Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[rye]

I'm curious about the Rioli role in the public letter recently released by the claimants. Is he a part of the group because of his high profile name as no doubt the Rioli name carries significant weight in "validating" allegations. The only reference I have ever read regarding his/his wife's concerns relate to boofhead comments by Kennett towards Rioli's wife and "holes in her jeans". Boofhead Kennett apparently apologised for those comments and whilst I can understand the possibility of some offense being taken, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that they were racist comments - without knowing what else has been said or the context.

from my understanding the rioli's felt like comments such as those made by kennet re: the jeans were a part of a wider pattern of behaviour where comments such as those were directed at them which would not have been directed at non-aboriginal players or their partners. that would amount to racist conduct imo

i think the far more interesting thing now is the leak which appears to show that the rioli's and another complainant were indeed seeking monetary compensation despite recently claiming they had never done so. if the claims made by the alleged victims are true, they should definitely be entitled to financial compensation. but being dishonest about wanting said compensation will surely not paint their case in a good light going forward if the leaked documents are authentic in showing significant claims for money were made

 

[Elixuh]

Former Hawthorn official Jason Burt denies allegations in Indigenous families' open letter - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

 

[Thomasno]

from my understanding the rioli's felt like comments such as those made by kennet re: the jeans were a part of a wider pattern of behaviour where comments such as those were directed at them which would not have been directed at non-aboriginal players or their partners. that would amount to racist conduct imo

i think the far more interesting thing now is the leak which appears to show that the rioli's and another complainant were indeed seeking monetary compensation despite recently claiming they had never done so. if the claims made by the alleged victims are true, they should definitely be entitled to financial compensation. but being dishonest about wanting said compensation will surely not paint their case in a good light going forward if the leaked documents are authentic in showing significant claims for money were made

Also worth mentioning that Phil Egan, cousin of Leon Egan (one of the subjects in the report and names on the letter), was the writer of the original hawthorn report.

Phil Egan has also been arrested by the Financial Crime Squad a few months ago, and is being accused of fraud in which he used his position in an aboriginal organisation to enrich himself.

You can draw your own conclusions from there, but it’s getting shadier and shadier.

 

[Brett C]

Because saying that our country could be improved in some ways is the same as saying it's s**t, obviously

You read the original post right? Filled with suggestions to improve our country was it? In no way just general spouting of nonsense either

 

[Maboo]

Such a s**t country, makes me wonder why so many people want to migrate here.

That answer sort of confirms my opinion

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

You read the original post right? Filled with suggestions to improve our country was it? In no way just general spouting of nonsense either

I don't think it's necessary to provide solutions in posts like those. It's almost always the case that identifying issues is the easy part, whereas fixing them is much more complex. It would be absurd to suggest that such issues shouldn't be pointed out though. Silence equals complicity.

If it's the sort of issue that can be resolved by a BigFooty poster, well no disrespect to the community but it's most likely not that much of an issue.

 

[buttermuffs]

Such a s**t country, makes me wonder why so many people want to migrate here.

I think a lot of middle easterners migrated here because we bombed their homes. Though tbf we just keep them in an island away from us when they tried to escape a war zone.


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[martinson]

You seem to have a lot of opinions on popular social and international issues.

I'll forego the debate.

Reading what's come out from either side of the Hawthorn racism drama over the past week it seems the language has stepped up a couple of tones and it's hard to see this ending with a handshake.

 

[buttermuffs]

Also worth mentioning that Phil Egan, cousin of Leon Egan (one of the subjects in the report and names on the letter), was the writer of the original hawthorn report.

Phil Egan has also been arrested by the Financial Crime Squad a few months ago, and is being accused of fraud in which he used his position in an aboriginal organisation to enrich himself.

You can draw your own conclusions from there, but it’s getting shadier and shadier.

What are referring to as getting shadier? The allegations or the original Hawthorn report?

I could understand if your talking about the Hawthorn report, as there’s obviously a conflict of interest but I can’t say the same for the allegations.

The report was what lead to the AFL investigation and everything from then on but it’s not being used as evidence. It won’t be used as evidence in court or the HRC either, since they would do their own things to learn about the situation themselves. I wouldn’t be surprised if Phil has poor intentions, but I feel like that doesn’t automatically extend to Leon and the accusers.

Also Leon wasn’t one of the subjects, he reached out and made his own statement when he heard of the report as he was the indigenous liaison officer during some of the time period at the club. The fact he is a disgruntled employee could work both ways but I feel like there’s one side that seems a lot more based in reality. Leon could either be a conspirator with Phil for some financial or personal motivation, or he could have been aware of the mistreatment of indigenous players and wanted to help them speak up.

Also I feel if the whole report was a conspiracy for a financial payout then they probably could have made up some stories that were less likely to receive some pushback:

1. They could have easily just involved Burt, who is not as well loved and well known and it not someone who a lot of the public would jump to defend. Why bring in Clarkson and Fagan when it would obviously lead to so many clashing against the accusers in defence of them?

2. It would have been better not to go public straight away either, and instead use the AFL’s desperation to keep a good image as leverage to pressure them to pay everyone out to keep it quiet.


I feel like if you look at the situation a bit broader than two people being cousins and one being a fraud, then viewing the whole situation as some sort of shady conspiracy becomes less tangible. While I can believe Phil is a dodgy character it just doesn’t seem reasonable to use that to judge the intentions of the accusers.

Obviously the money thing isn’t great but we don’t know how much money they ever requested and from who. I feel there’s a great difference to asking for compensation for damages in regard to costs for medical issues or paying out the contract verses asking for a boatload of money on the grounds that they were treated poorly.

 

[Thomasno]

What are referring to as getting shadier? The allegations or the original Hawthorn report?

I could understand if your talking about the Hawthorn report, as there’s obviously a conflict of interest but I can’t say the same for the allegations.

The report was what lead to the AFL investigation and everything from then on but it’s not being used as evidence. It won’t be used as evidence in court or the HRC either, since they would do their own things to learn about the situation themselves. I wouldn’t be surprised if Phil has poor intentions, but I feel like that doesn’t automatically extend to Leon and the accusers.

Also Leon wasn’t one of the subjects, he reached out and made his own statement when he heard of the report as he was the indigenous liaison officer during some of the time period at the club. The fact he is a disgruntled employee could work both ways but I feel like there’s one side that seems a lot more based in reality. Leon could either be a conspirator with Phil for some financial or personal motivation, or he could have been aware of the mistreatment of indigenous players and wanted to help them speak up.

Also I feel if the whole report was a conspiracy for a financial payout then they probably could have made up some stories that were less likely to receive some pushback:

1. They could have easily just involved Burt, who is not as well loved and well known and it not someone who a lot of the public would jump to defend. Why bring in Clarkson and Fagan when it would obviously lead to so many clashing against the accusers in defence of them?

2. It would have been better not to go public straight away either, and instead use the AFL’s desperation to keep a good image as leverage to pressure them to pay everyone out to keep it quiet.


I feel like if you look at the situation a bit broader than two people being cousins and one being a fraud, then viewing the whole situation as some sort of shady conspiracy becomes less tangible. While I can believe Phil is a dodgy character it just doesn’t seem reasonable to use that to judge the intentions of the accusers.

Obviously the money thing isn’t great but we don’t know how much money they ever requested and from who. I feel there’s a great difference to asking for compensation for damages in regard to costs for medical issues or paying out the contract verses asking for a boatload of money on the grounds that they were treated poorly.

Look you’re probably right, it’s just all a bit odd. In terms of things we actually KNOW, it just keeps stacking up in the other column. Egan being arrested for fraud, the complainants claiming they never asked for money when that’s now demonstrably false… and then you’ve got front and centre now as example of this “racism” is Kennett making a comment to Cyril that his wife can now afford to fix her jeans, which sounds far less anything racist and way more just a boomer joke about wearing pre-ripped jeans.

Then you’ve got past players including indigenous players saying they didn’t witness anything of the sort, Charlie both literally and figuratively standing with Fages…

Idk man. Something doesn’t add up.

 

[martinson]

Look you’re probably right, it’s just all a bit odd. In terms of things we actually KNOW, it just keeps stacking up in the other column. Egan being arrested for fraud, the complainants claiming they never asked for money when that’s now demonstrably false… and then you’ve got front and centre now as example of this “racism” is Kennett making a comment to Cyril that his wife can now afford to fix her jeans, which sounds far less anything racist and way more just a boomer joke about wearing pre-ripped jeans.

Then you’ve got past players including indigenous players saying they didn’t witness anything of the sort, Charlie both literally and figuratively standing with Fages…

Idk man. Something doesn’t add up.

I think they're better off to let go of the ripped jeans thing. That's the sort of thing Jeff would say. To anybody.

If they have anything more overt then go with that. Or maybe it's just the multiplication of lots of little things that builds resentment and then one of them sets you off.

Idk either but they either substantiate what was in Egan's report , which was the basis of the news headlines and which the accused all deny, or we hear more of what else they did wrong. Is that balanced at all by the good things they might have done ? The memory on both sides is probably a little foggy and selective after all this time.

 

[Brett C]

I think a lot of middle easterners migrated here because we bombed their homes. Though tbf we just keep them in an island away from us when they tried to escape a war zone.


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Let’s just ignore the 100,000’s of Indians, chinese and many other asian countries (not forgetting the usual suspects from NZ, UK) that have come to Australia for a better life

 

[buttermuffs]

Look you’re probably right, it’s just all a bit odd. In terms of things we actually KNOW, it just keeps stacking up in the other column. Egan being arrested for fraud, the complainants claiming they never asked for money when that’s now demonstrably false… and then you’ve got front and centre now as example of this “racism” is Kennett making a comment to Cyril that his wife can now afford to fix her jeans, which sounds far less anything racist and way more just a boomer joke about wearing pre-ripped jeans.

Then you’ve got past players including indigenous players saying they didn’t witness anything of the sort, Charlie both literally and figuratively standing with Fages…

Idk man. Something doesn’t add up.

I mean you do have the rest of the allegations which are so much worse than the jeans comment. Plus I feel like there may be more to it for Cyril since Kennett from what we know isn’t going to being involved in any of the mediation. Cyril is the figurehead over the others the same way Burt is not the figurehead of the allegations over Fagan and Clarkson. I would easily argue that Fagan have been accused of less the same as how Cyril most likely hasn’t accused the worst.

The media want clicks and it more likely to get it from presenting the situation as Cyril vs Clarkson than Carl Peterson vs Jason Burt.

Charlie and the indigenous players are in a hive mind with the rest of the indigenous Australians. I don’t think Charlie personally knew any of the accusers very well but is close to Fagan. The other indigenous Hawthorn players probably all knew Fagan better than all the accusers bar Cyril, since the rest of the players that accused has limited stints at the club. The reality is that misogynists can have wives, homophobes can have gay friends and racists can have black friends/partners. Relationships are complicated and people can often still maintain relationships with people despite these things.

In addition to all that, people have different support networks and support structures and sometimes that doesn’t involve essentially coworkers. Most of the accusers seem to have short stints when they were young where it makes sense that they wouldn’t go open up about their trauma to 30+ year old Burgoyne. It also I think creates the expectation that they even understood what was happening at the time was wrong, which is common among young people when facing abusive behaviour.

I think the idea that Burgoyne and others should have known creates unrealistic expectations on all that they should have all acted perfectly when faced with what they went through. It’s the same idea of asking a rape victim why they didn’t fight back enough or a parent why they didn’t know their partner was abusing their child. These situations are always messy and to expect a perfect response is to expect the perfect person.

 

[martinson]

MSN

 

[buttermuffs]

Let’s just ignore the 100,000’s of Indians, chinese and many other asian countries (not forgetting the usual suspects from NZ, UK) that have come to Australia for a better life

You mean countries that were exploited for hundreds of years (only about a century for China) for labour and resources that only served to benefit the increase of wealth in the countries exploiting them? But it’s cool right because India has had 70 years to catch up and it’s there fault they couldn’t do it quick enough?

GTFO with this revisionist BS.


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[martinson]

One thing that stood out to me in the Rioli's statement was the assertion that Hawthorn had control over their lives and their futures. This is someone on 800k/year.

Also the suggestion that Kennett 'declared psychological and spiritual warfare on us' is just plain nonsense. He was ducking for cover. The media and everyone else had it in for him.

I just shakes me head at what this has become off the basis of what has been alleged. Before you work out if it's proven.

 

[Viceregal]

I thought it was vowsh?

Edit: I will also stop now.


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points to the politics thread over in the Den




Yes I know it isn't just you but you could show some leadership by replying to the comments here over there and help it move over...

 

[T Rick]

MSN

So the open letter to the public by the Rioli group stating that they never sought financial compensation was a blatant lie?

 

[BangyBangy]

So the open letter to the public by the Rioli group stating that they never sought financial compensation was a blatant lie?

I guess it would be difficult to request compensation without a paper trail. If it exists then it will be found.

However there's a difference in Cyril wanting to be paid out his contract or equivalent earnings vs damages from alleged racist abuse.

 

[Brett C]

You mean countries that were exploited for hundreds of years (only about a century for China) for labour and resources that only served to benefit the increase of wealth in the countries exploiting them? But it’s cool right because India has had 70 years to catch up and it’s there fault they couldn’t do it quick enough?

GTFO with this revisionist BS.


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I’m guessing didn’t actually read my post but to equate it with revisionism is plainly wrong.

1+1 must equal 3 in your mind

 

[martinson]

I guess it would be difficult to request compensation without a paper trail. If it exists then it will be found.

However there's a difference in Cyril wanting to be paid out his contract or equivalent earnings vs damages from alleged racist abuse.

Agree separate issues. As I understand it he was paid for the year he had left at the time.

But what I do know is that Hawthorn did all they could to keep him playing.

And then other clubs rolled out the red carpet to get him to sign on.

He knew he was loved and admired by nearly everyone in the game.

For whatever reason he stopped playing because he didn't want to train and play any more.

I guess the depth and extent of racist abuse will be outlined at the HRC. And I presume the basis on which he alleges he ended his career.

 

[Some_guy]

Agree separate issues. As I understand it he was paid for the year he had left at the time.

But what I do know is that Hawthorn did all they could to keep him playing.

And then other clubs rolled out the red carpet to get him to sign on.

He knew he was loved and admired by nearly everyone in the game.

For whatever reason he stopped playing because he didn't want to train and play any more.

I guess the depth and extent of racist abuse will be outlined at the HRC. And I presume the basis on which he alleges he ended his career.

I don't think it was because he didn't want to train or play anymore. I saw him after hawthorn, still training/running in Darwin. Obviously not to the same AFL standards. I very much think he became disillusioned with AFL, which seemingly was because of racism.

 

[M Malice]

I would like to hear Fagan, Clarkson and Burt's version of events re the pregnancy issue.... some of the rhetoric/innuendo going around about that event is horrific eg. told his partner needed to get an abortion.. demanded the abortion etc.

IMO if abortion was mentioned it would have been along with a set of options if a young player came to a welfare officer at a club distressed with the situation and worried about his future... abortion after all is not an illegal procedure, some of the talk on other boards discussing the issue seem to view it as abetting a murder.

 

[mighty_lions]

I would like to hear Fagan, Clarkson and Burt's version of events re the pregnancy issue.... some of the rhetoric/innuendo going around about that event is horrific eg. told his partner needed to get an abortion.. demanded the abortion etc.

IMO if abortion was mentioned it would have been along with a set of options if a young player came to a welfare officer at a club distressed with the situation and worried about his future... abortion after all is not an illegal procedure, some of the talk on other boards discussing the issue seem to view it as abetting a murder.

I posted in this thread at the beginning and got howled down suggesting abortion is a legal option

 

[Elixuh]

I posted in this thread at the beginning and got howled down suggesting abortion is a legal option

The legal status of abortion is not relevant and isn’t in issue.