed. There is no scientific basis for god to exist as described by the major religions.

Since everything we observe in the universe is an effect, there must have been a first cause. When nothing existed, how could the Universe suddenly become created? All physicists will tell you that energy cannot be created, merely converted from one form to another. So how did all this energy in the universe come about, when before it there was nothing? Assuming the Universe was not created, would anyone care to explain how organic life developed from inorganic matter?

Who says there was nothing before the universe started? Seems you are falling back into the realms of psuedoscience here. Go learn the theories, before you try to disprove them.

By inorganic, i assume you mean "non-living? If so, DNA is made up of 20 or so Amino acids which are (basically) Hydrogen and carbon.

If not, and you meant inorganic in a chemistry sense, you need to go look up some basic science.

If you want to take the tack of "what was before the universe?"

well answer me the question: "what was before God"

Not believing in God is your choice, but at least have the open mindedness to allow for the possibility of a creator.

A creation force, maybe so. An anthropomorphic creator? I think not

 

[otaku]

Re: Re: Re: God exists

Originally posted by sebastien
The four gospels are simply four books written by four different people on the life of Jesus. I guess its just like different reporters talk about a football match, some would choose to leave out an incident, others a minor injury. Some may think a goal was scored, but others a point from another angle, etc. If the life of Jesus was only presented by one writer, I think it would be much harder for people to believe.

i have many series of books, written by different people, about one guy. Should i believe he is real? nope, and the same applies to you.

How do you know that some important books were omitted? From my understanding the ones omitted are not the word of God. The words of the Bible has clearly remained the same for thousands of years following the discovery of the Dead Sea's scrolls. How do you know that some important information is omitted? How do you know they are important? If you have read the Bible several times, I guess you'd have to say that it makes sense. It is why so many people read the book

the bible is full of internal contradictions. It DOESNT make sense. This is why so many people think that it is a crock of s.hite.

As I have told you before, believing in God is more of a faith and experience thing. You cannot really use a scientific method to prove that God exists - it is a belief. How do you prove that George Washington did exist? What about Alexander the Great? Julius Caesar? Aristotle? With our limited abilities we can never prove God exists, like a bird can never keep flying and reach the moon

i can prove that these people existed, and not just through secondary sources either. that kinda kills that idea eh?

As I said before, how do you think the world started? It is a product of a design, just like the computer you are using now.
It may have started from a big bang, but how can it be so perfect, where the size is right so there is an atmosphere, and the distance from the sun ensures that it is not too hot or cold?

YOU say it is a product of design. Maybe you say this because you dont like the idea of an uncaring universe? maybe it is a crutch for you? who knows?

How do you create life or matter anyway? How do you create water or a rock out of nothing? If it all started by itself, how come no one has done or seen it? For insatnce, how can so many parts of our eyes function so perfectly together if they were formed naturally by mixing and matching? It is as ridiculous as saying a three-year-old picking up random parts can build a computer.

matter is "created" by the conversion of energy. You dont create water or a rock out of "nothing".

If God created it all, why hasnt anyone ever seen him? Why hasnt he left behind some evidence of his existance?

You eye has evolved into what it is today: it didnt get created "magically" as an eye to begin with.

Your argument is as full of holes as the bible. Please go read the other posts before replying to this.

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Originally posted by otaku
Big difference between observable cause and effect, and imagined cause and effect.

Brain reactions: We observe electrical activity in the brain when something happens to that person.. We then REPEAT the experiment, and observe the same result. We REPEAT the experiment AGAIN, get the same results. This continues until we get a working hypothesis.

God has never been observed. God can never be observed. There is no scientific basis for god to exist as described by the major religions.

*sigh*

I am talking about the human conscious, not the brains activity. A computer sends electrical signals, and performs functions as programmed/designed, but is not conscious.

By inorganic, i assume you mean "non-living? If so, DNA is made up of 20 or so Amino acids which are (basically) Hydrogen and carbon.

If not, and you meant inorganic in a chemistry sense, you need to go look up some basic science.

If you want to take the tack of "what was before the universe?"

well answer me the question: "what was before God"

Good to see you know how life first started, because the rest of the scientific world hasn't been able to conclusively figure it out yet.

Your DNA explanation is overly simplistic. Its like saying Uranium is basically water, as both contain Protons, Neutrons and Electrons. Even the single cell organisms are so complex it is highly unlikely a random set of events would lead to the spontaneous start of life.





As I said before, at least keep an open mind that there are other possibilities than the ones you believe in (unless you don't know sh*t about science and are just copying stuff from a book/website).

 

[sebastien]

Originally posted by otaku
i have many series of books, written by different people, about one guy. Should i believe he is real? nope, and the same applies to you.

Well, whether you believe it or not is really out of my control.

Originally posted by otaku
the bible is full of internal contradictions. It DOESNT make sense. This is why so many people think that it is a crock of s.hite.

Where does it contradicte? The Bible may be about a lot of ideas, but the main point is about how a person can have eternal life. And please don't be so offensive

Originally posted by otaku
i can prove that these people existed, and not just through secondary sources either. that kinda kills that idea eh?.

Well, how do you prove they existed? If so, by the same token, Jesus also existed

Originally posted by otaku
matter is "created" by the conversion of energy. You dont create water or a rock out of "nothing".

If God created it all, why hasnt anyone ever seen him? Why hasnt he left behind some evidence of his existance?

You eye has evolved into what it is today: it didnt get created "magically" as an eye to begin with.

Where does the energy come from in the first place? Evidence of his existance would be the life of Jesus. How can you prove evolution? The idea of evolution is also full of holes. Does that mean our eyes will one day evolve into a pair of binoculars?

As I said, the existance of God is only a belief. The human race has believed in a God or Gods for a long time (egyptians, Indians, Chinese, etc) , and it shows that we have always had the idea of a superpower or creator.

I understand some people may find the idea of a God ridicuous, but science is only a way to explain the world, and I believe there are things you cannot fully explain. It is fine if you don't believe it, but I am only putting forward my ideas on this world

 

[Roylion]

Re: Re: Re: God exists

Originally posted by sebastien
The four gospels are simply four books written by four different people on the life of Jesus. I guess its just like different reporters talk about a football match, some would choose to leave out an incident, others a minor injury. Some may think a goal was scored, but others a point from another angle, etc. If the life of Jesus was only presented by one writer, I think it would be much harder for people to believe.

Correct. The four gospels were written by fallible mortals. Upon what basis should tey be regarded as the Word of God.

Originally posted by sebastien
How do you know that some important books were omitted? From my understanding the ones omitted are not the word of God.

And who made that decision about what is and what is not the Word of God? There is of course the Gospel of Thomas, the Book of Enoch or the Epistle of Barnabas written about 130. Then there's Philemon, and I and II Peter, I and II and III John. There's also the Book of Solomon, as well Jubilees, the Bookof Edras, the Ascension of Isaiah and the Books of the Maccabees. The Catholic Church in 393 decided the final form of the Bible , but even as late as 405, Pope Innocent I wrote a letter which affirms a 26 book New Testament that excluded Hebrews. None of this inspires me with the thought that the currentl Bible is the unchanging divine Word of God.

Originally posted by sebastien
The words of the Bible has clearly remained the same for thousands of years following the discovery of the Dead Sea's scrolls. How do you know that some important information is omitted? How do you know they are important?

Well the Dead Sea scrolls also contained several important works that are not contained in the current Bible. For example the Book of Nahum. Also found were the Books of Tobit, Sirach, Jubilees, portions of the Book of Enoch, and the Testament of Levi. Why aren't these important? Why were these left out? Who decided the make-up of the Bible? God? Or Man?

Originally posted by sebastien
If you have read the Bible several times, I guess you'd have to say that it makes sense. It is why so many people read the book

Well....no. Seems to me to be a cobbled together assmbly of canon works as decided by the Catholic Church.

Originally posted by sebastien
As I have told you before, believing in God is more of a faith and experience thing. You cannot really use a scientific method to prove that God exists - it is a belief. How do you prove that George Washington did exist? What about Alexander the Great? Julius Caesar? Aristotle?

Well for each of the names above, we have several independent primary sources that verify their existence.

Originally posted by sebastien
As I said before, how do you think the world started? It is a product of a design, just like the computer you are using now.
It may have started from a big bang, but how can it be so perfect, where the size is right so there is an atmosphere, and the distance from the sun ensures that it is not too hot or cold?

I don't know how the world started. Nobody does. The fact that God might have started it is as good as theory as any other I suppose. However it's one that can neither be disproved or proved by anyone.

Originally posted by sebastien

As daddy_4_eyes says, whether to believe or not is your choice

Correct. It is.

While I have no idea whether God exists, I have extreme doubts that the Bible is the divine Word of God. Who's to say for example that in fact the Greek Gods exists and the Christian God doesn't? After all the Iliad and the Odyssey are great works of literature just like the Bible.

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by Asgardian
I don't need emotional crutches in the form of any religion.

A lot of folks have said stuff similar to this.

But am I the only one to notice the apparent crutchiness of the statement?

God (Or Asgardian in his case) forbid he needs a crutch after the weekend just gone

PS : I have many crutches ... a need to follow my ambitions and interests, a need to be cared for, understood, respected. I am not a religious bloke but I do tend to think there's a probably a God-like creature in charge, and that is although I don't use that for a crutch, I DO use my satisfaction that I have an idea about it as a crutch.

Anyone who believes can survive without the rest of the world ... simply has not ventured into it.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
*sigh*

I am talking about the human conscious, not the brains activity. A computer sends electrical signals, and performs functions as programmed/designed, but is not conscious.

and where do you think all this is generated from? It is our brains activity. Yes we have a very complex brain, and there are things still not explained by science, but why do you have to try to fill in the gaps with the magical existence of a supreme being?

Good to see you know how life first started, because the rest of the scientific world hasn't been able to conclusively figure it out yet.

Your DNA explanation is overly simplistic. Its like saying Uranium is basically water, as both contain Protons, Neutrons and Electrons. Even the single cell organisms are so complex it is highly unlikely a random set of events would lead to the spontaneous start of life.

i deliberately kept it simple so you could understand, but obviously that didnt work. Our DNA is constructed from 20 or so amino acids. These form the 4 bases of dna - adenine, cytosine, guanine, and thymine (A,C,G,T). They consist of Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen and Oxygen.

These amino acids have been created in a lab, through the use of a "primordial soup" which conssts of (surprise surprise) Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen and Oxygen.

This is as far as science has got in creating life. But the foundation has been layed down. If we can create the building blocks, why cant we take that step further?

Does that make us gods?

How more unlikely is it that there is a supreme being out there? One that transcends the laws of time and space. This creature just so happens to be benevolent, and create humans, as we are, out of nothing In fact, this creature creates the entire universe, from scratch, out of nothing.?

To me, that is much more unlikely thatnRNA, and the later DNA being formed from amino acids.

As I said before, at least keep an open mind that there are other possibilities than the ones you believe in (unless you don't know sh*t about science and are just copying stuff from a book/website).

As i said in my last reply, you need to go research these things before you try to discredit them. I have studied both science and religion (to an extent). and it seems to me that the more you look into organised religion, the more problems you find

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by sebastien
Well, whether you believe it or not is really out of my control.

doesnt mean that it is correct, thought, does it?

Where does it contradicte? The Bible may be about a lot of ideas, but the main point is about how a person can have eternal life. And please don't be so offensive

you are joking right???

ok, obviously you have never read the bible properly. to save time, there is a list of inconsistancies, wanna see em?
goto http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml cause i dont have time to write even a small portion here.

and i wasnt being offensive. You are being over sensitive.

Well, how do you prove they existed? If so, by the same token, Jesus also existed

through archaeological evidence, secondary sources(such as books written about their lives), primary sources (books and such that these people wrote themselves).

I have never denied Jesus existed (as far as we can tell). However whether he was the Son of God is very very debatable

Where does the energy come from in the first place? Evidence of his existance would be the life of Jesus. How can you prove evolution? The idea of evolution is also full of holes. Does that mean our eyes will one day evolve into a pair of binoculars?

where did god come from? The life of Jesus isnt proof of anything...you are told that he was the son of god, there is no proof of that.

Evolution? Look around at the scientific journals for the proofs. There is definate evidence of microevolution at work, and from that we extrapolate into macro (yes i know, it doesnt prove it, but evolution is never claimed to be the absolute truth) Evolution is merely one theory that has at least a handful of backup evidence. Unlike creationist nonsense.

As I said, the existance of God is only a belief. The human race has believed in a God or Gods for a long time (egyptians, Indians, Chinese, etc) , and it shows that we have always had the idea of a superpower or creator.

why then is it portrayed as an ABSOLUTE TRUTH??

Primitives have always relied on the notion of a god to explain the (to them ) unexplainable. Doesnt mean it is right.

I understand some people may find the idea of a God ridicuous,

yup

but science is only a way to explain the world, and I believe there are things you cannot fully explain. It is fine if you don't believe it, but I am only putting forward my ideas on this world

thats fine to put forward ideas, but at least back up your ideas. Dont just say "the bible says so, so it must be right. Or everyone says it is right, so that makes it so.

try thinking for yourself

 

[sebastien]

To save time, why don't you take a look at this
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/god_exists.htm

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by sebastien
To save time, why don't you take a look at this
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/god_exists.htm

bollocks, complete and utter claptrap.

to quote from the very beginning:

"The existence of God or the Self is determined or indicated by the existence of the Upadhis or limiting adjuncts, viz., body, mind, Prana and the senses, because there must be self-consciousness behind their activities"

bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha

"When you do an evil action, you are afraid. Your conscience pricks you. This also proves that God exists and witnesses all your thoughts and actions"

what about your common or garden psychopath?


"The fact that man can conceive the idea of God is in itself a unique proof."

I think of it, therefore it is true?

oh dear, the complete crud that some people will swallow always astounds me.

surely this is a joke website...

 

[Arks]

Atheists or what ever there called, non believers are funny as they have double standards and feal they can explain the reason we are all here. Damn otaku and the other 1% percent of the world must all be so smart, and the rest of the world so blind and dumb.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Arks
Atheists or what ever there called, non believers are funny as they have double standards and feal they can explain the reason we are all here. Damn otaku and the other 1% percent of the world must all be so smart, and the rest of the world so blind and dumb.

try again with the double standards bollocks.

yes, i am right, and you are wrong. Live with it. If you think that 99% of the world are believers, then you are really stupid.

 

[Frodo]

AGNOSTICS RULE !

Well I reckon there is no such thing as an athiest, nobody can believe 100% that there is no god, although thay may be 99% skeptical.

Those that believe 100% in God are faithists, I admire that trait in them.

Those who believe in single religions are fools, and the world is full of them. Religions are institutions at best. They are also the cause of misery and death.

Pearls of wisom I guess.

 

[Milkman]

If there is a god, he's quite obviously a sadist.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Milkman
If there is a god, he's quite obviously a sadist.

and thus the question is answered. Do you pray?

no, because either a) god doesnt exist or b) god exists, but he is a sadist, and thus not worth praying to.

 

[Frodo]

Originally posted by Milkman
If there is a god, he's quite obviously a sadist.

WHY? It's not obvious to me