News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[thehardway]

Graduate of the Hawthorn University, write your own rules.

The fact they had a former underage player, police force member, Indigenous cultural trainer and respected person in these settings as the Indigenous Liaison Officer at the club means they can’t claim ignorance. It makes it worse Leon Egan was kept at arms length.

Burt should have been there only if asked. The coaches, no ‘ken way. Wtf was going through their minds. This is the same Clarkson who chose a post grand final press conference to talk about Jill Meagher.

You will see advertisements for these roles now ask for backgrounds you say. Is it enforced? People (I would say most) in club HR actually don’t understand these professions. When you see an ex player in these roles, ask what training they have? It really is a degree and experience as a minimum.

I think you're being very unfair to Jason Burt. He was at the club for 12+ years and you're highlighting one incident. Sure, he probably regrets how that was handled but was it racist? Absolutely not. You need to be very careful attacking his integrity and taking cheap shots from the cheap seats

 

[Bugs1977]

Titus O'Reily says with humour ...

A highly unhelpful guide to Round Thirteen

The only guide to the round that admits it’s completely unhelpful. What it lacks in insight, it makes up for with wild theories and detours onto unrelat

www.titusoreily.com

TO bang on

 

[HeHateMe]

Is it upon the AFL to now ask all past players if they have any problems with any club?

Surely they know how to run such a thing properly...

Yep your job now or admit it's not a perfect science and get off your high horse.

 

[Brishawk]

On Burt:

Burt taught with Clarkson's wife, Caryn, at Melbourne Grammar School – where he worked between 1997 and 2001 – so there is a longstanding relationship there that pre-dates Hawthorn.

 

[brad sue well]

I think you're being very unfair to Jason Burt. He was at the club for 12+ years and you're highlighting one incident. Sure, he probably regrets how that was handled but was it racist? Absolutely not. You need to be very careful attacking his integrity and taking cheap shots from the cheap seats

Not sure you have read much here if you see this all as one incident. There are at least 6 families, all of which are under Burt’s care.


12 years makes it worse, should somehow know better through that experience. He literally had an internal worker next to him and somehow didn’t use him and consciously sidelined him.

Burt was in charge. Buck stops there, Fagan on top of him. He had Leon, he had the AFLPA and all their resources and staff. Clubs can also seek whoever they want to help.

This singular incident described by him shows how much he stuffed up.

These roles have fundamentals, not sure he really knew them.

Like Burt, I studied teaching at the same time as him. He and Cam Matthew’s sat next to me at drug rehab promotion, I say this as I am quite familiar with the area. I assume Burt did the AFL training in this area like I did. These all touch on tailoring work to suit the person/people and culturally. Boundaries are a key here, it wasn’t for him unless permission was given even if he is in charge; seems odd but these situations require it, professionally. It shows up that Burt finds himself in these situations without questioning why things got so incredibly drastic.

We differ on racism here, my thread posts here cover it.

 

[seysearles]

Not sure you have read much here if you see this all as one incident. There are at least 6 families, all of which are under Burt’s care.


12 years makes it worse, should somehow know better through that experience. He literally had an internal worker next to him and somehow didn’t use him and consciously sidelined him.

Burt was in charge. Buck stops there, Fagan on top of him. He had Leon, he had the AFLPA and all their resources and staff. Clubs can also seek whoever they want to help.

This singular incident described by him shows how much he stuffed up.

These roles have fundamentals, not sure he really knew them.

Like Burt, I studied teaching at the same time as him. He and Cam Matthew’s sat next to me at drug rehab promotion, I say this as I am quite familiar with the area. I assume Burt did the AFL training in this area like I did. These all touch on tailoring work to suit the person/people and culturally. Boundaries are a key here, it wasn’t for him unless permission was given even if he is in charge; seems odd but these situations require it, professionally. It shows up that Burt finds himself in these situations without questioning why things got so incredibly drastic.

We differ on racism here, my thread posts here cover it.

I'm with thehardway

 

[thehardway]

Not sure you have read much here if you see this all as one incident. There are at least 6 families, all of which are under Burt’s care.


12 years makes it worse, should somehow know better through that experience. He literally had an internal worker next to him and somehow didn’t use him and consciously sidelined him.

Burt was in charge. Buck stops there, Fagan on top of him. He had Leon, he had the AFLPA and all their resources and staff. Clubs can also seek whoever they want to help.

This singular incident described by him shows how much he stuffed up.

These roles have fundamentals, not sure he really knew them.

Like Burt, I studied teaching at the same time as him. He and Cam Matthew’s sat next to me at drug rehab promotion, I say this as I am quite familiar with the area. I assume Burt did the AFL training in this area like I did. These all touch on tailoring work to suit the person/people and culturally. Boundaries are a key here, it wasn’t for him unless permission was given even if he is in charge; seems odd but these situations require it, professionally. It shows up that Burt finds himself in these situations without questioning why things got so incredibly drastic.

We differ on racism here, my thread posts here cover it.

I've read enough here to know that you're gunning for him based on one incident and some spurious arguments and hearsay.

 

[brad sue well]

I've read enough here to know that you're gunning for him based on one incident and some spurious arguments and hearsay.

You’ve read me reasonably well. I’ve said why elsewhere, been very clear and not hiding from why. I replied to his first The Age article slamming the red flags.

All four have stuffed up majorly is how I see it, on all allegations. Throw in Newbold. They aren’t Indigenous or were given permission.

A pretty big failing is a footy department that chose to delve into issues beyond their collective capabilities.

They’ve denied and damaged lives (not ignoring unnecessary tardy recent AFL work unhealthy for anyone, frankly it doesn’t compare).

If you have new info to make me think otherwise, feel free to dm if it isn’t for public consumption.

Sorry to upset you and others.

 

[BobHawk]

Not sure you have read much here if you see this all as one incident. There are at least 6 families, all of which are under Burt’s care.


12 years makes it worse, should somehow know better through that experience. He literally had an internal worker next to him and somehow didn’t use him and consciously sidelined him.

Burt was in charge. Buck stops there, Fagan on top of him. He had Leon, he had the AFLPA and all their resources and staff. Clubs can also seek whoever they want to help.

This singular incident described by him shows how much he stuffed up.

These roles have fundamentals, not sure he really knew them.

Like Burt, I studied teaching at the same time as him. He and Cam Matthew’s sat next to me at drug rehab promotion, I say this as I am quite familiar with the area. I assume Burt did the AFL training in this area like I did. These all touch on tailoring work to suit the person/people and culturally. Boundaries are a key here, it wasn’t for him unless permission was given even if he is in charge; seems odd but these situations require it, professionally. It shows up that Burt finds himself in these situations without questioning why things got so incredibly drastic.

We differ on racism here, my thread posts here cover it.

This would be a big problem for Burt (and Clarkson and Fagan). Did they consciously elect to work around Egan? And this would seem to be a big part of Egan's issues (if my understanding is correct).

I also recall that there was almost an obsession with Clarkson with hiring teachers because of their experience working with young people. However, in hindsight if they were performing work with First Nation kids and social work in general without qualifications or experience then big problem. If Burt just basically came from a private school background (not sure of his full work history) then that is a problem again. I mean, teachers are teachers. Good and bad and certainly the broader societal knowledge and experience is not something they tend to be expert at. One of the things that keeps coming up (at least in my mind) is a sort of ignorance or naivete with the three accused in dealing with First Nation people.

Anyway, these are the sorts of things that will emerge from the Worksafe investigation and subsequent HRC hearing.

 

[macdaddio]

And why not? If someone had accused you and you had not been given an opportunity to respond you'd be filthy too!

And what about their team mate Cyril?

Every time they talk it’s all about how hard done by Clarko is and the HFC should be made accountable for it’s wrong doing, but they never mention once how hard done by Cyril was by Clarko’s wrong doing!

If the HFC should be made accountable by it’s wrong doing to Clarko then that means everything Cyril has said that happened didn’t happen.

They can’t have it both ways.

If Cyril is right then the HFC didn’t do anything wrong.

If Clarko is right then Cyril is wrong and the HFC is punished for Cyril’s lies.!!

 

[cryptor]

I like that we forwarded the reported, then we the club should of then attempted to mediation with the club, officials and players in question.

Not attempting to facilitate mediation was absolutely the right move by the club. It would've been a massive conflict of interest.

 

[brad sue well]

This would be a big problem for Burt (and Clarkson and Fagan). Did they consciously elect to work around Egan? And this would seem to be a big part of Egan's issues (if my understanding is correct).

I also recall that there was almost an obsession with Clarkson with hiring teachers because of their experience working with young people. However, in hindsight if they were performing work with First Nation kids and social work in general without qualifications or experience then big problem. If Burt just basically came from a private school background (not sure of his full work history) then that is a problem again. I mean, teachers are teachers. Good and bad and certainly the broader societal knowledge and experience is not something they tend to be expert at. One of the things that keeps coming up (at least in my mind) is a sort of ignorance or naivete with the three accused in dealing with Fist Nation people.

Anyway, these are the sorts of things that will emerge from the Worksafe investigation and subsequent HRC hearing.

If Leon Egan wasn’t, there, he wasn’t there no matter how last minute the visit was.

The Age article outlined Egan’s gripes.

Teaching for me covered Indigenous issues, I studied in the late 90s. It also covered using wellbeing workers at school and clear boundaries and consent and learning about individuals in their context. Hawthorn University was all teachers.

Jordan Lewis was impressed with Cam Matthews at Xavier? where he was coaching and then he came to HFC.

Burt said a situation got edgy, he chose to step down when it was his turn to go (tell the coaches to nick off) as John Kennedy would say. I’ve based my replies on his two public comments.

One private school has an absolutely brilliant Indigenous worker, qualified in threes ways, a stack of experience. I wonder if they got lucky or knew what they were looking for.

 

[Crankyhawk]

The Hawks and Pies are the only two clubs whom have had the guts to ask the hard questions about first nation and player management, in an effort to improve. Kudos to the Pies and us.

The other clubs should be required to do the same review. Maybe then they will appriceate how complex this all is to handle.

My recollection is that Sydney and Fremantle both announced they would do similar reviews- will try to find link later

 

[Mercy Seat]

And what about their team mate Cyril?

Every time they talk it’s all about how hard done by Clarko is and the HFC should be made accountable for it’s wrong doing, but they never mention once how hard done by Cyril was by Clarko’s wrong doing!

If the HFC should be made accountable by it’s wrong doing to Clarko then that means everything Cyril has said that happened didn’t happen.

They can’t have it both ways.

If Cyril is right then the HFC didn’t do anything wrong.

If Clarko is right then Cyril is wrong and the HFC is punished for Cyril’s lies.!!

To be fair, what we know to date, Clarko and Cyril's claims aren't in conflict with each other. In fact Cyril said last year quite positive things about Clarkson and his issues seem to be more broadly with the club.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

My recollection is that Sydney and Fremantle both announced they would do similar reviews- will try to find link later

After the reaming we’re copping:

 

[The Jet From Poowong]

My recollection is that Sydney and Fremantle both announced they would do similar reviews- will try to find link later

I don't recall that they absolutely said they would, I think in the early days of the story breaking they welcomed the opportunity to do a similar reviews of their pasts.

Just don't bring it up now. Because the AFL will not want to know about it or else be warned.

 

[Brishawk]

After the reaming we’re copping:

View attachment 1707310

And the afl want to punish us so no club ever checks on the welfare of their past players again!

 

[thehardway]

You’ve read me reasonably well. I’ve said why elsewhere, been very clear and not hiding from why. I replied to his first The Age article slamming the red flags.

All four have stuffed up majorly is how I see it, on all allegations. Throw in Newbold. They aren’t Indigenous or were given permission.

A pretty big failing is a footy department that chose to delve into issues beyond their collective capabilities.

They’ve denied and damaged lives (not ignoring unnecessary tardy recent AFL work unhealthy for anyone, frankly it doesn’t compare).

If you have new info to make me think otherwise, feel free to dm if it isn’t for public consumption.

Sorry to upset you and others.

You haven't upset me and it's your right to believe the accusers but you've crossed the line in your largely unsubstantiated attack on Jason Burt.

 

[brad sue well]

You haven't upset me and it's your right to believe the accusers but you've crossed the line in your largely unsubstantiated attack on Jason Burt.

All good.

If you want to pull my argument apart, I have no qualms. See if it stands up.

The relevant post is the early morning of the Burt, The Age article.

*i think HFC were quite negligent given the people there. eg Jeff, head of Beyond Blue, what did he do ensure policy/procedure in his first phase was sound. That would have been there to support all staff in the football department. Jeff was/is head of an Indigenous organisation. Or another, where was the doctor? A key role that hasn’t been considered. I doubt the doctor got involved going by what a player once told me re how Clarkson berated him in front of the club when a player was re-injured. Clarkson ruled.

It might surprise i don’t think HFC should be penalised by the league.

 

[Gaborone]

And what about their team mate Cyril?

Every time they talk it’s all about how hard done by Clarko is and the HFC should be made accountable for it’s wrong doing, but they never mention once how hard done by Cyril was by Clarko’s wrong doing!

If the HFC should be made accountable by it’s wrong doing to Clarko then that means everything Cyril has said that happened didn’t happen.

They can’t have it both ways.

If Cyril is right then the HFC didn’t do anything wrong.

If Clarko is right then Cyril is wrong and the HFC is punished for Cyril’s lies.!!

What I find challenging is that so many commentators on this site presume to be judge, jury and executioner. All I want is the truth, not opinion!

 

[Yardie]

What I find challenging is that so many commentators on this site presume to be judge, jury and executioner. All I want is the truth, not opinion!

You want the truth but your opinion, from what I read, starts from the coaches being completely innocent. The other posters that you have an issue with, also want the truth but start from a position that the players are telling the truth. Both positions are valid to have but each side has to realise that their opinion is biased by their starting position. And that is ok.

But don't attack other peoples opinions because they don't align with your starting position under the guise of "I want the truth".

 

[thehardway]

All good.

If you want to pull my argument apart, I have no qualms. See if it stands up.

The relevant post is the early morning of the Burt, The Age article.

*i think HFC were quite negligent given the people there. eg Jeff, head of Beyond Blue, what did he do ensure policy/procedure in his first phase was sound. That would have been there to support all staff in the football department. Jeff was/is head of an Indigenous organisation. Or another, where was the doctor? A key role that hasn’t been considered. I doubt the doctor got involved going by what a player once told me re how Clarkson berated him in front of the club when a player was re-injured. Clarkson ruled.

It might surprise i don’t think HFC should be penalised by the league.

I'm not going to engage with an argument that is based on speculation and hearsay.

 

[Yardie]

I'm not going to engage with an argument that is based on speculation and hearsay.

This whole thread is based on speculation and hearsay. Based on your logic you shouldn't be posting in here at all.

 

[macdaddio]

What I find challenging is that so many commentators on this site presume to be judge, jury and executioner. All I want is the truth, not opinion!

We’re all frustrated and hurt with what’s going on with our club so we’re all coming in here to vent.

 

[thehardway]

This whole thread is based on speculation and hearsay. Based on your logic you shouldn't be posting in here at all.

Maybe but there are still lines that shouldn't be crossed. it's got my back up that a long time servant of the HFC has had his integrity, credentials and reputation trashed by people here that really have f#all evidence and jacksh#t knowledge of what actually happened.