Drafting

[manicpie]

We bid on two indigenous kids and supposedly were poised to take one before North got in a pick before us.

In fairness, they are bad examples as we never going to get either one

 

[jimmy35]

You see some of these young attacking guys on other teams and it does get a bit disheartening on the misses we’ve had.

 

[Billys Back]

Not sure how you can criticise Hine for Stephenson or Phillips. His job is talent ID and he nailed those two, not his fault that the club (Guy) mismanaged the cap so badly for the past few years that they had to be traded for peanuts. And he netted us DeGoey and Crisp for Beams. The cost to bring Beams back also lands on Guy. Lastly, Daicos was selected in the open draft, so whilst he is a FS player, he was selected in the same way Phillips was, in that everyone else passed on him, so it’s unfair to say Hine’s talent ID had no bearing there.

I’d expect someone who has been in the role for as long as Hine to at least get a top 5/6 pick right.
And Daicos was always going to play for Collingwood.
He may have got Phillips and Langdon right, but he got a hell of a lot wrong.
And you really think Beams was Guy’s doing??? Come on. He had just stepped into the club and was told to make it happen.
2019 and particularly 2020 were the drafts we finally seemto work out how the ‘new’ trading system works.
Prior years it was so frustrating watching other clubs package up picks to those with academy prospects to improve their position. We sat back and seemingly watched seemingly with a lack of ingenuity and understanding.

Hine has not done a great job. Or, as a club, should our expectations be low?

 

[loki04]

Freeman was traded for a very decent pick so we passed on a lot of our mistake to StKilda

Huh?

We traded him for a future 2nd rounder and a upgrade on our pick 68 to pick 63.

You aren't getting the access to top line elites in the 2nd round unless you strike lucky.

 

[Billys Back]

Freeman was traded for a very decent pick so we passed on a lot of our mistake to StKilda

Not by choice. He wanted out, otherwise he probably will still be on the list.

How about using a second pick in the draft (a particularly strong draft) for a rookie?? Swans couldn’t believe their luck!!!

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Huh?

We traded him for a future 2nd rounder and a upgrade on our pick 68 to pick 63.

You aren't getting the access to top line elites in the 2nd round unless you strike lucky.

It mitigated the cost . I said we passed some of the losses to stkilda

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Not by choice. He wanted out, otherwise he probably will still be on the list.

How about using a second pick in the draft (a particularly strong draft) for a rookie?? Swans couldn’t believe their luck!!!

Maybe Freeman wanted out so he could extend his contract by a year or two by going to a new club who thought they were better injury managers than Collingwood

 

[SchuPie]

I’m v frustrated at many deals in the past 6 or so losing multiple 1st and 2nd rounders but I guess what’s done is done

We have to honest where we are at the mid point of the season. If we are a chance for flag then go for it, if not develop our younger players and work out who will be part of our future.

Then be aggressive in trading / drafting to re-shape the list

Further - a bit like we tried to do w Bont a few years ago, I’m all for going in on the player you want. Our mistake was not giving St Kilda picks 6+10 (perhaps more) for pick 3
What would it have taken to get the pick for McDonald? If you think he’ll be the key for the next 10+ years, pay it. I’d rather be angry about something we did rather than something we didn’t or couldn’t do

 

[loki04]

It mitigated the cost . I said we passed some of the losses to stkilda

But when you are talking about lacking that next wave of elites cost mitigation doesn't factor.

You don't have access to those bands of talent in the draft.

 

[No SPIN]

I noted the picks used in trades make it even worse at the bottom of my post?

But its not comprehensive eg Roughead for a pick in the 70’s - and so it’s not a balanced analysis.
Further the majority on your list are still at the club and apart from McClarty, delistings are 3rd or 4th rounders who usually struggle to make the grade.

Finally, this is all meaningless unless you compare us to other clubs - which I suspect will show we are probably not as bad as people think.

I take you point about AT and Beams.

 

[Rusty Beam]

I’d say I agree, however, it was reported during the week that he had inherited the salary cap issues and then was stuck executing what the club wanted. I still wonder what happened with Matt Rendell. Was he moved on because his opinions were too different in terms of list management?
At least Graham Wright has had experience in lost management/recruitment. So I wouldn’t be surprised if he makes changes after assessing what’s happened over the years.

I must admit I don’t think I’ve disagreed with a single thing Rendall has said on radio (SEN) about our list, player contracts, structure or game plan, since he’s left.

The fact that he was given the boot over some others within the footy department is bewildering. From the outside it seems like there is no room for dissenting voices.

 

[manicpie]

So we Trade the Heart of the Team.

So we going to do what North Did just Start from Scratch?

If Grundy is the heart of the team, then our heart needs a transplant

 

[loki04]

why do you chose to focus on picks used in the draft and not picks used in trades?
It’s called List management not Draft management?
The draft is a lottery that’s why using picks to land established players is a preference for successful clubs eg Haw

The core of Hawks premiership teams were drafted they then added the missing ingredients around that.

When Hawks rebuilt recently largely through established trades how have they faired?

You need the ingredients to bake the cake before you can add the cream.

 

[Billys Back]

Hine hasn't really had the picks to work with. The hits we've had we just needed to trade because we stuffed up our contract management, not because of bad drafting. My biggest criticism of Hine is his approach to drafting key position forwards. I feel he undervalues them. But otherwise I think Hine and our drafting is a strength of our footy department.

Wasn’t he responsible for list management until 2 years ago??
He made the decision to trade 2 top 10 picks for Treloar which probably still goes down as the most expensive price paid for a player.
As I said previously, other clubs were able to package up mid to late picks to those with academy kids coming through to move into 1st round of drafts. We sat back and did none of that. We tend to focus on getting 1 player, which doesn’t seem to get executed until the last couple of minutes of the trading period and miss out on everything going on around us. It’s almost as ifwe don’t have any other plans and so fund ourselves with little ultimatum but to accept an ordinary outcome to get the player.
All under Hine’s watch.

 

[Billys Back]

Maybe Freeman wanted out so he could extend his contract by a year or two by going to a new club who thought they were better injury managers than Collingwood

Yes that’s right. How lucky for us. As I said, if it wasn’t for him wanting to leave, he would have still been on our list until 2020.

 

[nahnah]

But its not comprehensive eg Roughead for a pick in the 70’s - and so it’s not a balanced analysis.
Further the majority on your list are still at the club and apart from McClarty, delistings are 3rd or 4th rounders who usually struggle to make the grade.

Finally, this is all meaningless unless you compare us to other clubs - which I suspect will show we are probably not as bad as people think.

I take you point about AT and Beams.

- it is a thread titled drafting, how we have used picks in the draft over the last 5 years not including this year because it’s obviously way too early for them to get a game + no VFL form to judge
- not worried about other clubs, maybe strength of draft is a valid point but overall I don’t take solace in the fact my club may draft better than a team like Carlton or North

 

[BEEG]

Hine was list Manager and doing recruitment for a few years there dont forget.

So some of the picks he should of had he traded out at very high cost when list manager. He also played a big part in why the cap got screwed in his time as list manager, people forget Ned Guy inherited it you remember that discussion we had years ago over that leaked picture on the board...

Treloar 2 pick 7s.
Murray pick 30.
Aish 2 second rounders.

Can add Beams deal too which he played a part in.
Beams 2 x firsts.

Schaz and Freeman draft really hurt us.
Refusal to draft in KPF prospects early in draft.
Refusal to look at late pick xfactor types preference for hard working gut runners (safer bets but less dynamic and lower upsides).

Again I doubt its an id problem, rather a philosophical one over what a team needs to succeed.

This will be the reason where struggling to win games in 3 years.

Can't take that huge loss with picks and not expect it to come back to hurt us.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Our drafting and trading, even our contracts are a complete shitshow, it’s so bad and there are so many painful examples of poor decision making that I can’t bear to think about them any more.

We just have to pray, to a God I don’t even believe exists, that one of the guys we drafted this year turns out to be an actual gun and then Nicky D is what we think he might be.

 

[stormskye]

We have 2 picks mid season, to say we need to nail both is an understatement.

That said, I doubt there’s any ready made mids, key forwards just “floating” around waiting for mid season draft

 

[Quicky]

Wasn’t he responsible for list management until 2 years ago??
He made the decision to trade 2 top 10 picks for Treloar which probably still goes down as the most expensive price paid for a player.
As I said previously, other clubs were able to package up mid to late picks to those with academy kids coming through to move into 1st round of drafts. We sat back and did none of that. We tend to focus on getting 1 player, which doesn’t seem to get executed until the last couple of minutes of the trading period and miss out on everything going on around us. It’s almost as ifwe don’t have any other plans and so fund ourselves with little ultimatum but to accept an ordinary outcome to get the player.
All under Hine’s watch.

Hine is no longer list manager so we shouldn't be judging his ongoing employment as a recruiter as such. The only thing of relevance is his ability to identify talent and he's in the best 3 or 4 in the league at that. I'm not arguing he didn't do dumb shit as list manager, but what seems to go over heads is that the club already addressed that by removing him from the role a couple of years back. Hine is a good recruiter, and with Wright as head of the football department, I think he will get some different strategic direction in terms of how we approach the draft. Hine doesn't work in a silo.

 

[No SPIN]

The core of Hawks premiership teams were drafted they then added the missing ingredients around that.

When Hawks rebuilt recently largely through established trades how have they faired?

You need the ingredients to bake the cake before you can add the cream.

True - but in the recent past its well acknowledged Clarko does not rate drafting, and prefers using picks to trade. So any “draft only” analysis of Hawks list management looks bad.
That’s why you need to look at draft AND trade strategy to assess list management.

 

[No SPIN]

- it is a thread titled drafting, how we have used picks in the draft over the last 5 years not including this year because it’s obviously way too early for them to get a game + no VFL form to judge
- not worried about other clubs, maybe strength of draft is a valid point but overall I don’t take solace in the fact my club may draft better than a team like Carlton or North

everything is relative - you have no perspective on an a belief unless there’s a comparison.
By ignoring this, you can’t argue against someone taking the opposite view that our drafting has been great.
So objectivity using comparisons to other clubs is highly relevant to getting true perspective.

 

[magpies42]

There is one tiny thing you overlooked, and that is that he continues to pick players who can't dispose of the ball properly. do you think those players came to the club as elite disposers of the ball and then we turned them into sh*t disposers of the ball?

Tough to pick players that can dispose of the ball elitly, win the ball, tackle, have agility, height, have leadership qualities, be good in front of the media and be woke AF citizens with third round picks and later. That is the pass mark for Collingwood supporters like yourself...hyper critical. He has brought in heaps of good kicks over his time either through trading or the draft. A good kick doesn’t guarantee success. Just off the top of my head...freeman, sharenberg, dick, young.

4 grand finals over his time says that he’s done an exceptional job recruiting.

 

[loki04]

True - but in the recent past its well acknowledged Clarko does not rate drafting, and prefers using picks to trade. So any “draft only” analysis of Hawks list management looks bad.
That’s why you need to look at draft AND trade strategy to assess list management.

Its one area I disagree with him on picks vs trades as a way to build a list when rebuilding.

I reckon his recent results may change his theory on that, maybe took for granted the talent he had at his disposal when first taking over the job which was largely through draft and when adding the trades it skewed his perception.

 

[manicpie]

Tough to pick players that can dispose of the ball elitly, win the ball, tackle, have agility, height, have leadership qualities, be good in front of the media and be woke AF citizens with third round picks and later. That is the pass mark for Collingwood supporters like yourself...hyper critical. He has brought in heaps of good kicks over his time either through trading or the draft. A good kick doesn’t guarantee success. Just off the top of my head...freeman, sharenberg, dick, young.

4 grand finals over his time says that he’s done an exceptional job recruiting.

Ridiculous, Sydney can do it. Geelong can do it. Hawthorn can do it. Port adelaide can do it and there are probably others as well. There is nothing special about Hine and his record isn't that good. About the woke crap, don't really give a crap about it, I'm more interested in their ability than what they do in their spare time. Unfortunately, it's supporters like you who refuse to see the problems that are dragging our once great club down. We need a completely new direction