List Mgmt. Hawks Major List Problems

[Pessimistic]

If Cyril retires then apparently with running one light and vickery retirement three draft spots already freed up.

The seemingly anticipated cull need not be as deep to get a fair influx in the draft.

(Unless posters things you can draft in 7th 8th round etc and not simply replace list cloggers with kids who might not even attain that status)

Vickery the only real bust recently

 

[becalm]

As those incumbent with list management of the club have failed and therefore they should be sacked at the end of the year'.
Some on here should apply for the vacancies.
Personally I think the list management have done a damn good job.
Sure there have been some mistakes, but it is impossible not to.
Very easy to take pot shots after the event.

 

[MasterSamurai]

As those incumbent with list management of the club have failed and therefore they should be sacked at the end of the year'.
Some on here should apply for the vacancies.
Personally I think the list management have done a damn good job.
Sure there have been some mistakes, but it is impossible not to.
Very easy to take pot shots after the event.

There is nothing wrong with this thread.

 

[tige19]

I'd add Miles and Mirra to the outs.

Miles isn't AFL standard although very solid at VFL level.

Mirra seems back-up for Stratts and I would rather draft another young rookie and roll the dice than extend another year.

Agree, both Miles and Mirra and nowhere near it.

 

[tige19]

As those incumbent with list management of the club have failed and therefore they should be sacked at the end of the year'.
Some on here should apply for the vacancies.
Personally I think the list management have done a damn good job.
Sure there have been some mistakes, but it is impossible not to.
Very easy to take pot shots after the event.

You can only judge on the facts presented! id suggest you don't contribute to the thread as you won't like the a lot of the posting, furthermore I don't actually think posters are having a dig at anyone in particular but it's hard to argue against the fact that our drafting has been quite poor.

I feel that GW is a master tactician in the off-season in relation to acquiring free agents and negotiating with clubs and players to bring in the talent we want, on the flip side I think he has been quite poor with drafting new talent.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Think most agree we need a major overhaul of our list.

Sadly the reality will be only 5-7 players moved on when we could cull upto 10-12.

Players most likely to exit - Whitecross ; Shoenmakers ; O'Rourke ; Brand ; Miles ; Heatherley

Lucky to survive - Duryea, Langford, Henderson

Question marks on future - Burgoyne (age) ; Rioli (retire ?)

I don't think we will die wondering. I expect a pretty savage change to our list.

 

[savagelunchbox]

(Unless posters things you can draft in 7th 8th round etc and not simply replace list cloggers with kids who might not even attain that status)

The benefit to drafting kids in the 7th and 8th as opposed to retaining list cloggers is that the kids cost less, allowing more money for to bring in talent.

 

[bumsonseats]

Clarko has a lot of faith in his playing group, and backs the team in to finish top 4.
For a bit there, we were a sneaky chance, but the current ladder position is a truer reflection of where we are at.
Lose to the resurgent Bulldogs this week and finals look increasingly less likely, so priority given to the future.

I can see as many as 6 or 7coming off the main list this year, with Cuz and Glass rookie upgrades, and possibly a FA in. That gives us 3 or 4 live picks in the draft.

I think our problems are more in the midfield at the moment, so I would be looking to move on guys like Lovell and JOR that just aren’t going to take us forward. We need to be investing in Worpel, Jones and Cuz IMO.
WhiteX - a great clubman who’s time has come.
Pittonet - doesn’t appear to be AFL standard, but transfer to rookie list as insurance
Schoey: loyal servant, but time to move on. Possibly rookie list for insurance.
Heatherley: love the big Kiwi, but doesn’t fit our gameplan - not offensive enough.

At the moment, I think TOB and Langers stay - make or break for both next year.
Duryea - stays. Can’t get rid of all of our experienced depth. Puts his body on the line every week.
Miles: wouldn’t be surprised if he is cut, but by all accounts his form at BH playing as a small defender has been pretty good. Has good leg speed and a very good kick from what I understand. Might be able to release Hardwick to play up forward or more through the midfield.
Henderson: stays. We don’t have enough outside runnersi would like to see Jackson Ross take over from him sometime next season.
Brand: stays. We don’t have any KPD depth at all.

I would be surprised if we lose more than one of: Burgers, Cyril, Birch or Rough.

I would be open to (serious) offers for I.Omith and Poppy.
I know this won’t be popular, and I am a big fan of Smith.........but if we are having a clean out, then Smith is pushing 30 and might be about all we have that has any currency. If an offer comes that involves a decent 1st round pick then we should look at it.

 

[Wandering Hawk]

The question is not determined by listing all whom we would like to delist, but how many picks and trades we have to allow us to delist someone.

Our list is one shy, and with both Vickery going and the need to upgrade 3 rookies there aren't all that many picks to fill departures. We'd need two free agents to even delist our weakest six, without any retirements.

Weakest six:
Willsmore
Whitecross
JOR
Schoenmakers
Miles
Heatherley

Talk of delisting any of Brand, Duryea, Langford, Mirra, Henderson, TOB, Lovell etc is far from reality unless we see 3+ free agents or trades. We'll delist those never playing/aged before we'll delist those who have currently made the team at times.

likely retirements:

2018
Rioli
Vickery
2-4 others

2019
Roughead
Birchall
Burgoyne
2-3 others

2020
Puopolo
Henderson
Frawley
2-3 others

2021
Smith
Stratton
3-4 others

 

[A Cut Above]

Before y'all go full doom & gloom mode, don't forget every other team in the comp has major list issues too - even Richmond, though theirs are being masked by two years of a dream injury run to their most important players.

You don't need a great team to win a Premiership anymore, you just need to have a great mindset and be slightly less average than everyone else.

 

[Xtreme]

I know this won’t be popular, and I am a big fan of Smith.........but if we are having a clean out, then Smith is pushing 30 and might be about all we have that has any currency. If an offer comes that involves a decent 1st round pick then we should look at it.

May as well trade Gunston, Bruest and Mitchell..... while we are at it!

 

[hfc70]

.....don't forget every other team in the comp has major list issues too

With due respect...couldn't give a flying farkuck about any other teams

My only concern is the Hawks

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

May as well trade Gunston, Bruest and Mitchell..... while we are at it!

I think BoS qualified his comments and although this isn't an over the top rebuke, I stil wait for the stoning which would be so big footy.
Peace out.

 

[Pessimistic]

The benefit to drafting kids in the 7th and 8th as opposed to retaining list cloggers is that the kids cost less, allowing more money for to bring in talent.

Carlton FC

 

[A Cut Above]

With due respect...couldn't give a flying farkuck about any other teams

My only concern is the Hawks

Our team doesn't exist in a vacuum. The strength of our competitors affects our chances of winning a Premiership as much as the contents of our playing list.

If Rance, Cotchin & Martin all do ACLs next week then every team in finals contention suddenly has their odds improved. If Franklin breaks his leg, same thing. If Richmond lands Lynch, the reverse may apply. The relative strength of the league's top contenders affects Graham Wright's list management decisions, such as to trade for picks & invest in youth or top-up in the hopes of pinching a flag next year.

 

[Wandering Hawk]

Our team doesn't exist in a vacuum. The strength of our competitors affects our chances of winning a Premiership as much as the contents of our playing list.

If Rance, Cotchin & Martin all do ACLs next week then every team in finals contention suddenly has their odds improved. If Franklin breaks his leg, same thing. If Richmond lands Lynch, the reverse may apply. The relative strength of the league's top contenders affects Graham Wright's list management decisions, such as to trade for picks & invest in youth or top-up in the hopes of pinching a flag next year.

Well said.

 

[BaliHawk]

Plenty to agree with Davo-27 and a great discussion. List analysis and changes to build one of Premiership quality require the right people and a culture where standing still isn’t an option. Expect the limitations observed here are not blinded by Wrighty, Clarko etc. Plus, we are a club players from other teams want to join. My gut tells me this off season will be intriguing from drafting early pics and free agency, our list will surely look markedly different come November. Playing finals is still realistic and for us fans, the players, the club it’s what we all strive for and gives the players and coaches a boost of confidence. As they say, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs so there may be a few tough calls - we are fortunate the people making those calls generally get it right.


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[lickmerocks]

Kane Cornes has just ripped our list apart on SEN suggesting we are in for a world of pain over the next few years.

1.Outgoing ageing stars-Rough Burger Birch Rioli
2.Omeara not playing to the superstar level we hoped and paid for.
3 no young stars coming through the ranks.
4. Average middle tier players in Doc Langford etc that are not taking the club forward.

 

[tige19]

Kane Cornes has just ripped our list apart on SEN suggesting we are in for a world of pain over the next few years.

1.Outgoing ageing stars-Rough Burger Birch Rioli
2.Omeara not playing to the superstar level we hoped and paid for.
3 no young stars coming through the ranks.
4. Average middle tier players in Doc Langford etc that are not taking the club forward.

Theres some truth a falsehood from what he said, for one Kane is the new age sports shock jock so needs to be outrageous and on the other hand he can be articulate and educated in his views.

I do believe we have genuine high level kids, but they are to few than we need.

Burton, Hardwick, Sicily are our 3 elite kids, theres not much else in the cupboard and I include players like Worpel, Cousins and Howe who to me are more foot soldiers than high contributors.

 

[Mitchell54]

Players with potential of being traded or delisted

Section 1
Roughy - keep if he wants to play on
Rioli - Keep if he wants to play
Burgoyne - keep if he wants to play on
Birchall - trade for a third rounder or keep

Section 2
Duryea - keep
Langford: Trade
Henderson - Delist or trade
Whitecross - Delist or trade
Schoenmakers - Delist or trade

Section 3
Pittonet - Delist or trade
Brand - Keep

Section 4
Willsmore - Delist
Miles - Delist
O’Rourke - Delist or trade
Lovell - Delist or trade
Heatherley - Delist or trade

Out of these 17 players:

Section 1(4 players):

Keep: 3
Trade 1
DT*: 0
Delist: 0

Section 2 (5 players):
Keep: 1
Trade: 1
DT*: 3
Delist: 0

Section 3 (2):
Keep: 1
Trade: 0
DT*: 1
Delist: 0

Section 4 (5):
Keep: 0
Trade: 0
DT*: 3
Delist: 2

* Delist or Trade



Best 22 without players in above lists:
B: Hardwick Frawley Stratton
HB: Burton Sicily Morrison
C: Impey Mitchell Smith
HF: Bruest Ceglar Howe
F: Puopolo Gunston O’Brien
Foll: McEvoy Shiels O’Meara
Int: New recruits in competition with current players (Worpel, Glass, Mirra, Hanrahan, Cousins, Brand)

I do think changes need to be made and I think the list managers at Hawthorn know this. There will be change depending on how we go this season but I don’t think there is reason to be overly concerned. I think with some smart moves we could be on track very soon

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

If Cyril retires then apparently with running one light and vickery retirement three draft spots already freed up.

The seemingly anticipated cull need not be as deep to get a fair influx in the draft.

(Unless posters things you can draft in 7th 8th round etc and not simply replace list cloggers with kids who might not even attain that status)

Vickery the only real bust recently

JOR not considered a bust? Pick 19 for 9 games in nearly 4 years...

 

[MrFujiMoto]

Why would you hope you're wrong? That 2009 list clean out and the subsequent drafting and trading that followed was the catalyst for the bulk of the threepeat era list.

I know what you are saying but I think Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Roughead, Franklin, Rioli & Birchall were probably just as important. Most of those guys are players you can build a team around. It is most of the spine taken care of and it is why when we added a good ruck and FB, we started competing and winning flags. That core group made adding the players we did work so well. Players like Bruest, Suckers, Hill, Gibbo, Stratts, Frawley, Poppy, Langford, Whitecross etc are the cherry on top and depth we needed to compliment that core group we had.

Our spine is close to shot currently. Need a FB, FF, CHF and more midfield depth. Players we can build around in our spine are currently Mitchell, Gunston, O'Meara & Sicily. Smith has definitely stepped up but he is a feeder player, not a spine type player. Ceglar will be a good asset as long as he stays on the park and Burton is up and coming and will be important. Hardly the depth or quality of the 11-15 years. That was simply a once in 2 generations type list I think.

If we could get a good CHB/FB and a good KPF, we could tweak what we have and maybe be a chance to snatch a flag. Add to that wishlist a quality inside/outside mid (What we wanted O'Rourke to be) and we are a good chance to mix it up for top 4. We need the class and grunt to make what we have look good again.

 

[bradburygold]

Theres some truth a falsehood from what he said, for one Kane is the new age sports shock jock so needs to be outrageous and on the other hand he can be articulate and educated in his views.

I do believe we have genuine high level kids, but they are to few than we need.

Burton, Hardwick, Sicily are our 3 elite kids, theres not much else in the cupboard and I include players like Worpel, Cousins and Howe who to me are more foot soldiers than high contributors.

It doesn't really matter how old elite talent is as long as they arent in their last year or two (which is burgoyne only - rioli/birchall/roughead either not playing or not playing at elite level).

How many elite kids do richmond and geelong have? Port? Jack Billings and Tom Boyd were elite kids but didnt come on. Happy for the club to keep trading for proven talent.

 

[tige19]

It doesn't really matter how old elite talent is as long as they arent in their last year or two (which is burgoyne only - rioli/birchall/roughead either not playing or not playing at elite level).

How many elite kids do richmond and geelong have? Port? Jack Billings and Tom Boyd were elite kids but didnt come on. Happy for the club to keep trading for proven talent.

Ruff is not performing at an elite level because he is the wrong side of 30 and just about finished, much of the same with Birch who can't be considered even part of this side until he is back which for all we know won't even be this year (I don't believe any of the crap from BUPA and AR).

Rough
Birch
Silk
Rioli
Pop

Those 5 are old, over 30 or close to retiring.

Stratton
Frawley
Smith
McEvoy
Henderson

Those 5 are senior players who are 28/29+ and would be within 2-3 years of retiring or being moved on.

Mirra
Whitecross
Schoenmakers
Duryea
Ceglar

Those 5 are 27+ and are either not up to AFL level and/or are in and out of the side, these guys aren't taking us anywhere but the bottom 8 (maybe not Cegs)

Willsmore
Pittonet
O'Rourke
Miles
Lovell
Langford
Heatherley
Brand
O'Brien

Those 9 players are almost non factors at AFL level, these players do not contribute, have not contributed in any way, shape or form and should be moved on.

It's hard to mask the facts, our list is not in great shape but we can absolutely address this over the next 2-3 years but there needs to be significant player turnover. I don't think the club would feel the current crop is capable of pushing for a flag, I would be gob smacked if they also didn't feel that below our top 10-14 players we have major issues.

1. Age demographics are poor
2. Bad contracts have been handed out (Langers, Vickery, Frawley)
3. Young talent as a collective is poor (outside the 3 I mentioned earlier)
4. No access to elite talent through the draft
5. Earlyish draft picks we have had, we have mostly stuffed up (look at my post outlining our performance if top 30 picks since 2008)

So when you combine our success, with lack of top 20 picks, poor drafting, poor contracting of some players, and our oldest players still being our best, it leaves us in this predicament.

Like I said, it can be turned around, we can absolutely be successful with a running re-build but we must get younger, we must move on a lot of dead wood and swap our poor 26-30 year olds with un-proven 18-23 year olds to expose them to señior footy and see if they can contribute.

 

[Mercy Seat]

High draft picks and tradable young talent is like currency.

If you look at it in dollar terms we’ve had the LOWEST amount to play with of any team in the competition and yet we’ve got 4 flags banked and are sitting mid table with a realistic shot at finals. The idea that what Graham Wright and Clarko have done is a “disgrace” per the OP is frankly disgusting.

That all being said, I agree with the principle that our list is not nearly good enough and we are probably 3-4 elite players away from having a realistic chance at a flag. I think the lower end of the list looks after itself when you have the higher end talent pushing the likes of Doc, O’Brien, Howe and Langford to the last 1-2 spots each week and depth rather than guaranteed games. I’m not too worried about those guys. Much more focussed on how we bring elite talent in and whether that needs to be a complete youthful rebuild, or whether they roll the dice again on trades and FA.