Roast Fremantle = Fail

[jerry springer]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

Headland and Mcpharlin to name two

Headland never ever recaptured his 2002 form when he polled 16 votes.never went near it

maybe he never realized that playing with Voss/lappin/black/Akermanis and power would be more beneficial to his career.

to put it bluntly, he went home to WA on big coin and over time became a injury-riddled shadow of his former self

 

[The Night Shift]

I'm not really following the umpiring thing but otherwise an interesting thread. Lets hope new season Freo' can really bring it to Collingwood so we have a classic game(s). Our only match is all the way down at round 23.. at Subi, which you guys always play well at. Lets hope both clubs are FLYING by that round.

 

[HowieD]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

This year was different, except most of their arguments were all around how Collingwood had so many games at the MCG and that sort of crap. Always the same arguments but none of them could say what the actual advantages were. It was just like reading out random stats and then saying how unfair it was.

Would love to play the first 14 rounds of the season without having to leave WA...

...Amusing OP. Good discussions afterwards. Everyone's fans will seem arrogant at times. Hell, half the Collingwood supporters in this thread are arrogant about their chances next season, and why shouldn't they be? It's all part of the fun.

 

[jerry springer]

freo do have a bright future though.i said in a another thread that they really should aim for Top 2 next year(easier said than done i do realize).That way they can get 2 games at home in the finals with the week off and maybe then a crack at the GF.

failing that if they make the top 4 they must win their first game to get the home final(and week off)

I cant see them winning a big prelim in Melbourne at the G - yet.

I think 2012 could be their year though

the only slight nagging doubt i have is Pav's performances in big finals(or big games for that matter).

 

[Bonuspoints]

Unfortunately mate it looks like you guys could be the Crows of 2011. Barlow and Hadyn out for most of the year and now Morabito. Injuries to key players makes it difficult to get in position for a strong finals campaign.

I don't mind the Dockers and I reckon they'll be strong contenders in a couple of years. They're stockpiling some good young talent and making the most of the rookie list and mid to late draft picks, which is a good sign. Seem to be putting together are strong football department too.

 

[Pera]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

How would free kick stats be relevant? I'm not saying that the umpires you seem to get regularly favour Collingwood because I don't think they do. The umpires don't favour Collingwood its the AFL that does. The umpires definately favour West Coast (not deliberately but they still so) but not Collingwood, as far as I can see.

As I said before, you get the best umpires. They are the best because they are consistent and fair. That means that your players know that ... "If I do this then this will happen". For other teams it's a case of "If I do this then this might happen or something else might happen". They can't be as certain with the umpires that are not as good. Umpires lists are like club player lists. You could rank them 1 --> 32 if you wanted to.

The three umpires you had for GF2 were the same as you had for GF1 and also the same three as you had in your Preliminary Final. Chamberlain you in fact got every week of the finals.

The reason they umpired so well is because the players knew the umpires and knew that whenever they did something wrong they would get caught so they didn't do anything wrong. It was a case of the players responding to the umpires as much as anything else.

Have you thought its maybe because we play a blockbuster every second week?

You have great spectacles like:

ANZAC Day
Queens Birthday
TWO regular season blockbusters against the Cats.
TWO against the scum which gather huge crowds.
ETC ETC.

You're of course going to have the best umpire officiating on the most important games.

BOLD Part: It goes both ways. Your're saying we get accustomed to the 'good' umpires interpretations but then it would go the other way with the other clubs getting the 'not so good' umpires understanding their interpretations.

And if we are so good with understanding how the umpires are going to operate, why did we lose more free kick counts than won? I'd think we were on the losing end of free kicks throughout the majority of games. Can't be arsed on a Sunday looking up the stats but id put my house on it.

Free kicks and umpires never lose/win games.

 

[CamTinley]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

Have you thought its maybe because we play a blockbuster every second week?

You have great spectacles like:

ANZAC Day
Queens Birthday
TWO regular season blockbusters against the Cats.
TWO against the scum which gather huge crowds.
ETC ETC.

You're of course going to have the best umpire officiating on the most important games.

BOLD Part: It goes both ways. Your're saying we get accustomed to the 'good' umpires interpretations but then it would go the other way with the other clubs getting the 'not so good' umpires understanding their interpretations.

And if we are so good with understanding how the umpires are going to operate, why did we lose more free kick counts than won? I'd think we were on the losing end of free kicks throughout the majority of games. Can't be arsed on a Sunday looking up the stats but id put my house on it.

Free kicks and umpires never lose/win games.

Players can't adapt to an "not-so-good" umpire. If they (the umpire) gives random "sometimes this way sometimes that way decisions" it just causes confusion and players become tentative. I respect umpires a huge amount it's just that no matter how hard they try some are better than others.

Collingwood get the best ones and then get the the same ones in the finals, usually as a team. It's an advantage.

For about the third time I don't think the umpires favour Collingwood in the free kick department. The reason your free kick tally is skewed because you have Darren Jolly who gives away about as many frees as Buddy Franklin.

Umpires and free kicks do cost you games. As an umpire your biggest nightmare is giving a decision that affects the result. AFL is nowhere near as bad as soccer or cricket for umpires potentially affecting the result.

The most crucial decision of the season was given by Matt Stevic in Geelong's first final when Ling kicked the "winning" goal but that free kick was given for the late tackle and Geelong lost. That changed the whole finals structure. Stevic was the umpire Collingwood got the most in 2010 (7 times in the home-and-away). Geelong only got him twice (Round 19 + 20). Stevic may pay that sort of thing all the time but Geelong players wouldn't know that as much as Collingwood players would.

 

[CamTinley]

Sorry it is Leigh Brown more than Darren Jolly giving away the frees.

L Brown 37 FA compared to 17 FF
D Jolly 48 FA compared to 36 FF
L Davis 33 FA compared to 19 FF

 

[Lockyer24]

I conclude that your umpiring analysis proves nothing.

Are you related to Shane from Dockerland?

 

[Swooop]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

Players can't adapt to an "not-so-good" umpire. If they (the umpire) gives random "sometimes this way sometimes that way decisions" it just causes confusion and players become tentative. I respect umpires a huge amount it's just that no matter how hard they try some are better than others.

Collingwood get the best ones and then get the the same ones in the finals, usually as a team. It's an advantage.

For about the third time I don't think the umpires favour Collingwood in the free kick department. The reason your free kick tally is skewed because you have Darren Jolly who gives away about as many frees as Buddy Franklin.

Umpires and free kicks do cost you games. As an umpire your biggest nightmare is giving a decision that affects the result. AFL is nowhere near as bad as soccer or cricket for umpires potentially affecting the result.

The most crucial decision of the season was given by Matt Stevic in Geelong's first final when Ling kicked the "winning" goal but that free kick was given for the late tackle and Geelong lost. That changed the whole finals structure. Stevic was the umpire Collingwood got the most in 2010 (7 times in the home-and-away). Geelong only got him twice (Round 19 + 20). Stevic may pay that sort of thing all the time but Geelong players wouldn't know that as much as Collingwood players would.

I get what you're saying Cam, about good umpires being more predictable with their decisions, hence the players may get to know what they can and can't do. In theory.

I guess the question is though, does that translate to in practice, in the heat of the moment...do the players subconsciously keep tabs on who the ump is today and which of the three is nearest by?

Also, is this something Collingwood gets a significant higher number of times to say the other top sides, who probably also draw the better umpires to showcase the games.

I'm not proffering an opinion either way, just asking the question.

Wouldn't the guys in WA and SA tend to get the local umpires and perhaps draw a local rule interpretation advantage also? Not sure who umpires the Brisbane games, but Lions tend to get a fair go, whoever they play.

Agree with your theory, just not entirely sold on the significance in practice, where one team would get a benefit over the rest.

 

[Swooop]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

The most crucial decision of the season was given by Matt Stevic in Geelong's first final when Ling kicked the "winning" goal but that free kick was given for the late tackle and Geelong lost. That changed the whole finals structure. Stevic was the umpire Collingwood got the most in 2010 (7 times in the home-and-away). Geelong only got him twice (Round 19 + 20). Stevic may pay that sort of thing all the time but Geelong players wouldn't know that as much as Collingwood players would.

PS as an umpire yourself, I'd be interested to know your interpretation of the Mooney / Ling decision.

Re the Pie rucks, Leroy tends to shepherd in the ruck a bit, gives away lots that way...but Jolly I reckon was very, very hard done by.

Leon gave a way lots cos he lacked pace to get to the ball first, and also possibly was under instruction to keep the ball in the forward line and stop any quick exits, to the point of giving away a free to slow the play.

 

[Ed D]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

The advantages of Collingwood playing at the MCG is that even if it's a Melbourne or a North Melbourne home game, Collingwood supporters will outnumber/out- cheer/out-boo the opposition supporters 2 to 1, or more. It's the crowd that gives a team the home ground advantage not the players being familiar with the way the grass is mown.

An example is the Western Derby. They're all played at Subiaco but a Fremantle home game means 40,000 Fremantle supporters verses 2,000 Eagles supporters and the opposite for when it's a West Coast home game. Of course the crowd will make a difference.

Crowd noise is the advantage? You're saying Collingwood away games at the MCG where the opposition home side is based in Melbourne are at a disadvantage because more Collingwood fans cheer?

You do realise Collingwood averaged something like 65k+ supporters a game and 75k+ at the MCG? So you're saying if we played games at other stadiums in Victoria we wouldn't get Magpie fans in, or the ratio would be different? Or you're saying we'd get less fans to the game and they'd be sell outs, meaning a lot of people would never be able to watch Collingwood games live?

Outside the MCG, which home and away ground in Vic can accommodate 75k+ fans? None perhaps? Docklands holds something like 48k, so why would opposition teams (especially ones who's home games are also the MCG) turn their back on money to play at a smaller ground?

You need to realise that the away games we played at the MCG were either against teams who also play their games at the MCG, or teams who requested to move their home games to the MCG to make more money.

And then you're saying it's an advantage because Collingwood fans can cheer louder? Very strange argument...

 

[Ed D]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

Would love to play the first 14 rounds of the season without having to leave WA...

It would probably happen if there were 10 WA sides and only 7 other teams in the league. Your complaints should be to the AFL about where the teams are located, not directed at Collingwood because they're playing home and away games against the 9 other teams in the same state.

 

[Pera]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

Players can't adapt to an "not-so-good" umpire. If they (the umpire) gives random "sometimes this way sometimes that way decisions" it just causes confusion and players become tentative. I respect umpires a huge amount it's just that no matter how hard they try some are better than others.

Collingwood get the best ones and then get the the same ones in the finals, usually as a team. It's an advantage.

For about the third time I don't think the umpires favour Collingwood in the free kick department. The reason your free kick tally is skewed because you have Darren Jolly who gives away about as many frees as Buddy Franklin.

Umpires and free kicks do cost you games. As an umpire your biggest nightmare is giving a decision that affects the result. AFL is nowhere near as bad as soccer or cricket for umpires potentially affecting the result.

The most crucial decision of the season was given by Matt Stevic in Geelong's first final when Ling kicked the "winning" goal but that free kick was given for the late tackle and Geelong lost. That changed the whole finals structure. Stevic was the umpire Collingwood got the most in 2010 (7 times in the home-and-away). Geelong only got him twice (Round 19 + 20). Stevic may pay that sort of thing all the time but Geelong players wouldn't know that as much as Collingwood players would.

Im sorry, but that is just foolish. If an umpiring decision can cost a side a game then any decision at any given time through out a game can be considered as costing a team the game.

The argument you are posing is so ridiculous, i just cant produce a response to it. Opposition supporters look for any sort of little reason to make our accomplishments sour and this is just another failed attempt. Bigfooty really is quite fascinating.

 

[CamTinley]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

I get what you're saying Cam, about good umpires being more predictable with their decisions, hence the players may get to know what they can and can't do. In theory.

I guess the question is though, does that translate to in practice, in the heat of the moment...do the players subconsciously keep tabs on who the ump is today and which of the three is nearest by?

Also, is this something Collingwood gets a significant higher number of times to say the other top sides, who probably also draw the better umpires to showcase the games.

I'm not proffering an opinion either way, just asking the question.

Wouldn't the guys in WA and SA tend to get the local umpires and perhaps draw a local rule interpretation advantage also? Not sure who umpires the Brisbane games, but Lions tend to get a fair go, whoever they play.

Agree with your theory, just not entirely sold on the significance in practice, where one team would get a benefit over the rest.

I know from experience that players learn pretty quickly about the what and what not to do depending on who the umpire is.

I honestly think Collingwood get the best umpires. I'm sure they don't request them but they get them. That's a fact.

I don't think those umpires favour Collingwood at all. They have the ability to watch what happens and block out a whole lot of other information that might affect their decision making.

I don't blame the AFL for giving the big games to the best umpires. It acts as a reward to those umpires and also ensures that the game doesn't get stuffed up with "howlers" being given too regularly.

The AFL needs to make the spread more even though. Some umpires get certain teams 8 times a season (Melbourne teams).

The umpires do favour the West Coast Eagles at home. It's unintentional but they do. It's all to do with the noise. When an eastern states team plays in Perth they are lucky to have 1,000 supporters against 40,000 Eagles supporters. The crowd calls/screams for Eagles free kicks and is silent for the opposition free kicks.

This situation is to the detriment of the West Coast Eagles because their players have changed their game and try to get their kicks from free kicks instead of getting them honestly.

In 2010 ...

Matt Priddis got 1/4 of his kicks from free kicks
Adam Selwood more than a quarter of his kicks from free kicks
Daniel Kerr 1/3 of his kicks from free kicks

Compared to Dane Swan who got 1 in 20 kicks from free kicks
Gary Ablett Jnr 1 in 15 kicks from free kicks

When the Eagles midfielders get the ball their first reaction is to look at the ground and then charge head first into the closest opposition player.

On only four occasions has a non-WA teams got more free kicks than the Eagles at Subiaco in the last four years. St Kilda 3 times and Geelong once.

No team got more free kicks than the WCE in a game at Subiaco in 2010 or 2008.

The most recent games have been the worst with the Eagles getting double the number of free kicks of their opposition at Subiaco.

R 17 v Carlton - Carlton received 14 FF against 27 FA
R 19 v Brisbane - Brisbane received 12 FF against 24 FA
R 21 v North Melb - NM received 13 FF against 27 FA

West Coast lost all those games

When the Eagles play away from home their opposition gets more free kicks than they do.

 

[CamTinley]

I conclude that your umpiring analysis proves nothing.

Are you related to Shane from Dockerland?

No, I've never looked at Dockerland.

 

[CamTinley]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

PS as an umpire yourself, I'd be interested to know your interpretation of the Mooney / Ling decision.

Re the Pie rucks, Leroy tends to shepherd in the ruck a bit, gives away lots that way...but Jolly I reckon was very, very hard done by.

Leon gave a way lots cos he lacked pace to get to the ball first, and also possibly was under instruction to keep the ball in the forward line and stop any quick exits, to the point of giving away a free to slow the play.

I think the Mooney decision was fine. If it didn't get paid it would have been fine too. You get those 50/50's.

 

[leungtl]

Re: Fremntle = Fail

Can we please stop with the umpiring stuff (start another thread) and keep it Dockers related in this thread... it's been a good read otherwise!

 

[jmadrox]

freo do have a bright future though.i said in a another thread that they really should aim for Top 2 next year(easier said than done i do realize).That way they can get 2 games at home in the finals with the week off and maybe then a crack at the GF.

failing that if they make the top 4 they must win their first game to get the home final(and week off)

I cant see them winning a big prelim in Melbourne at the G - yet.

I think 2012 could be their year though

the only slight nagging doubt i have is Pav's performances in big finals(or big games for that matter).

good post, i agree with the first part, not with the Pav comment. See first game against Gelong (where we won) last year. He lead the team to victory that day.

Thats where is ee the main advantage of JA. If he is having a good day, he will draw the better defender, freeing up Pav/Mayne, if he isn't he will get a second rate defender and hopefully still score a few. I think we have a good crop of small forwards now, so we should have a few people to crumb for him.

All in all an interesting thread. Dont care for the ump discussion, but WRT the travel / home games @ MCG, like it or not, it IS an advantage Collingwood have. Sitting in an airport / plane for 5+ hours after running your legs off for 2 hours is not a great recovery. I know they dont just jump on immediately, but the interrupted rest is not great.

it is not an advantage that the AFL give you, more so one your are lust lucky to have. So for equality, the standard West Aust opinion is that we should have some other considerations, is, not 6/5 day turn arounds after playing away.

Now we have Virgin ( oh yay) and it could get worse.

 

[daics_35]

I like the dockers and they have every right to be happy with themselves and they are on the way up. Terrible news about Morrabito, hopefully he can come back and play for Freo in the finals. I love the way Freo play and I am a massive fan of Harvey. Good luck in 2011 to Freo.

 

[CamTinley]

I've given up on explaining the umpire situation but the home ground issue is very relevant for Fremantle v Collingwood.

Since Fremantle have entered the competition we have played Collingwood 20 times in home and away matches.

Fremantle has received 7 home games
Collingwood has received 13 home games.

To balance this up Fremantle would have to play the next 6 Collingwood v Fremantle games at Subiaco/Pattersons.

 

[Ed D]

That is an interesting point. I wonder how the Collingwood v West Coast games look, because really we should be playing in WA at least once a year.

 

[peppy la pew]

I hope that we absolutely hammer these pigs during the season and maybe even in a final would be the ultimate!

Well well, a toothless feral living up to the stereotype.

It's a shame you are in the minority matey

 

[Breakthelines]

Well well, a toothless feral living up to the stereotype.

It's a shame you are in the minority matey

hahahaha, nice assumption.

Stereotyps aren't always accurate.

 

[Swooop]

Well well, a toothless feral living up to the stereotype.

It's a shame you are in the minority matey

TBH peppy, I think breakthelines was just being a bit theatrical with his language to stir the pot a bit, get some robust discussion happening.

I think we're all a bit bored in the off season, and need a fix of footy.

And he succeeeded...almost 100 posts!! The net result was a pretty interesting thread with some great discussion...i think we know each others footy club and posters a bit better now and most of the chat has been great.

Given you had the Morabito injury right in the midst of all this, I think most would say your posters handled themselves really well and have successfully dispelled the provocative title thread assertions!