How did the AFL get the Giants so right?!

[Damon_3388]

Yep, they've worked out how to turn their initial draft concessions into a perpetual first round machine.

Trades like the Dees taking Tyson off them and using it to get Josh Kelly.

They seem pretty good at identifying pretty early who will eventually "come on" and who won't. Other clubs took on guys like Tyson, Jon O'Rourke, Kristian Jaksch, Liam Sumner, etc., expecting a whole lot of untapped potential that never eventuated.

Even "the good ones" they've let go netted a premium in return.

 

[Damon_3388]

They were still dealt a great hand to start with. Not really sure how that can be disputed tbh.

It's not being disputed. They just didn't hit with every initial draft pick either.

 

[Damon_3388]

GWS success is purely because of Sydney's 1.30am lockout laws. The players couldn't go out at night, even if they wanted to.

You realise lock-out times aren't the same as closing time, right?

 

[Damon_3388]

A team full of 1st round picks, more money than everyone else, in the beautiful city that is Sydney (at least in the rich part where the good players would live), without the fishbowl of Melbourne. It's really mindblowing how it all came together.

Both GWS and Richmond have the same number of former top 20 draft picks in the sides they have named for tomorrow...

EDIT:

GWS
Heath Shaw - Pick #48, 2003 National Draft
Sam Reid - Pick #35, 2007 National Draft
Shane Mumford - Pick #57, 2007 Rookie Draft
Phil Davis - Pick #10, 2008 National Draft
Matt De Boer - Pick #19, 2008 Rookie Draft
Jeremy Cameron - 2011 Pre-Listing Selection
Adam Kennedy - 2011 Pre-Listing Selection
Nick Haynes - Pick #7, 2011 National Draft
Adam Tomlinson - Pick #9, 2011 National Draft
Toby Greene - Pick #11, 2011 National Draft
Lachie Whitfield - Pick #1, 2012 National Draft
Aidan Corr - Pick #14, 2012 National Draft
Zach Williams - Pick #54, 2012 Rookie Draft
Josh Kelly - Pick #2, 2013 National Draft
Jeremy Finlayson - Pick #85, 2014 National Draft
Jacob Hopper - Pick #7, 2015 National Draft
Harrison Himmelberg - Pick #16, 2015 National Draft
Daniel Lloyd - Pick #26, 2015 Rookie Draft
Tim Taranto - Pick #2, 2016 National Draft
Harry Perryman - Pick #14, 2016 National Draft
Brent Daniels - Pick #27, 2017 National Draft
Sam Taylor - Pick #28, 2017 National Draft

Richmond
Jack Riewoldt - Pick #13, 2006 National Draft
Shane Edwards - Pick #26, 2006 National Draft
Bachar Houli - Pick #42, 2006 National Draft
Trent Cotchin - Pick #2, 2007 National Draft
Dustin Martin - Pick #3, 2009 National Draft
David Astbury - Pick #35, 2009 National Draft
Dylan Grimes - Pick #2, 2009 Pre-Season Draft
Josh Caddy - Pick #7, 2010 National Draft
Dion Prestia - Pick #9, 2010 National Draft
Tom Lynch - Pick #11, 2010 National Draft
Brandon Ellis - Pick #15, 2011 National Draft
Nick Vlastuin - Pick #9, 2012 National Draft
Toby Nankervis - Pick #35, 2013 National Draft
Jayden Short - Pick #14, 2014 Rookie Draft
Jason Castagna - Pick #29, 2014, Rookie Draft
Kane Lambert - Pick #46, 2014 Rookie Draft
Ivan Soldo - Pick #48, 2014 Rookie Draft
Daniel Rioli - Pick #15, 2015 National Draft
Nathan Broad - Pick #67, 2015 National Draft
Shai Bolton - Pick #29, 2016 National Draft
Liam Baker - Pick #18, 2017 Rookie Draft
Marlion Pickett - Pick #13, 2019 Mid-Season Draft

Well, 11 vs. 9 on the top 20s, and 13 vs. 11 on top 30s, and 14 vs. 13 on top 40s. Not a huge difference in the talent spread purely by draft positions, really.

Both teams have really been built through the draft; Each has 17 players who have just played for their club only since being drafted, and 5 "trade-ins" apiece, as well.

 

[Damon_3388]

Didnt they basically ignore the AFLs recommendations for list management? They didn't go for 25+ stars, they used their cap on young talented early 20s (Ward, Davis, Scully) and then brought in winners like Brogan, Cornes and Power to set the culture and be effectively on-field coaches for the young guys while they were getting spanked.

They didn't want to compete immediately, it was always a 5+ year plan to get to the top. Also had the right coaching, admin and players locations down as people have mentioned

There was no "AFL recommendation" as to how they were to use their draft picks and cap space, different to how they actually did it. It's all played out exactly as planned, because its been managed well beyond the initial drafts.

 

[greatgatsby]

A team full of 1st round picks, more money than everyone else, in the beautiful city that is Sydney (at least in the rich part where the good players would live), without the fishbowl of Melbourne. It's really mindblowing how it all came together.

Time to let go of this draft concession stuff. They've made a whole lot of better decisions in recent years than the club we support - that's why they're there and we're 13th. And I'm here to tell you Freo and surrounds are as attractive a destination as anything else in the AFL.

 

[StonesThrow]

All it needed was some reasonable management. They've probably got another 5 years of reaping the benefits from the early concessions.

 

[Chaisa]

Key factors that they got right in contrast to Gold Coast:

* Use of the mini-draft (although I don't think they got anyone great out of it)
* Original signings. GWS knew they'd suck for their first few years and instead decided to sign experienced hard-head leaders (Cornes, Power, McDonald, Brogan) who had been there/done that and would set an excellent example for their next generation stars, as well as young guys with upside noted for their leadership (Davis, Ward, Scully).

In contrast, who did the Suns pick up? Ablett is obviously a superstar but he's not a great leader and frankly seemed in it purely for the money. Campbell Brown was best known for bashing someone and I think Bock's behaviour wasn't stellar either. Brennan is arguably the sport's biggest underachiever and Krakouer left after a year which says all you need to know. That leaves Rischitelli who while a good player isn't all that special in terms of talent and leadership (IMO) and Fraser who was well and truly past it and also didn't seem all that special in terms of leadership.
* Good coaching choices. Choco and Sheedy were perfect fits for young and developing players, and knew how to harness their players to their best potential. McKenna was largely untested and had no real experienced support behind him.
* Fewer busts in drafting, though admittedly development helps here too.
* Smarter trading. This admittedly could be down to better picks/depth, but it feels like the Giants have done extremely well in terms of moving on unwanted/unrequired talent and get good draft picks to replace them. After their first year it didn't feel like the Suns did all that well in terms of palming off unneeded talent.
* Good post-introduction signings. For example, in 2013 they noticed their weaknesses and picked up Mumford and Shaw who were unwanted but were clearly class players. And in recent times you've had Daniel Lloyd and Matt de Boer types who were on the scrapheap but could add something to the Giants side. I don't think the Suns really did the same, at least before everything went to s**t up there.
* Having a proper training centre rather than demountables.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

GWS are probably just run better than Gold Coast.

A couple of factors that may have contributed
- GWS had more concessions and salary cap assistance early on
- GWS academy has been much more advantageous than the Gold Coast one. Those who've made an impact on the league ( Williams / Finlayson / Steele / Hopper / Kennedy / Himmelberg / Setterfield / Perryman vs Sexton / Joyce / Bowes)
- GWS have drafted better. Gold Coast have drafted a lot of flakey, flanker types that haven't come on. GWS have a much better balance in their squad, lots of hard nosed win it yourself types.

Despite all their failures Gold Coast weren't far away from having it click. They were on track for finals before Ablett's injury against Collingwood, probably in the midst of Ablett's best year. At the end of the 2014 season they had a really formidable midfield, Ablett (30yo), Bennell (21, 66 games), Prestia (21, 73), Swallow (21, 73) and O'Meara (20, 44) as well as some good young KPP at either end, Dixon (24, 49), Thompson (23, 53), May (22, 53), Day (22, 64) and Lynch (21, 60). Their bottom six were still pretty bad but also had Rischitelli (28), Broughton (28), Harbrow (26) and Smith (24). Martin and Kolodjashnij had decent debut seasons as well. Could never have imagined it blowing up as spectacularly as it ended up doing.

Midfield never got close to playing together again and have never been able to draft the replacements.

Bennell - 15 games in 2015 then traded to Fremantle
Prestia - 8 games in 2015, 14 games in 2016 then traded to Richmond
O’ Meara - 0 games in 2015 & 2016 then traded to Hawthorn
Ablett - 6 games in 2015, 14 games in 2016, 14 games in 2017 then traded back to Geelong
Swallow - 6 games in 2015, 0 games in 2016, has stayed at GC

Whenever GWS have lost a quality mid they've been able to replace them quickly with the next ones. Hopper and Taranto being the latest inclusions. Despite a fair few top ten picks they haven't really brought in any inside midfielders (Will Brodie probably the only one but hasn't come on yet, still time)

 

[Marc_Remillard]

More high draft picks and the best academy zones

 

[BEEG]

AFL can't take credit for GWS without taking blame for GCS

 

[big_e]

GWS are probably just run better than Gold Coast.

A couple of factors that may have contributed
- GWS had more concessions and salary cap assistance early on
- GWS academy has been much more advantageous than the Gold Coast one. Those who've made an impact on the league ( Williams / Finlayson / Steele / Hopper / Kennedy / Himmelberg / Setterfield / Perryman vs Sexton / Joyce / Bowes)
- GWS have drafted better. Gold Coast have drafted a lot of flakey, flanker types that haven't come on. GWS have a much better balance in their squad, lots of hard nosed win it yourself types.

Despite all their failures Gold Coast weren't far away from having it click. They were on track for finals before Ablett's injury against Collingwood, probably in the midst of Ablett's best year. At the end of the 2014 season they had a really formidable midfield, Ablett (30yo), Bennell (21, 66 games), Prestia (21, 73), Swallow (21, 73) and O'Meara (20, 44) as well as some good young KPP at either end, Dixon (24, 49), Thompson (23, 53), May (22, 53), Day (22, 64) and Lynch (21, 60). Their bottom six were still pretty bad but also had Rischitelli (28), Broughton (28), Harbrow (26) and Smith (24). Martin and Kolodjashnij had decent debut seasons as well. Could never have imagined it blowing up as spectacularly as it ended up doing.

Midfield never got close to playing together again and have never been able to draft the replacements.

Bennell - 15 games in 2015 then traded to Fremantle
Prestia - 8 games in 2015, 14 games in 2016 then traded to Richmond
O’ Meara - 0 games in 2015 & 2016 then traded to Hawthorn
Ablett - 6 games in 2015, 14 games in 2016, 14 games in 2017 then traded back to Geelong
Swallow - 6 games in 2015, 0 games in 2016, has stayed at GC

Whenever GWS have lost a quality mid they've been able to replace them quickly with the next ones. Hopper and Taranto being the latest inclusions. Despite a fair few top ten picks they haven't really brought in any inside midfielders (Will Brodie probably the only one but hasn't come on yet, still time)

Why they looked at 2014 - when they were in the eight going into round 17 - and thought Guy McKenna should be sacked is beyond me. They were going OK and have done nothing since.

I think they need a silver bullet coach like Barassi was at Sydney. Someone who commands respect and won't accept anything less than 100%. And if the AFL has to fork out $5m a year to get Clarkson or Hardwick etc up there for a few years then it's a sound investment.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

GWS and Gold Coast have both struggled to get a toe in to a market where the population may be great, but there are probably more rusted on football fans in Tasmania.

From an SMH article earlier this week...

AFL NSW CEO Sam Graham said the growth since the Giants' arrival had been "incredible".

There have been six new junior AFL clubs introduced in western Sydney since 2012 and there is now a club in all 14 western Sydney local government areas.

In addition to eight new or renovated fields, more than 60 schools have had AFL goal posts installed and participation in junior club football in western Sydney has doubled.

"It's a generational decision to start a club in a new area," he said. "There's a lot of support being generated for the Giants, which creates more interest in the game broadly."

"We're seeing consistent growth year-on-year

It’s called growing the game, or in other words “expansion”. I want there to be a team in Tasmania - there should be a team in Tasmania, but in putting a team in Tasmania, how many new converts to the game are you going to get? How many extra schools will be putting in posts that have never had them before? How many new junior clubs will you get?

6 new clubs in western Sydney - not teams - clubs.
60 schools putting in posts (and more going in every year)

The creation of the Giants was not just about extra TV revenue. It was - and is - about growing the game and we are doing that in spades.

But hey, facts and narratives and dogs supporters - what can you do.

 

[Rob]

Ablett was a cancer at the club.

Nah, he just wasn't a leader. He only fell into the position because he was a champion footballer, but most importantly the Suns had no-one else.

You look at the Giants - the captain is far from the most talented player. He's in the position because he's the best leader.

 

[Johnny Karate]

The biggest sliding doors moment (and not in a Damien Barrett sense) was when the Suns were in the 8 in 2014 and Ablett busted his shoulder. He hasn’t been quite the same since and neither has that club. They’ve bled players ever since. The initial recruiting wasn’t too bad.

The AFL dug a hole for the Gold Coast with rubbish facilities and apparatchik admin at set up. It was almost as though they considered Gold Coast an easy market and therefore did a complete rush job on them compared to GWS.

GWS just look like a real footy club. They have great membership numbers, a good (albeit seppo) mascot, a good jumper, good colours and a ripper club song. Gold Coast kind of look kitted up like Maccas fries, their mascot/moniker is ironically dull and uninspiring (more like a big bash franchise name than a footy club), and their song is bland.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Why they looked at 2014 - when they were in the eight going into round 17 - and thought Guy McKenna should be sacked is beyond me. They were going OK and have done nothing since.

I think they need a silver bullet coach like Barassi was at Sydney. Someone who commands respect and won't accept anything less than 100%. And if the AFL has to fork out $5m a year to get Clarkson or Hardwick etc up there for a few years then it's a sound investment.

Think the off-field stuff was more the reason with the McKenna sacking. And Rocket was meant to be the ‘silver bullet coach’.

 

[K_Nine]

Have to lol at people citing Ablett of all people. Jesus christ.

 

[100action]

ablett was extremely cancerous but GCS should have recognized he wasn't a leader and appointed others in to the role.

The fiasco involving Ablett's last contract was a disgrace and lowered Ablett's colours to below dirt level.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

The biggest sliding doors moment (and not in a Damien Barrett sense) was when the Suns were in the 8 in 2014 and Ablett busted his shoulder. He hasn’t been quite the same since and neither has that club. They’ve bled players ever since. The initial recruiting wasn’t too bad.

The AFL dug a hole for the Gold Coast with rubbish facilities and apparatchik admin at set up. It was almost as though they considered Gold Coast an easy market and therefore did a complete rush job on them compared to GWS.

Agree on the sliding doors moment - but then, that’s what happens when you build a club around a single individual and that individual goes down.

And yes, everyone (not just the AFL) thought the Gold Coast was the more viable option. More of a history with the game, a lot of Vic ex-pats living up there, better weather etc. That’s one of the reasons we got slightly more concessions. We got the mini-Draft picks because it was perceived that the Sun’s Zone concessions were stronger.

We got longer to reduce our list to AFL standard because everyone thought it would be us who would have the player retention problem - who would want to go live on the Gold Coast? Who would want to live in Western Sydney (as if it was all Mt Druitt and that’s where the players would have to live) - as it turned out, the AFL took away two years of planned list reduction early, hence the salary dump a couple of years ago - because as it turned out, we weren’t actually the bigger basket case.

Go back and read the articles and message board threads of the time - it’s mostly “I can understand bringing in the Gold Coast, they’ll be alright - but no way to Western Sydney, they’ll never keep a player and they’ll be a basket case - why would you put a team in Western Sydney” etc.

“At least the Gold Coast won’t have trouble keeping players - at least there’s a history of the game in the area” etc.

I love that my club has been able to confound the “experts” - let’s hope we do tomorrow too

 

[K_Nine]

There's no need to overanalyze this. The key difference between the two clubs is that the Gold Coast had Scott Clayton as their recruiting manager, and GWS didn't. That, and GWS had more free concessions in the form of the minidraft.

Look over the drafts ranging from 2010-2016, look at the sheer volume of first round selections wasted on potatoes. Forget crap like "developing culture"; that didn't stop West Coast being successful in the mid-2000s. If you don't build a strong list, you don't win flags, and that follows on to your actual good players leaving for a better shot at winning a flag, creating a stagger effect.

Gold Coast will be fine. With Clayton out of the picture, they should have a much better chance at nailing their picks.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Spot on & the management has been settled. I'm critical of how the AFL installed one of the Aulds as CEO on the Gold Coast then pulled him out* leaving a toxic culture, booted Bluey - its settled now, lets hope they give it a decent go.

* promoted him, accountability AFL style


On GWS, whats is Dylan Sheil thinking? How good must Steve Coniglio feel over resigning with the Giants.

They grabbed the player that the Demons got for finishing last in the last untainted draft for half a decade.

In the end it was a terrible move by GWS, but the fact that it was allowed to happen in the first place was disgraceful.

Rich and Melb faced years mired at the bottom while GC/GWS got all the draft picks, then Melb had to cop that too. Wrong.

up until when he got injured I thought Scully played some really good football for gws !

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

That, and GWS had more free concessions in the form of the minidraft.

Ahh yes... the myth of the Mini-Draft.
Let’s have a look at actual facts shall we...

2011 mini-draft pick 1 (traded for pick 4 and a swap of lower picks)
Gold Coast got Jaeger O’Meara (Now at Hawthorn after 44 games and injuries at GC
GWS got Will Hoskin-Elliot (Now at Collingwood for a second round pick after 52 games at GWS)

Call that a wash I suppose - O’Meara is the better player but GC didn’t get the best out of him, WHE was serviceable for us.

2011 mini-draft pick 2 (traded with Luke Brown for pick 10 and a later pick later traded on)
Adelaide got Luke Brown (150 games) and Brad Crouch (83 games)
GWS got Liam Sumner (12 games before being traded to Carlton for a packet of chips and a can of coke)

I’d say Adelaide did better out of the Mini-Draft than us on that one, what do you reckon?

2012 mini-draft pick 1 (traded for pick 2 and a swap of lower picks)
Gold Coast got Jack Martin (97 games - though on his way out apparently)
GWS got Jonathan O’Rourke (is he still at Box Hill? Played 9 games for us)

Gold Coast won that deal comfortably

2012 mini-draft pick 2 (traded with Dominic Barry and pick 20 for picks 3 & 14)
Melbourne got Dominic Barry (5 games), Jesse Hogan (now at Freo after 71 games and 153 goals) - pick 20 was used to help secure Chris Dawes
GWS got Lachie Plowman (now at Carlton after 20 games with us) and Aiden Corr - tomorrow’s GF will be his 83rd game for us (a few injuries not helping)

Not sure who won this one. Jesse Hogan had a pretty good run at Melbourne and we got Aiden Corr who I’m pretty happy with - a wash? A slight Melbourne win?

Whichever way you look at it though - GWS did not get a massively huge advantage out of the mini-Draft despite what a lot of people want to rattle on about 8 years later.

Adelaide was the clear winner out of the mini-draft
Gold Coast and Melbourne did OK
We got Aiden Corr (and Will Hoskin-Elliot for a few years)

But somehow the Mini-Draft has taken on almost mythical proportions when in actual fact, in the development of our club, it wasn’t actually that big.

 

[1970crow]

GWS valued hard asses to guide the kids, ie Brogan and Cornes. Suns went with soft outside types for their experienced players. Plus GAJ as captain, massive balls up there.

 

[Pea Nut]

There's no need to overanalyze this. The key difference between the two clubs is that the Gold Coast had Scott Clayton as their recruiting manager, and GWS didn't. That, and GWS had more free concessions in the form of the minidraft.

Look over the drafts ranging from 2010-2016, look at the sheer volume of first round selections wasted on potatoes. Forget crap like "developing culture"; that didn't stop West Coast being successful in the mid-2000s. If you don't build a strong list, you don't win flags, and that follows on to your actual good players leaving for a better shot at winning a flag, creating a stagger effect.

Gold Coast will be fine. With Clayton out of the picture, they should have a much better chance at nailing their picks.

I was going to post exactly this. They were doomed for failure with that bozo in charge. Look at his picks. I'm sure he was convinced he could change the way the game was played and recruited accordingly. ie. Very badly.

 

[Xtreme]

GWS have been an awesomely run expansion team.

The GCS have been poorly run from day one. If they can get rid of the bad eggs in the administration, board and then rejig the football department. They can get things back on track on the footy ground!