Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Dewyyyyy]

What counts as a consistent run? Wasn't he fit all of last year? He just played VFL for most of it. And he played 20 games across both levels the year before. So he's hardly been injury riddled.

Surely if Hawthorn rated him anywhere near his draft rating they wouldn't be leaving him in the VFL in his 3rd season when they're rebuilding.

Took a big step this off season with his body, was looking good and came off back end form at VFL level which was class. He had a setback before that and was in and out of the AFL side playing different roles, cemented CHB once he went back for a block of VFL games and was preparing for 2024. Injury has subdued this although looks good and coming back from injury in the next week or so.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Highly talented is debatable. He’s a fourth year player stuck in the VFL at a rebuilding Hawthorn who are crying out for a gun CHB. Gibcus and Andrew had no problem cementing their positions in better sides and they are a year younger. Similar draft picks. You said it yourself, in his best game at CHB he had 6 marks and 4 spoils. What a player.

If he gets to the level of Mitch McGovern, that is a decent interceptor in a top 6 side, Conman Sam and the recruiters would be over the moon. He is coming from a long way back.

Injured

So stuck at VFL as a current statement is completely false

Gibcus has played 2 games in 2 years
Solidified?
Please

He may have started the year, but if you can’t get on the park, that’s not a solidified position

DGB will have the back half of the year to earn a new deal, see how it goes

Unsure why Carlton are so preoccupied with Hawthorn, really strange

 

[Judd2Sewell]

DGB's issue is that he cannot put on size and is not fit enough. He has the skill and talent to become a very good player otherwise, but his physical limitations will hold him back. Ward will be a good player for a long time, IMO.

I think the main issue is the club is pretty poor with player development in general.

MacDonald and Ward both looked good in their first seasons, and both have some classy AFL traits/skills, but they have not really developed since. Butler was drafted as an exciting HFF-come-midfielder, but has looked so lost playing as a forward pocket and was seemingly destined to become a depth-only candidate prior to this horrific injury.

Stephens hasn't improved at all since playing a few games at Geelong before being traded to us. He's a certainty to be delisted now. How does he go from playing several games for a much better side to not even being close to getting games for us?

I think maybe we aren't making it easy for them. Ward, MacDonald and Butler have all played other roles outside of their main strengths. Hopefully it's coming together slower than we'd have liked because of this, but if I'm to project I think Ward will become a good player, MacDonald will remain a flaky HFF and Butler will last one more year on the list.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

DGB's issue is that he cannot put on size and is not fit enough. He has the skill and talent to become a very good player otherwise, but his physical limitations will hold him back. Ward will be a good player for a long time, IMO.

I think the main issue is the club is pretty poor with player development in general.

MacDonald and Ward both looked good in their first seasons, and both have some classy AFL traits/skills, but they have not really developed since. Butler was drafted as an exciting HFF-come-midfielder, but has looked so lost playing as a forward pocket and was seemingly destined to become a depth-only candidate prior to this horrific injury.

Stephens hasn't improved at all since playing a few at Geelong before being traded to us. He's a certainty to be delisted now. How does he go from playing several games for a much better side to not even being close to getting games for us?

I think maybe we aren't making it easy for them. Ward, MacDonald and Butler have all played other roles outside of their main strengths. Hopefully it's coming together slower than we'd have liked because of this, but if I'm to project I think Ward will become a good player, MacDonald will remain a flaky HFF and Butler will last one more year on the list.

We have better inside Mid options in Worpel and Newk than Geelong had at the time

Ward will be fine, as will be CMac, butler will struggle

So Glad we took Ward over Hobbs

Need to be given time to grow into those roles

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Injured

So stuck at VFL as a current statement is completely false

Gibcus has played 2 games in 2 years
Solidified?
Please

He may have started the year, but if you can’t get on the park, that’s not a solidified position

DGB will have the back half of the year to earn a new deal, see how it goes

Unsure why Carlton are so preoccupied with Hawthorn, really strange

Played plenty of VFL footy in 2023. Gibcus actually plays seniors when he isn’t injured. In a better side.

I enjoy discussing football not which teams we all support. If that bothers you I’m sorry.

 

[VinnieB]

Trained all pre season in defense

Tried forward, looked okay but didn’t work. Played VFL as a defender end of last year and played well

Will come back from injury and play defense in the VFL till he’s ready for AFL footy.

You can’t be taken seriously.
Particularly when last season you were talking up Fergus Greene.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Played plenty of VFL footy in 2023. Gibcus actually plays seniors when he isn’t injured.

I enjoy discussing football not which teams we all support. If that bothers you I’m sorry.

Played more AFL games than Gibcus

Does that mean his solidified?
Because as you said, DGB is in the VFL currently, so Gibcus must be to?

Difference between discussing and being purposefully inflammatory

 

[BIGHAWK23]

You can’t be taken seriously.
Particularly when last season you were talking up Fergus Greene.

Leave Fergus alone

DGB will get his chance
All up to him from there

 

[Judd2Sewell]

We have better inside Mid options in Worpel and Newk than Geelong had at the time

Ward will be fine, as will be CMac, butler will struggle

So Glad we took Ward over Hobbs

Need to be given time to grow into those roles

Geelong won the flag. They had Selwood, Danger and Guthrie. They also had battling role-player like Atkins and O'Connor, they're the kind of jobbers that Geelong love and achieve success with. They also played Blicavs as a midfielder too at times.

Agree regarding Hobbs (and Erasmus).

 

[VinnieB]

Injured

So stuck at VFL as a current statement is completely false

Gibcus has played 2 games in 2 years
Solidified?
Please

He may have started the year, but if you can’t get on the park, that’s not a solidified position

DGB will have the back half of the year to earn a new deal, see how it goes

Unsure why Carlton are so preoccupied with Hawthorn, really strange

Gibcus is unlucky.
But when not injured, he is a senior AFL footballer.

Can’t be said for DGB, when he spent most of the last season in the VFL despite Hawthorn having the second or third worst defense in the game.

He gets opportunities and then is dropped.

Would he have played most of the games this season if not for injury? Unlikely.

Would Gibcus? More likely a lock.

Hawks didn’t do wrong in selecting DGB. Was considered one of the best backmen. Just hasn’t worked out at this stage for him. Just hurts a lot more when you are rebuilding and need to nail those early picks.

 

[VinnieB]

Geelong won the flag. They had Selwood, Danger and Guthrie. They also had battling role-player like Atkins and O'Connor, they're the kind of jobbers that Geelong love and achieve success with. They also played Blicavs as a midfielder too at times.

Agree regarding Hobbs (and Erasmus).

Hobbs is rubbish.
The Hawks don’t need another slow midfielder.

Amiss? He would have been a handy pickup.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Played more AFL games than Gibcus

Does that mean his solidified?
Because as you said, DGB is in the VFL currently, so Gibcus must be to?

Difference between discussing and being purposefully inflammatory

Where did I say he is currently playing VFL?

He was stuck there for a majority of the 2023 season, playing poorly down back so much so they moved him forward as a last resort. He hasn’t played a game this season. He isn’t ahead of Sicily, Blanck or Frost in a bottom 4 side. Gibcus is a best 22 player when fit, younger and has had better games at the level. It is an insult to compare the two.

Is there anything to indicate he isn’t a dud? Other than his draft pick position cuz Hawks?

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Hobbs is rubbish.
The Hawks don’t need another slow midfielder.

Amiss? He would have been a handy pickup.

Amiss would have been. But I'm not sure the club was ever considering him, rightly or wrongly.

Out of the players we were linked to we picked the right one. He's quick, has good skills and is a good decision maker. He is a real professional too (not saying the others aren't). He's on the smaller side of course, but I think he will end up justifying his draft position.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Mate, I'm sorry but DGB is a dud until he shows literally anything at the level. Ward looks an ok AFL player but doesnt have traits to be a gun, just helps you tread water. Do you think he can be anywhere near the level of Serong, Anderson, Rowell, Brayshaw, Green, Gulden, Walsh, Warner. All of these guys show a lot very quickly. This is my point with rebuilding, it's not even ok to just hit on "decent" players with a top 10, you have to hit on guns to compete and do it consistently

Ward is 20 years old.
He’s not had a great start to 2024, but which of our mids have.
He was averaging 20 disp a game last year, off the wing.

He looks like goes going to be a very good 200 game midfielder to my eyes.

As for DGB not showing anything at all, you must have missed his first few games. He had Kane Cornes pumping him up as the best kid in the draft at that stage.
He wasn’t just throwing a random name out there.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Highly talented is debatable. He’s a fourth year player stuck in the VFL at a rebuilding Hawthorn who are crying out for a gun CHB

You didn’t actually know that he’s been out all year did you?

Classic.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Ward is 20 years old FFS.
He’s not had a great start to 2024, but which of our mids have.
He was averaging 20 disp a game last year, off the wing.

He looks like goes going to be a very good 200 game midfielder to my eyes.

As for DGB not showing anything at all, you must have missed his first few games. He had Kane Cornes pumping him up as the best kid in the draft at that stage.
He wasn’t just throwing a random name out there.

I have admitted I’ve been harsh and gone early on Ward already, though I stand by him not getting to those names mentioned. I stand by DGB being a dud and will happily be corrected for a West Aussie if wrong.

I actually can’t believe you would use a Cornes opinion to justify his ability

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I have admitted I’ve been harsh and gone early on Ward already, though I stand by him not getting to those names mentioned. I stand by DGB being a dud and will happily be corrected for a West Aussie if wrong.

I actually can’t believe you would use a Cornes opinion to justify his ability

I’m not using Cornes opinion, but he’s clearly shown something for Cornes to even bother mentioning him. He hasn’t just plucked a name out of thin air.

Personally hate posters laying into kids calling them duds or busts. Drives me spare.

Parents of players read this s**t, and some of them even have to deal with mouthy *******s telling them what their kid needs to be better at.

 

[sr36]

And no, he’ll be better than Mitch McGovern once he gets continuity in his football. These opinions are why people on big footy are just fans. Biased fans, and not ever likely to be in a footballing department or recruiter/coach. Quick to shun youth and talented players and no be able to identify talent.

I know the wise old heads talk about patience and talls taking time, but the wise old heads haven't crunched the numbers. Very few blokes playing reserves in year 3 have a good career - tall or small.

 

[boncer34]

What counts as a consistent run? Wasn't he fit all of last year? He just played VFL for most of it. And he played 20 games across both levels the year before. So he's hardly been injury riddled.

Surely if Hawthorn rated him anywhere near his draft rating they wouldn't be leaving him in the VFL in his 3rd season when they're rebuilding.

You assumed I meant injury. I meant consistent run in one role in one team. KPPs take longer to develop, especially when you toss them around.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

You can’t be taken seriously.
Particularly when last season you were talking up Fergus Greene.

You can pull up receipts if you’d like, but my take on Fergus never changed. He had some good qualities and played well especially early doors. As a third tall he just wasn’t as productive as he needed to be, therefore his spot was lost. Just didn’t have the pace to keep up with AFL. But still used his smarts to be decent early doors.

But it’s funny “can’t be taken seriously” I won’t say it but many would think the same about yourself.

I’m mature enough to say some of my takes as anybody is capable of making are wrong. Being wrong is apart of life, live and learn. Everyone makes mistakes, from head coaches to biased fans and people in the middle.

 

[boncer34]

Mate, I'm sorry but DGB is a dud until he shows literally anything at the level. Ward looks an ok AFL player but doesnt have traits to be a gun, just helps you tread water. Do you think he can be anywhere near the level of Serong, Anderson, Rowell, Brayshaw, Green, Gulden, Walsh, Warner. All of these guys show a lot very quickly. This is my point with rebuilding, it's not even ok to just hit on "decent" players with a top 10, you have to hit on guns to compete and do it consistently

"DGB has shown nothing at any level"

I dont know how after 4 years, DGB can be labelled anything but a dud, a couple of games here or there doesnt matter. You say take time but compare to the key position players from that top 10 to see how little he's shown in comparison.

Ward I'll apologise, say there is time to show me up though I still think he'll be a good to ok AFL player with no elite traits.

"DGB has shown something but it doesn't count"

Usually posters wait a couple of posts before shifting goal posts but you ran straight to it.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Mate, I'm sorry but DGB is a dud until he shows literally anything at the level. Ward looks an ok AFL player but doesnt have traits to be a gun, just helps you tread water. Do you think he can be anywhere near the level of Serong, Anderson, Rowell, Brayshaw, Green, Gulden, Walsh, Warner. All of these guys show a lot very quickly. This is my point with rebuilding, it's not even ok to just hit on "decent" players with a top 10, you have to hit on guns to compete and do it consistently

Agree DGB is a wasted top 10 pick

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

You didn’t actually know that he’s been out all year did you?

Classic.

14 of his last 21 games at VFL level. He isnt in bottom 4 Hawthorn’s best 22.

Do you want me to call him an AFL superstar so you feel better about your bust?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I’m not using Cornes opinion, but he’s clearly shown something for Cornes to even bother mentioning him. He hasn’t just plucked a name out of thin air.

Personally hate posters laying into kids calling them duds or busts. Drives me spare.

Parents of players read this s**t, and some of them even have to deal with mouthy *******s telling them what their kid needs to be better at.

Spot on

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I know the wise old heads talk about patience and talls taking time, but the wise old heads haven't crunched the numbers. Very few blokes playing reserves in year 3 have a good career - tall or small.

That’s just dumb. Ward averaged 20 on a wing in his second season and looked superb, form fluctuates especially early doors, his ability doesn’t go down just because he’s developing parts of his game in the 2s in his third season. Same goes for talls and DGB. Who get more time.