Opinion How much of Alistair Clarkson's success at Hawthorn was actually due to Chris Fagan

[Freomaniac]

Will provide you fagans secret herbs and spices for success at Brisbane… here it is:

Trades (6)
Charlie Cameron; Lachie Neale; Josh Dunkley; Lincoln McCarthy; Callum Ah Chee; Darcy Fort. Wikipedia+1

Free agents (4)
Tom Doedee (restricted FA from Adelaide). Sam Draper, Oscar Allen daniher ( 2024 premiership) Wikipedia

Academy picks (8)
Eric Hipwood; Harris Andrews; Jack Payne; Keidean Coleman; Shadeau Brain; Bruce Reville; Sam Marshall; Ty Gallop. lions.com.au+3Wikipedia+3Wikipedia+3

Father–son (3)
Will Ashcroft; Jaspa Fletcher; Levi Ashcroft.

That is a whopping 20 players either via trade academies/FS or free agencies.

Then throw in the stack of top high ends picks in Rayner (pick 1) mcluggage (pick 2) jarrod berry (17) Zac Bailey (15) Starcevich (18)

That is one kissed on the pecker dream red carpet roll out.

Probably half the leagues coaches right now could have taken this current group to 2 flags

That is nice to hear.... But what about the shape of Brisbane from 2014 to 2018? 5 years in a row of bottom 4 finishes

 

[Spook]

We could start a thread “How much of Fagans success at Brisbane is due to learning from and working with Clarkson”?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

We could start a thread “How much of Fagans success at Brisbane is due to learning from and working with Clarkson”?

The secret herbs and spices is a abundance of academies and father son picks, early draft picks, free agencies and trades.

Not really anything special

 

[Rod Stroker]

The secret herbs and spices is a abundance of academies and father son picks, early draft picks, free agencies and trades.

Not really anything special

so what you're saying is
We could start a thread “How much of Fagans success at Brisbane is due to following the Geelong model”?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

so what you're saying is
We could start a thread “How much of Fagans success at Brisbane is due to following the Geelong model”?

We have zero academy picks, top picks and our only father son of wny significance is from 18 years ago and retired. Our side that made the grand final this year had 11 rookies playing. So actually the opposite

 

[Rod Stroker]

I posted this recently on our board, this was Clarko's very first address to our players when he joined 3 years ago. Look at how confident, concise, articulate he is. No umms and ahhs, not second guessing himself, not pulling himself up in case he offends someone. This is the inspiring coach we hired, who gave us belief that we could get to the promised land. But this ain't the coach we currently have. I blame the club "leaders" for turning him into a castrated pussy cat. The racism saga has also had an impact.

 

[Spook]

The secret herbs and spices is a abundance of academies and father son picks, early draft picks, free agencies and trades.

Not really anything special

“I hope this doesn’t sound like sour grapes”

 

[morsie]

Noone person whether it's a coach or a player wins a flag.The position of coach has evolved to basically man or woman management.This thread is extremely pointless.

 

[Junction Lion]

The secret herbs and spices is a abundance of academies and father son picks, early draft picks, free agencies and trades.

Not really anything special

Not really anything special - LOL. You are are sounding really salty with Fagan and the Lions success. I will leave this one with you. Voted by his peers.

 

[Junction Lion]

We have zero academy picks, top picks and our only father son of wny significance is from 18 years ago and retired. Our side that made the grand final this year had 11 rookies playing. So actually the opposite

Have a whinge. Lions had 6 out and 8 players 22 and under. You are sounding really bitter and twisted. Go and smell the roses. LOL

 

[Dan26]

Everything about this thread proves the Correlation equals Causation fallacy.

 

[Nebular]

I think a better comparison would be to look at the list he took over from Leppa and how he has transformed it.

You mention guys like Andrews and Hipwood. They hardly won a game for their first 100 games because we were so shit and had to do it through hard work. To throw them on some arbitrary list is a bit misleading.

Can you clarify on Leppa? Are you saying Fages took over a poor list and transformed it, or that Leppa did some good list building that Fages continued on with?

 

[Nebular]

Let’s chat the bolded because I showed your current list and it’s for all to see how many are trade in academy/FS or early picks. It’s whopping, don’t really care how many players walked out to get them at the time.

So it’s not misfits Vs the elites??

Our current list is chocked full of rookies, international cat B, and late picks. It’s something that resembles a bottom 4 list more than a grand finalist. Here you go for your own education:

2025 Geelong Grand Final 23​

#	Player	Confirmed Acquisition Method / Notes
1	C. O’Sullivan	National Draft (pick #11 in 2023)
2	S. De Koning	National Draft (pick #19 in 2019)
3	J. Henry	—
	J. Henry	rookie pick
5	M. O’Connor	Category B / zone / international signing
6	Z. Guthrie	Rookie list elevation / original rookie path
7	L. Humphries	pick 70
8	G. Miers	Draft (pick #57 in 2017)
9	M. Holmes	Draft (pick #20 in 2020) Wikipedia
10	O. Dempsey	Rookie list / SSP / rookie pathway
11	B. Close	Rookie list / original rookie pathway
12	S. Mannagh	pick 38
13	T. Stengle	Delisted Free Agent / DFA signing
14	S. Neale	Draft (pick #33, 2020)
15	J. Cameron	Trade (from GWS)
16	P. Dangerfield	Trade from Adelaide in 2015
17	R. Stanley	Trade (from St Kilda)
18	B. Smith	Trade (to Geelong in 2024)
19	T. Atkins	Rookie list / elevation
20	M. Blicavs	cat B rookie
21	J. Martin	Delisted Free Agent / DFA signing
22	O. Mullin	Category B (international)
23	J. Clark	Draft (pick #8 in 2022)

So that is 10 players either via the rookie list or delisted free agency in our 2025 grand final side. That is unheard of.

Being able to develop and coach that geelong side to a grand final week is freakish, Brisbane being able to coach a team full of top ten picks, elite father sons, and chocked full of exclusive academy picks + trades… is just what you expect of a premiership list to look like.

There is no way fagan would have even made the top 8 with our current geelong list let alone a grand final

The cope is strong in this one.

 

[Nebular]

Not going to go over lists again as it’s there for all to see the difference in talent handed to the both of the coaches. One didn’t even have a right to make finals let alone a grand final with that sort of list makeup, where as the other is obviously chocked full of talent the moment the players walked in the door by brisbanes list.
Of cause it’s important, tactically one side had to be coached to near perfection strategically and list management wise to make it, the other just had immense talent.

If you can show me another grand finalist made up of 50% rookies and cat B’s beating a side filled with top end academy early picks and father son talent in a grand final ( or even making it will be a start.. or even making top four) then we can start discussing tactics.

It’s a lot simpler to coach a more talented team to a win against a lesser talented team.

As Nathan Buckley has often put it on SEN, Scott is just the best tactical coach in the game

Chris Scott definitely thinks Chris Scott is the best tactical coach in the game.

 

[Walshawk]

Everything about this thread proves the Correlation equals Causation fallacy.

Hawthorn had a boot studded called Trevor who was at the club in 2013/14/15. We never lost a final when he was there, but lost the next four when he left. He has been at Brisbane the last two years.

How much of both Clarkson’s and Fagan’s success is due to Trevor?

 

[Borussia Teeth]

CBF reading through all of it but clearly Fagan PETER ROHDE was, and still is, the mastermind.

 

[Eternal Schism]

Just keep in mind the Clarkos gameplan was at its most effective in an era with many more interchanges per match than currently allowed. He's never succeeded under that set of rules. His old gameplan used to have the Hawks making 130+ interchanges a match at their best. It's much harder to play his style of ball control, short passing game with players getting more & more raggard. A big part of why the Hawks fell away honestly as the game went past their style at the time.

No surprises that North had issue switch fade outs in the 2nd half in most games. Blamed on lack of experience and youth, but reality could be his gameplans are too taxing for footy nowadays.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Jamara Ugle Fagan
Chris Hagan
Fagle Ugle Hagan
Fagan Hagan
Hagan Fagan

 

[_jrtp09_]

We have all worked in workplaces where reputations don't match contributions and the AFL industry is no different. Some people are in the right place at the right time.

I suspect Clarkson from a coaching perspective deserves the credit but he did have a good team. Likewise as good a coach as Fagan is, he does have a gun team but if course he did help build it.

Hardwick is a coaching legend but without Dusty he probably doesn't win one premiership.

I just think in the AFL there is alot of right place and right time scenarios.

I wouldn’t be so sure. With Petracca now at the Suns and a young list hitting their peak, Hardwick’s system and experience could absolutely deliver another flag. Timing or not, he knows how to build a contender.
PS Purposely left out JUH as he’s an unknown quantity next season, but he could well be another string to their bow.

 

[Caesarr]

Will provide you fagans secret herbs and spices for success at Brisbane… here it is:

Trades (6)
Charlie Cameron; Lachie Neale; Josh Dunkley; Lincoln McCarthy; Callum Ah Chee; Darcy Fort. Wikipedia+1

Free agents (4)
Tom Doedee (restricted FA from Adelaide). Sam Draper, Oscar Allen daniher ( 2024 premiership) Wikipedia

Academy picks (8)
Eric Hipwood; Harris Andrews; Jack Payne; Keidean Coleman; Shadeau Brain; Bruce Reville; Sam Marshall; Ty Gallop. lions.com.au+3Wikipedia+3Wikipedia+3

Father–son (3)
Will Ashcroft; Jaspa Fletcher; Levi Ashcroft.

That is a whopping 20 players either via trade academies/FS or free agencies.

Then throw in the stack of top high ends picks in Rayner (pick 1) mcluggage (pick 2) jarrod berry (17) Zac Bailey (15) Starcevich (18)

That is one kissed on the pecker dream red carpet roll out.

Probably half the leagues coaches right now could have taken this current group to 2 flags

Fages should be praised for turning around the career of McCarthy, Fort, Ah Chee (trades). Same for the work he did with Daniher (who was in a pretty bad spot personally and professionally). Other recruits like Doedee, Draper and Allen have been a non factor to their success.

I do take your point about the academy picks - there is a lot but then again they still managed to win without them this year - Coleman, Payne, Hippy, Brain, Marshall etc

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The Lions shouldn't be criticised for turning around the careers of McCarthy, Fort, Ah Chee (trades). They should be praised for making such moves - not criticised. Same for the work they did with Daniher (who was in a pretty bad spot personally and professionally). Other recruits like Doedee, Draper and Allen have been a non factor to their success.

I do take your point about the academy picks - there is a lot but then again they still managed to win without them this year - Coleman, Payne, Hippy, Brain, Marshall etc

I’m not criticising it, hell… where do geelong sign up??

I’m challenging the premises that fagan achieving what he has with that list handed to him is some extraordinary feat. I don’t think it is. I think probably 6-8 current coaches could have done the exact same with what he has been given to work with. He wasn’t against the odds here. Significant advantages on all recruitment platforms to build the list.

He didn’t revive the careers of McCarthy or fort or achee. McCarthy was highly rated at geelong and the lions swooped in and got him once our medical team had finally gotten his body right. We didn’t want him to leave, fort was our backup ruck and Brisbane poached him also, and he continued to be a backup ruck at Brisbane. Ah chee has always been a good player.

 

[Caesarr]

I’m not criticising it, hell… where do geelong sign up??

I’m challenging the premises that fagan achieving what he has with that list handed to him is some extraordinary feat. I don’t think it is. I think probably 6-8 current coaches could have done the exact same with what he has been given to work with. He wasn’t against the odds here. Significant advantages on all recruitment platforms to build the list.

He didn’t revive the careers of McCarthy or fort or achee. McCarthy was highly rated at geelong and the lions swooped in and got him once our medical team had finally gotten his body right. We didn’t want him to leave, fort was our backup ruck and Brisbane poached him also, and he continued to be a backup ruck at Brisbane. Ah chee has always been a good player.

Taking the Lions from the bottom to 2 flags is not underachieving or merely a pass lol. Premierships don't grow on trees. Care to name the other 6-8 coaches?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Taking the Lions from the bottom to 2 flags is not underachieving or merely a pass lol. Premierships don't grow on trees. Care to name the other 6-8 coaches?

He is obviously a good people manager and mentor, he has created a place people want to work and be apart of and builds good relationships.

So you believe the list he has been given is not one others could coach to a flag? It’s absolutely stacked with talent

 

[Bucking Bronco]

He is obviously a good people manager and mentor, he has created a place people want to work and be apart of and builds good relationships.

So you believe the list he has been given is not one others could coach to a flag? It’s absolutely stacked with talent

Name the coaches man.

Outside of Hardwick, Chris Scott and maybe Sam Mitchell, I don't see anyone who didn't have an equally as talented team as Fagan, who showed an ability to coach at his level.

Collingwood, Fremantle, GWS, Port, Sydney, Western Bulldogs all have a list comparable to Brisbane's and have not been on their level for years

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Name the coaches man.

Outside of Hardwick, Chris Scott and maybe Sam Mitchell, I don't see anyone who didn't have an equally as talented team as Fagan, who showed an ability to coach at his level.

Collingwood, Fremantle, GWS, Port, Sydney, Western Bulldogs all have a list comparable to Brisbane's and have not been on their level for years

None of those lists are the same level of talent as Brisbane, not even close.

what do you think is more impressive? Coaching a b22 of 10 rookies to a grand final, or coaching a team to a premiership that is stacked with high end draft picks, academy and father sons, free agents and trades?

geelongs list has no right to even be a finalist, it is the makeup of a bottom four side.

Bulldogs have a crap defense, collingwood has a mediocre forward half outside of Elliot and an average engine room outside of daicos brothers.

The others you mentioned deft not near it.

Brisbane is elite on ever level. Elite defense, very elite midfield ground of 5-6A graders rotating thru, elite forward half.

They have zero weaknesses