News EFC asks AFL and ASADA for probe into own training regime

[BrunoV]

You think a reasonably minded person wouldn't have concerns about a cutting edge sports science program administered by a bloke who injected cows blood into athletes?

The players clearly had concerns about the program.

I feel for them, but according to the law, if they have been administered prohibited substances in this scheme they will go down.

And then sue the shit out of the club for lost earnings and reputation.

No one batted an eye when Max Rooke and Chapman went to Germany to get injected with calves blood.

 

[Doss]

The only thing they could do if they were worried is take the substance to get tested independently themselves, but whether that is reasonable is the question.

Yeah, this is the thing. If WADA/ASADA really expects every player to go to the extent of getting everything independently verified, it calls into question why the approval and expertise of club doctors and sports scientists is needed at all.

This will really damage the 'brand' of sports science, I think. A player can hardly be blamed for placing their trust in the assurances of someone who is experienced and qualified in the area- which most players are not.

Players across the AFL and indeed in other codes could hardly be blamed for having huge doubts about placing that trust now, though.

 

[Malifice]

That will lead to some very, very messy court cases then. Common sense will prevail if this hypothetical is the case and the players will get off.

They wont get off. They will be suspended if they test positive. They will also likely be entered on ASADA register.

They will then sue the shit out of the club.

There are no messy court cases here. The Australian Sports Tribunal wont allow a player to avoid sanctions as the result of imbibing perfromance enhancing drugs during a sports science program designed to 'push the limits' simply by signing a waiver.

If the players have a gripe, it should be directed at their employer who put them in the program, employed the dodgy sports science guys, signed of on the gear they were taking via a waiver and thus got them into this mess.

 

[Tiger Claw]

Some here seem to think the ACC report refers to Essendon or maybe the AFL but none of that is said directly it's all 'between the lines' and from when I 'read between the lines' I only saw things as being pointed toward both the AFL and NRL.

From quotes some have made above I think it could equally be said they were refering to an NRL club.

Just saying because you really don't want to be wishing things down on yourselves.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Was the AFL compelled to sign up with ASADA?

 

[Doss]

Was the AFL compelled to sign up with ASADA?

Would say it was tied in with the ability of the AFL to have access to federal and state funding, among other things.

 

[Malifice]

Some here seem to think the ACC report refers to Essendon or maybe the AFL but none of that is said directly it's all 'between the lines' and from when I 'read between the lines' I only saw things as being pointed toward both the AFL and NRL.

From quotes some have made above I think it could equally be said they were refering to an NRL club.

Just saying because you really don't want to be wishing things down on yourselves.

It doesnt directly say Essendon, but we all know who thyre talking about.

I like your optimism tough!

 

[The Speaker]

It doesnt directly say Essendon, but we all know who thyre talking about.

I like your optimism tough!

Do we? Any reason it has to be an AFL club at all?

 

[4#Didak#4]

Clearly it was forseeable that what they were taking was suspicious; the players expressed concerns over the program throughout and demanded waivers from the club in response. If anything this demonstrates culpability.

There will be penalties & liabilities for the players don't get me wrong its just at what level and how it all came about.

If you interpret that the players seeking assurances that what they are taking is above board is actually an admission of guilt or culpability - I would take exception to that. I think the fact they questioned it and the sought written advice that it was OK is a good & responsible thing to do and that they were not trying to hide it or succumb to their employers requests.

Whether they went far enough in their investigation/protests is another thing, but in those group think situations where there is a controlling entity with a lot of leverage its not as simple as "they colluded" to take substances. While it doesn't excuse the "crime" it does have a huge impact on possible penalties.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

This just from a news wire discussing ACC findings

He said non-analytical methods, such as the investigation which
uncovered Lance Armstrong's systematic performance-enhancing drug
use, was a "far more intelligent approach to catching people".
Mr Fahey called on athletes who knew of or were involved in
doping to come forward.
Under the WADA code they can earn a 75 per cent penalty
reduction for assisting an inquiry, an incentive that helped
authorities gather the evidence to bring down Armstrong.

 

[Malifice]

Do we? Any reason it has to be an AFL club at all?

Fair enough; its open to speculation who they are talking about.

But on the balance of probabilities Im certainly leaning a certain way.

 

[Tiger Claw]

Fair enough; its open to speculation who they are talking about.

But on the balance of probabilities Im certainly leaning a certain way.

Well I think it's equally probable it could be and NRL team.

To be honest I don't see the coaches/Medics at Essendon being involved in this. The Mad Scientist is a different thing but that's not quite how things were described.

 

[Malifice]

There will be penalties & liabilities for the players don't get me wrong its just at what level and how it all came about.

If you interpret that the players seeking assurances that what they are taking is above board is actually an admission of guilt or culpability - I would take exception to that. I think the fact they questioned it and the sought written advice that it was OK is a good & responsible thing to do and that they were not trying to hide it or succumb to their employers requests.

Whether they went far enough in their investigation/protests is another thing, but in those group think situations where there is a controlling entity with a lot of leverage its not as simple as "they colluded" to take substances. While it doesn't excuse the "crime" it does have a huge impact on possible penalties.

No one is suggesting a deliberate doping program engaged with by the players or expressly authorised by the club. It looks more like a rogue element at the club was obtaining gear illegally though criminal sources, and this gear was either contaminated or blatantly unlawful.

The issue here is that it was pushing it. And the bubble had to burst and heads had to roll. ASADA wont be treating anyone lightly, and will be handing out big whacks to stop these practices and ensure that future players dont fall victim to this shit again.

Sadly it appears as if Essendon were the last one standing when the music stopped.

I really feel for the players here. They are the ones that will burn for this.

This just from a news wire discussing ACC findings

Why the club came out on the front foot before it all broke.

Compliance can help greatly with lessening sanctions.

 

[Kong]

Some here seem to think the ACC report refers to Essendon or maybe the AFL but none of that is said directly it's all 'between the lines' and from when I 'read between the lines' I only saw things as being pointed toward both the AFL and NRL.

From quotes some have made above I think it could equally be said they were refering to an NRL club.

Just saying because you really don't want to be wishing things down on yourselves.

Wouldn't that be a huge relief for AFL fans?

 

[Malifice]

Wouldn't that be a huge relief for AFL fans?

Reckon there may be more than the one NRL team busy on the shredder over the past few days.

 

[Kong]

It doesnt directly say Essendon, but we all know who thyre talking about.

I like your optimism tough!

You're really depressing to have in this thread, you know.

 

[4#Didak#4]

I still think that Dank is the guy pulling all the strings & misleading everyone, but thats yet to be seen. It doesn't absolve anyone of punishment but it does give a reason for the behaviour outside of the notion that the entire EFC colluded to cheat. I cannot believe anyone to be that stupid. I am sure there is a lot more than meets the eye.

Here is a scenario:
-EFC employ Dank who is recommended by coaches - namely Robinson, Thompson & Hirdy.
-Dank has a secret weapon its all hush hush.
-He presents his box of pills or however it works.
-The EFC takes this & tests it, its approved, its clear, its OK per all authorities.
-The paperwork is done and is all completely valid
-The drugs need to be administered on a large scale - its not just one pill its presumably a large quantity to service a playing list.
-Dank aquires a large volume at the clubs expense.
-Each pill can't be tested (or should it have been?)
-Dank supplies all the players
-The EFC questions payments made by Dank to suspicious sources that he says is for the drugs but can't be substantiated.
-The EFC fire Dank
-The EFC investigate the payments and find the drugs have come from a non approved Asian source.
-The Asian product is in fact completely illegal
-The EFC management collectively wet themselves & report it

Who is to blame & what are the consequences?

 

[Malifice]

You're really depressing to have in this thread, you know.

Sorry mate.

I was trying to be objective, but perhaps optimism is the best medicine at the moment!

 

[Atavistic]

Well I think it's equally probable it could be and NRL team.

To be honest I don't see the coaches/Medics at Essendon being involved in this. The Mad Scientist is a different thing but that's not quite how things were described.

That's what I've been thinking - that it could easily be Manly who are the main focus of the ACC investigation and that Essendon - by association with Dank - has also been scrutinised.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

They wont get off. They will be suspended if they test positive. They will also likely be entered on ASADA register.

They will then sue the shit out of the club.

There are no messy court cases here. The Australian Sports Tribunal wont allow a player to avoid sanctions as the result of imbibing perfromance enhancing drugs during a sports science program designed to 'push the limits' simply by signing a waiver.

If the players have a gripe, it should be directed at their employer who put them in the program, employed the dodgy sports science guys, signed of on the gear they were taking via a waiver and thus got them into this mess.

If the players took every reasonable step to ensure their supplements where legal (borderline means nothing, it's either legal or it's not) which in actual terms means asking for the club to check with WADA, state clearly what the drugs are and have both parties sign that those drugs are all that will be taken and then have the drugs switched on them (which is the hypothetical we're discussing) and cop a ban for it, it will e a total miscarriage of justice, and the AFL, AFLPA and other organisations will come after WADA/ASADA.

As the barrister said on SEN, ignorance is not an excuse, but taking every reasonable measure to ensure the drugs were legal is.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

No one is suggesting a deliberate doping program engaged with by the players or expressly authorised by the club. It looks more like a rogue element at the club was obtaining gear illegally though criminal sources, and this gear was either contaminated or blatantly unlawful.

The first sentence is the worst-case scenario, the second is fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, unless, as you have repeatedly insinuated, said gear was then administered to players. The reported calm inside the club suggests they are confident this was not the case.

 

[Tiger Claw]

Wouldn't that be a huge relief for AFL fans?

Not really. I see it as saying both the AFL and NRL have problems. In that I think all AFL club's need to have a hard look at themselves.

I don't think it's clear cut in what the ACC are saying that it is necessarily about Essendon.

 

[Atavistic]

Not really. I see it as saying both the AFL and NRL have problems. In that I think all AFL club's need to have a hard look at themselves.

I don't think it's clear cut in what the ACC are saying that it is necessarily about Essendon.

^ Why can't all opposition supporters be like this guy?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Don't kid yourselves, every club has the potential to be dragged into this.

 

[The Speaker]

perhaps optimism is the best medicine at the moment!

I'd prefer vitamins.