Gary Ablett Jr holds the all time record for the most Brownlow votes. Dangerfield, Selwood and Pendlebury are top 10.

[Belnakor]

I think ego will drive Dangerfield longer as long as he doesn’t physically break down.

seems like he is beginning to break down a bit, and his explosive pace is dropping off a tad. He is still a beast in the contest though.

 

[Belnakor]

Well done to Sam Mitchell for having the most votes without actually winning the award.

yeah no

 

[Belnakor]

Not sure he catches Ablett though if he's not in the middle full-time.

yeah thats the thing isn't it, not many permanent forwards get many votes. Look at people in recent years like Eddie Betts he kicked 75 goals for the year and got 10 brownlow votes lol

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

yeah thats the thing isn't it, not many permanent forwards get many votes. Look at people in recent years like Eddie Betts he kicked 75 goals for the year and got 10 brownlow votes lol

66 goals during the regular season

Polled in seven of ten games in which he kicked 4. Took a quick look and Dangerfield has polled in five of the seven games in which he’s kicked 4 since moving to Geelong. Had 20+ touches in all five as well though.

 

[OnlyPowerForever]

yeah thats the thing isn't it, not many permanent forwards get many votes. Look at people in recent years like Eddie Betts he kicked 75 goals for the year and got 10 brownlow votes lol

And he's got the profile and highlight reel.

There's been some shocking ignorance of star forwards over last 20-30 years, not just recently.

 

[Belnakor]

66 goals during the regular season

Polled in seven of ten games in which he kicked 4. Took a quick look and Dangerfield has polled in five of the seven games in which he’s kicked 4 since moving to Geelong. Had 20+ touches in all five as well though.

its a decent rule of thumb that key forward getting 5 will typically get the 3.

the problem is even a player that kicks 100 in a season is unlikely to kick 5 goals in 12 seperate games for the season

 

[OnlyPowerForever]

its a decent rule of thumb that key forward getting 5 will typically get the 3.

the problem is even a player that kicks 100 in a season is unlikely to kick 5 goals in 12 seperate games for the season

Should happen, but the midfield favourites tag still holds.

One biased example I know, Tredrea had a stunning year, kicked 84 goals with 6 goals or more on 5 occasions in 2004.
Didn't get the 3 votes in any of them. Not even with 12 or 15 marks, or with 22 possessions.
Judd polled more (7) in 3 games with less than 20 possessions.
Funny now, wasn't at the time.

 

[Belnakor]

Should happen, but the midfield favourites tag still holds.

One biased example I know, Tredrea had a stunning year, kicked 84 goals with 6 goals or more on 5 occasions in 2004.
Didn't get the 3 votes in any of them. Not even with 12 or 15 marks, or with 22 possessions.
Judd polled more (7) in 3 games with less than 20 possessions.
Funny now, wasn't at the time.

seems like these days someone like Tredrea would get rewarded alot more than previously.

 

[Brunswick St]

Votes per game (adj):

Bunton 1.04
Fyfe 0.98
Moss 0.95
Dangerfield 0.88

Bunton won three Brownlows and three Sandovers in absolutely terrible teams. By modern standards - which favour players from winning teams - he is unlikely to have won any of them.

That's actually pretty common of the multiple Brownlow winners. Both Reynolds and Skilton won their awards in dreadful teams. Stewart though was the exception.

It's interesting because these awards are so intrinsically tied to their reputations and legacies and yet a shift in favour of winning teams (which of course eventually happened) would have denied them completely. Also interesting to think about how Brownlows would be allocated if they continued to favour losing teams - would we be saying goodbye to three-time Brownlow Medalist Nathan Jones?

My grandfather played with Haydn Bunten at Fitzroy, and said he was the best player of all time without a shadow of doubt (although he never saw anyone beyond 1985). At a time when the Sandover and Magarey Medals had the same prominence or standing as the Brownlow, Haydn Bunton’s record equates to SIX Brownlow Medals today. This is before we even discuss the magic number 1.04.

To address the winning vs losing argument, the old, old man said it was much easier to stick out as the best player in a weak side, whereas in a strong side your teammates took votes off you - as demonstrated by the wining side rarely getting a voting clean sweep in the 1930s. Think of it as a game of chess where at the start white only has the King and Queen in the back row against black with all pieces. That white Queen will be the most active piece on the board, in a losing side.
Lastly, I really think we are guilty of not knowing our history. Just because someone held or set records years ago, doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t hold their own today. Don Bradman‘a legacy persists for a number of reasons:batsmen are measured by their average, whereas footballers are not, subjectivity is in play;
His record was so much better that anyone else at the time, and since he gained legendary status (statisticians love Bradman because his average is such an outlier, it will take almost 10,000 years for someone that good to come along again);
There is plenty of video footage of Bradman;
Bradman lived a long life, so is far better remembered by more people, passing on his legacy.
Had Bradman’s career been 20 years earlier, I think (undeservedly) far less would be the acceptance that he was the greatest batsman of all time. Comments like “all the bowlers were crap back then” spring to mind. The lack of video footage, his early death and subjectivity all don’t help Haydn Bunton’s status as an all time great.
Let me give you all a different example of all time superstars with virtually no recognition. Living now in NSW and growing up with rugby, trying to find out who is the biggest place or drop kick in history is virtually impossible. Paul Thorburn for Wales is the longest successful (over the crossbar)place kick in a test match in 1986 at 65m (rounded up). Yet there are far bigger kicks than this. In rugby Union, Ernie Cooper kicked 85m in 1938 (over the crossbar), yet this doesn’t come close to Dave McNamara’s 96.5m (1913) or Albert Thurgood’s 98.5m record from 1899. Yes it isn’t apples with apples - specifically, they weren’t kicking over a crossbar (so deduct 7 metres minimum) and the ball was slightly heavier then, p=mv so even though it was harder to time, it went further when you did time it. This is why a ball filled with helium doesn’t travel further than one filled with air. These two (Thurgood and McNamara) are the two biggest place kicks in history, yet no one in Rugby has ever heard of them. Hardly surprising but really disappointing.
AFL players are the best kicks on the planet (where else can you play out your AFL career, retire, and then when you are well past your best, turn professional as a kicker in the NFL? This has been done by 30 or 40 VFL/AFL players, and we aren’t talking a fringe sport in a minor country either. 380m people, major winter sport, yet numerous Australians who are old and haven’t played NFL in any capacity, professionally or otherwise, have technique good enough to be better than US players in their prime who have practised all their lives… now recall that place kicks and drop kicks used to be common in the VFL (drop kicks to the mid 70s, Place kicks to the mid 50s). So no big surprise that the biggest place kicks and drop kicks of all time are by VFL players, just that no one knows their names or are aware of it. At least Ben Graham for the biggest punt of all time is clear. As for the other two, just because it’s not on YouTube, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

 

[BF Tiger]

What was Bunton’s votes/game average in the WAFL?

 

[jezza1435]

Have a look at the table of career Brownlow votes. See all those 21st century players at or near the top? What does that tell you?

That Dangerfield is in the top vote getters of the 21st Century?

 

[Seeds]

That Dangerfield is in the top vote getters of the 21st Century?

Of all time. Not just 21st century.

 

[Kwality]

Brownlow votes for new club after changing clubs:

1. Nathan Buckley - 164 (260 games)
2. Scott Thompson (Adelaide) - 152 (269)
3. Josh P. Kennedy - 146 (266)
4. Patrick Dangerfield - 133 (131)
5. Gary Ablett Jr. (Gold Coast) - 122 (110)
6. Chris Judd - 116 (145)

Some stories in that lot.

 

[Kwality]

What was Bunton’s votes/game average in the WAFL?

Haydn Bunton Sr.
1931–1937, 1942	Fitzroy	119 (207)
1938–1941	Subiaco	72 (190)
1945	Port Adelaide	17 (30)

Haydn Bunton Sr. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.
Won the Brownlow in his debut year.

 

[OnlyPowerForever]

My grandfather played with Haydn Bunten at Fitzroy, and said he was the best player of all time without a shadow of doubt (although he never saw anyone beyond 1985). At a time when the Sandover and Magarey Medals had the same prominence or standing as the Brownlow, Haydn Bunton’s record equates to SIX Brownlow Medals today. This is before we even discuss the magic number 1.04.

To address the winning vs losing argument, the old, old man said it was much easier to stick out as the best player in a weak side, whereas in a strong side your teammates took votes off you - as demonstrated by the wining side rarely getting a voting clean sweep in the 1930s. Think of it as a game of chess where at the start white only has the King and Queen in the back row against black with all pieces. That white Queen will be the most active piece on the board, in a losing side.
Lastly, I really think we are guilty of not knowing our history. Just because someone held or set records years ago, doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t hold their own today. Don Bradman‘a legacy persists for a number of reasons:batsmen are measured by their average, whereas footballers are not, subjectivity is in play;
His record was so much better that anyone else at the time, and since he gained legendary status (statisticians love Bradman because his average is such an outlier, it will take almost 10,000 years for someone that good to come along again);
There is plenty of video footage of Bradman;
Bradman lived a long life, so is far better remembered by more people, passing on his legacy.
Had Bradman’s career been 20 years earlier, I think (undeservedly) far less would be the acceptance that he was the greatest batsman of all time. Comments like “all the bowlers were crap back then” spring to mind. The lack of video footage, his early death and subjectivity all don’t help Haydn Bunton’s status as an all time great.

Cricket lends itself to comparisons between eras better because, like baseball, it's a one on one battle against bowlers where you can measure the quality/effectiveness of the opposition, and hence you can therefore compare players averages against the averages of their peers under the same quality opponent, and even against the averages of the players in the same game. Just a big statistical model. It's why you can do this (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/the-top-25-test-batting-performances-of-all-time-1154894)

The only thing I'd do with football is turn individuals records to records based on percentages of team totals
eg Tom Mitchells' game record of 54 possessions v Collingwood, was out of a team total of 401 possessions (13.46%)
2nd on the list is Greg Williams 53 possessions v St Kilda 1989, out of a team total of 301 possessions. (17.61%) - a far better performance statistically

This would elevate historical statistics a little in line with how the game was played at the time.

 

[OnlyPowerForever]

Haydn Bunton Sr.
1931–1937, 1942	Fitzroy	119 (207)
1938–1941	Subiaco	72 (190)
1945	Port Adelaide	17 (30)

Haydn Bunton Sr. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.
Won the Brownlow in his debut year.

And the year at Port Adelaide was his only year playing finals I think.

 

[Dipper]

Cricket lends itself to comparisons between eras better because, like baseball, it's a one on one battle against bowlers where you can measure the quality/effectiveness of the opposition, and hence you can therefore compare players averages against the averages of their peers under the same quality opponent, and even against the averages of the players in the same game. Just a big statistical model. It's why you can do this (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/the-top-25-test-batting-performances-of-all-time-1154894)

The only thing I'd do with football is turn individuals records to records based on percentages of team totals
eg Tom Mitchells' game record of 54 possessions v Collingwood, was out of a team total of 401 possessions (13.46%)
2nd on the list is Greg Williams 53 possessions v St Kilda 1989, out of a team total of 301 possessions. (17.61%) - a far better performance statistically

This would elevate historical statistics a little in line with how the game was played at the time.

The other thing with cricket is that the fastest bowlers don't get any faster; so it's not like codes of football where people are fitter and bigger therefore making it a different game. Same applies to baseball pitchers.

There's also nothing to make spinners turn the ball more, once you got to the 1920s the game is essentially the same for 100 years. Players having long careers helps too, as a comparison tool.

On SM-A326B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[PhatBoy]

The other thing with cricket is that the fastest bowlers don't get any faster; so it's not like codes of football where people are fitter and bigger therefore making it a different game. Same applies to baseball pitchers.

There's also nothing to make spinners turn the ball more, once you got to the 1920s the game is essentially the same for 100 years. Players having long careers helps too, as a comparison tool.

On SM-A326B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yes and no. Players have gotten better and skills like reverse swing etc are better exploited today but I firmly believe that if you transplanted Bradman into today’s cricket and have him 2 years to get used to it he would be just as good

 

[Kwality]

Yes and no. Players have gotten better and skills like reverse swing etc are better exploited today but I firmly believe that if you transplanted Bradman into today’s cricket and have him 2 years to get used to it he would be just as good

His skill was his eye as well as his technique.

 

[PhatBoy]

His skill was his eye as well as his technique.

Exactly.

 

[GastevsBeard]

Cricket lends itself to comparisons between eras better because, like baseball, it's a one on one battle against bowlers where you can measure the quality/effectiveness of the opposition, and hence you can therefore compare players averages against the averages of their peers under the same quality opponent, and even against the averages of the players in the same game. Just a big statistical model. It's why you can do this (https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/the-top-25-test-batting-performances-of-all-time-1154894)

The only thing I'd do with football is turn individuals records to records based on percentages of team totals
eg Tom Mitchells' game record of 54 possessions v Collingwood, was out of a team total of 401 possessions (13.46%)
2nd on the list is Greg Williams 53 possessions v St Kilda 1989, out of a team total of 301 possessions. (17.61%) - a far better performance statistically

This would elevate historical statistics a little in line with how the game was played at the time.

this is something I have always thought missing from discussion from AFL statistics, especially for key forwards. Lots has been made of key forwards in the modern era kicking less goals than previous eras. But as a proportion of all of their teams goals, has Buddy contributed more than Plugger ?

 

[OnlyPowerForever]

this is something I have always thought missing from discussion from AFL statistics, especially for key forwards. Lots has been made of key forwards in the modern era kicking less goals than previous eras. But as a proportion of all of their teams goals, has Buddy contributed more than Plugger ?

Hudson's 150 in 1971 came from a team total of 371 goals.
His 146 goals in 1970 came out of a team total of only 334.

On that basis, his 1970 season was a more dominant season.