No Opposition Supporters General AFL Discussion #11 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

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La Dispute

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That's fair enough. I still don't agree though.

Every modern premier has been at least better than average for tackle numbers. It's a key indicator, it's also a huge contributor to Richmond's success on the G; you tackle to bring players to ground, over and over, to outnumber your opposition who cannot chase you when they're on their arse. On the MCG, you win those contests you can win clear, and you cannot shut down space like you can on a narrower ground like Etihad; you cannot simply sit your Hookers or your Hurleys - or your ruckman - down the line or in the corridor, setting a zone behind the ball, there's too much ground to cover.

Essendon need to find a way to fulfill that need IMO, before I can take them more seriously than I took Richmond in 2013, who made finals off a soft draw and were always going to lose to us.
Or in Essendon’s case, they just keep one step ahead of the play and cut players out incrementally. You don’t need to constantly hamper the opposition if you’re making the running yourself. Similar I guess stylistically, to the modifications Melbourne have made to theirs to make them a dangerous team on the turnover. Essendon don’t yet have the tackling power in the midfield, but Shiel coming in and more games into Langford will part-way address this.

Kind of deterministic to suggest we were always going to beat Richmond in 2013, but it made sense. We had had a few years in the finals, and Richmond were notoriously flaky despite some obvious development in their list - in particular their midfielders. Their gameplan also mirrored Geelong’s, and they completely blew a few teams away that year playing on quickly and constantly feeding their prime movers. Funnily enough you can still see many of those aspects in the current iteration.

Essendon, personell-wise at least, are streets ahead of that 2013 Richmond team.
 

Gethelred

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Or in Essendon’s case, they just keep one step ahead of the play and cut players out incrementally. You don’t need to constantly hamper the opposition if you’re making the running yourself. Similar I guess stylistically, to the modifications Melbourne have made to theirs to make them a dangerous team on the turnover. Essendon don’t yet have the tackling power in the midfield, but Shiel coming in and more games into Langford will part-way address this.
... which will work for home and away, but will not work in finals.

You're making me sound like a conservative, which is pretty much the last thing I would've wanted to sound like, but part of the reasons you observe the history of the game is to seek trends, patterns which bring about ultimate victory. There have been plenty of things that have been tried - there are almost no new tricks at AFL level anymore - but most of what has worked is fairly well established; a) kick wide out of full back, b) bring the ball into the corridor before you get into forward 50, c) bring at least one KPF to the match (if possible, try and be taller across the board; if not, see part...), d) tackle more than your opponent does when you play at the G. You can do almost anything - intercept defenders (Scarlett, Taylor, Enright), stoppage after stoppage after stoppage to grind your opponent into the deck (Sydney 05, Collingwood 2010), you can slingshot the ball over an opposition zone to a runner who beats everyone back to the goals (Sydney 2012) as long as you keep to the basics.

There is a reason Ross Lyon failed in each of his zonal itinerations - his zone and space shutdown were the keys to his gameplan at Fremantle and St Kilda, rather than overwhelming around the ball pressure - where Clarkson succeeded in 08 with his cluster against a thoroughly better side (although unlimited rushed behinds certainly helped) and why Richmond and the Doggies beat their opposition despite not being wildly superior with ball in hand. It forces ball sides to cough the thing up if they cannot clear the stoppage or congestion, and it brings about turnovers and easy goals, the kind of thing that makes a grand final easier to win. You cannot patchwork this kind of thing onto a gameplan, it needs to be present, ingrained deep into a playing group, and unless they've spent all summer playing union I cannot see them showing the kind of aptitude needed.

I'm going in circles now, so I'll probably stop here. It'll be interesting to see if we are indeed out of the 'perfect football' era, because that will open the door for anyone seeking to be another generational team should they play their cards right.
 

La Dispute

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... which will work for home and away, but will not work in finals.

You're making me sound like a conservative, which is pretty much the last thing I would've wanted to sound like, but part of the reasons you observe the history of the game is to seek trends, patterns which bring about ultimate victory. There have been plenty of things that have been tried - there are almost no new tricks at AFL level anymore - but most of what has worked is fairly well established; a) kick wide out of full back, b) bring the ball into the corridor before you get into forward 50, c) bring at least one KPF to the match (if possible, try and be taller across the board; if not, see part...), d) tackle more than your opponent does when you play at the G. You can do almost anything - intercept defenders (Scarlett, Taylor, Enright), stoppage after stoppage after stoppage to grind your opponent into the deck (Sydney 05, Collingwood 2010), you can slingshot the ball over an opposition zone to a runner who beats everyone back to the goals (Sydney 2012) as long as you keep to the basics.

There is a reason Ross Lyon failed in each of his zonal itinerations - his zone and space shutdown were the keys to his gameplan at Fremantle and St Kilda, rather than overwhelming around the ball pressure - where Clarkson succeeded in 08 with his cluster against a thoroughly better side (although unlimited rushed behinds certainly helped) and why Richmond and the Doggies beat their opposition despite not being wildly superior with ball in hand. It forces ball sides to cough the thing up if they cannot clear the stoppage or congestion, and it brings about turnovers and easy goals, the kind of thing that makes a grand final easier to win. You cannot patchwork this kind of thing onto a gameplan, it needs to be present, ingrained deep into a playing group, and unless they've spent all summer playing union I cannot see them showing the kind of aptitude needed.

I'm going in circles now, so I'll probably stop here. It'll be interesting to see if we are indeed out of the 'perfect football' era, because that will open the door for anyone seeking to be another generational team should they play their cards right.
Sure, there’s an appetite for the contest, but this is something that is trained for, and can be corrected. Some players are more competitive than others, but ultimately you want every player at their optimum defensively, whatever their quota is.

Now I can’t see Essendon as being fundamentally incapable of increasing their tackling pressure and relishing the contest in the way Richmond have in recent years. You’ve correctly highlighted an inverse focus on attack, but if we’re going to continue the Richmond comparison, this was their main strength before they locked down their defensive action. Whether this is now seen as a priority for Essendon is another conversation - one we’d be projecting - but players acclimatise to certain actions if they are repeated over a long period of time.

IF they bring a far better defensive game style next year, coupled with their already potent attacking dimension then they become a fairly complete team. I’m also not sure if Worsfold is the coach to bring this about, but I can’t see the utility in putting any limitations on aspects that can, over time, and with serious attention, be developed.
 

jezzajay

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I’m enjoying this read the last few pages. Great insights..
I personally think essendon can improve. I saw enough last year and to include Shiel and Daniher would certainly help...I’m not sure if there’s others that are best 22 to be included.
Carry on...
 

AndyWalkersGirl

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Chatting with my friend yesterday, whose son is on an AFL development path. I jokingly said I hoped Carlton picked him up and she replied that the Blues are on his wish list but that one Melb based team wasn’t. I suggested Essendon but she said that all the boys in his groups were amazed by what Essendon had to offer. They take these kids on tours of the facilities around Melb clubs and she was saying they all though Essendon facilities were unlike any other, her words “it was like sporting heaven.”

Made me think of players recently choosing Bombers over Blues.
 

Coona Blues

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Chatting with my friend yesterday, whose son is on an AFL development path. I jokingly said I hoped Carlton picked him up and she replied that the Blues are on his wish list but that one Melb based team wasn’t. I suggested Essendon but she said that all the boys in his groups were amazed by what Essendon had to offer. They take these kids on tours of the facilities around Melb clubs and she was saying they all though Essendon facilities were unlike any other, her words “it was like sporting heaven.”

Made me think of players recently choosing Bombers over Blues.
Once the pretzels are cleaned up.

I actually despise how well Essendon are doing.
La Dispute has fought the good fight attempting to enlighten those who cannot accept it. Despite recent additions, they are still a bit light on midfield quality and depth.

They have some solid B graders developing, but little real star quality in their "juniors". Their defence is quickly becoming their strength after being a
bit fragile. The stumbling block to a dynasty lies in the ages of Hurley and Hooker with only role players and some very talented young third talls coming through.

Their attack is varied and potent, though relying on one of McKernan, Brown or Stewart complementing the fragile Daniher and often flaky Stringer is a tall order.

Not far away from being a genuine power, but as alluded to by some, can seem a bit mentally vulnerable (so were the Tigers a couple of years back).
 

Carl Tone

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Think you are being very generous on the Dopers.

Daniher is overrated an Shiel will help but they lack class everywhere. Have a few good players but no real A graders beside Heppell and Shiel

Underperformed this year yeah i'll give you that, but massively underperformed, no. They don't play like a team. They are soft when the heat is put on them. Showcased by us beating them in more physical contests over the last few years.

JMO but don't think they are very good. They are Old and overrated. and given what they have been through with their cheating i think it has breed a mental weakness in them.
Plus they lost Colyer who is a very good player, so replacing him with Shiel improves the team marginally. Had they kept Colyer they would have gained much more.
 

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La Dispute

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Once the pretzels are cleaned up.

I actually despise how well Essendon are doing.
La Dispute has fought the good fight attempting to enlighten those who cannot accept it. Despite recent additions, they are still a bit light on midfield quality and depth.

They have some solid B graders developing, but little real star quality in their "juniors". Their defence is quickly becoming their strength after being a
bit fragile. The stumbling block to a dynasty lies in the ages of Hurley and Hooker with only role players and some very talented young third talls coming through.

Their attack is varied and potent, though relying on one of McKernan, Brown or Stewart complementing the fragile Daniher and often flaky Stringer is a tall order.

Not far away from being a genuine power, but as alluded to by some, can seem a bit mentally vulnerable (so were the Tigers a couple of years back).
I see their youth as being reasonable. Francis is the big wildcard, and his form towards the back end of the season suggests he could be an A-grade intercept and rebound defender - decent overhead with good foot skills.

Parish I’ve written on quite a bit. I see him as a solid B-grade contributor with a lower ceiling but his decision-making is solid and he’ll benefit from some extra size. I made the comparison with Marc Murphy in his draft year, but with less athleticism. Thought he was slightly prococious in his draft year (and year prior) which saw him slip slightly.

McGrath will be a good player, and I think he’s moved to actually being underrated on Bigfooty after an underwhelming second season (strangely enough, it’s a similar situation with Burton). Once he transitions into a full-time mid we will start seeing more of his junior attributes come to the fore. I think he’d be a gun small forward if Essendon we’re going to go down that path too.

Langford I rate, and surely he’ll get a full season next year and Ridley I was keen on in his draft year but I haven’t seen much of him at AFL level.

Their youth isn’t as good as ours but we’ve invested heavily in the draft and theoretically should like far advanced in this area.

I suspect we will see a very strong team in a couple of years, but it’ll be a matter of closing the gap between their best and worst - personnel-wise, and performance-wise.

I’m keen to see how Shiel does for them, and if his inclusion elevates them in the way they’re aiming for. They got him for an absolute song provided they make they 8 this year.
 

bluebrew

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Just checking is this still the
General AFL Discussion #11 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

After this forums upgrade I am not sure some people seem to be obsessed with *Assenbumbers...
 

Jimmae

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Chatting with my friend yesterday, whose son is on an AFL development path. I jokingly said I hoped Carlton picked him up and she replied that the Blues are on his wish list but that one Melb based team wasn’t. I suggested Essendon but she said that all the boys in his groups were amazed by what Essendon had to offer. They take these kids on tours of the facilities around Melb clubs and she was saying they all though Essendon facilities were unlike any other, her words “it was like sporting heaven.”

Made me think of players recently choosing Bombers over Blues.
They basically had to after what happened, and in that respect they learnt a hard lesson about player welfare. The players still copped it worse though.
 

katmanblue

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I’m enjoying this read the last few pages. Great insights..
I personally think essendon can improve. I saw enough last year and to include Shiel and Daniher would certainly help...I’m not sure if there’s others that are best 22 to be included.
Carry on...
I know I'm wayward, but are we friends?

If you say we are, I'll take it. I don't have many.

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katmanblue

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Chatting with my friend yesterday, whose son is on an AFL development path. I jokingly said I hoped Carlton picked him up and she replied that the Blues are on his wish list but that one Melb based team wasn’t. I suggested Essendon but she said that all the boys in his groups were amazed by what Essendon had to offer. They take these kids on tours of the facilities around Melb clubs and she was saying they all though Essendon facilities were unlike any other, her words “it was like sporting heaven.”

Made me think of players recently choosing Bombers over Blues.
Hmph!

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