Vic How would you rate Daniel Andrews' performance as Victorian Premier? - Part 7

[adogsfan5]

For all those that hate Dan Andrew’s, imagine for a second the federal government were in charge of Victoria’s CoVid response. It is a petrifying thought

Why not hate both?

 

[adogsfan5]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/moderate-physical-activity-can-protect-against-severe-covid-19-illness-says-study-1.6370619

 

[QuietB]

Why not hate both?

You have to respect people that have a crack even if they screw some things up.

I have zero respect for those who shirk all responsibility.

 

[adogsfan5]

You have to respect people that have a crack even if they screw some things up.

I have zero respect for those who shirk all responsibility.

Agreed big time re zero responsibility from the feds.

Its not Dan’s effort to prevent covid spread that pis*ed me off, it was his compulsive lying after screwing things up, attitude towards other people and choosing rules on the fly that did.

You know what they say, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. It can’t possibly be a coincidence that he’s had this many run-ins with different people.

 

[Kwality]

It stars with and ends with frequency.
Most trains and trams in Melbourne sit somewhere between the 10-30 minute wait mark. Head into the night and it's 30-60 minute wait.
For the most part they're usable. It can be better though.

The buses are the big problem. Most people live near a bus stop than they do a station or tram stop.
The vast majority of buses are 30 plus minute wait and the vast majority stop running after 9PM.
The the routes themselves are a problem. Too many of them take you for a grand tour of a suburb.

Governments look at public transport as a demand led thing when in reality it's a supply lead one. Proving a frequent time competitive public transport servicr means people will use it.

No one wants to use a bus that runs once an hour and takes forever

& public transport is expensive for the taxpayers who subsidise the patrons - a very good use of taxpayers money but those patrons are very lucky, not everyone can tap that benefit.

 

[Kwality]

Seven times. My parents are Dutch. I'd love Melbourne to be an Amsterdam, but it so far from a reality it's not worth contemplating. You simply can't compare an Amsterdam with Melbourne. Firstly, the whole of Amsterdam has a population of less than 1 million. Nearby Rotterdam is the commercial centre of the Netherlands where company headquarters are situated. Amsterdam's streets are narrow and with canals, not really conducive to large volumes of vehicle traffic. That said, most of the centre is still open to cars. The whole of Amsterdam's centre is a fraction of the size of our CBD - 8km² v 37km².

The other factor is the cultural one. Amsterdam and all Dutch cities have "grown up" with bikes. They rule the roads. More than 80% of the populations ride bikes and about 50% ride everywhere because the country is flat and compact. In Melbourne I don't know what the % is but it would be about 10% if that, I estimate.

Melbourne on the other hand has the Hoddle Grid and everything radiates out from the grid. Cut that off and you basically strangle Melbourne.

Such logic wont stop the dreamers, people who claim to love Melbourne complete with a list of changes to make it more like (insert your favourite European city).
Bikes are a luxury that will favour a minority of the populace, more usually deskbound.

 

[swingdog]

Such logic wont stop the dreamers, people who claim to love Melbourne complete with a list of changes to make it more like (insert your favourite European city).
Bikes are a luxury that will favour a minority of the populace, more usually deskbound.

Yeah, don't want people think about how their city could be healthier, cleaner, more vibrant etc.

 

[Pessimistic]

It stars with and ends with frequency.
Most trains and trams in Melbourne sit somewhere between the 10-30 minute wait mark. Head into the night and it's 30-60 minute wait.
For the most part they're usable. It can be better though.

The buses are the big problem. Most people live near a bus stop than they do a station or tram stop.
The vast majority of buses are 30 plus minute wait and the vast majority stop running after 9PM.
The the routes themselves are a problem. Too many of them take you for a grand tour of a suburb.

Governments look at public transport as a demand led thing when in reality it's a supply lead one. Proving a frequent time competitive public transport servicr means people will use it.

No one wants to use a bus that runs once an hour and takes forever

Proponents for blanket public transport want OTHER people to use it, leaving roads clear for themselves.

For the 'last mile' purpose, instead of subsidising buses, why not have MYKI holders each nominate 2-5 journeys (travel to and from work, education or family members) then subsidise a rideshare (UBER) to connect from-to the train/tram when the actual train/tram journey is included - verified by MYKI
If there's enough regular demand, rideshare companies will soon be providing appropriate vehicles for the demand (mini bus etc)

 

[Pessimistic]

Such logic wont stop the dreamers, people who claim to love Melbourne complete with a list of changes to make it more like (insert your favourite European city).
Bikes are a luxury that will favour a minority of the populace, more usually deskbound.

when there, those places aren't quite as good as some would believe

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Proponents for blanket public transport want OTHER people to use it, leaving roads clear for themselves.

For the 'last mile' purpose, instead of subsidising buses, why not have MYKI holders each nominate 2-5 journeys (travel to and from work, education or family members) then subsidise a rideshare (UBER) to connect from-to the train/tram when the actual train/tram journey is included - verified by MYKI
If there's enough regular demand, rideshare companies will soon be providing appropriate vehicles for the demand (mini bus etc)

What your suggesting already exists.

FlexiRide - Public Transport Victoria

Telebuses are demand-responsive services that passengers can board and disembark at fixed stops or at home.

www.ptv.vic.gov.au

 

[aussiefooty]

He's going way better than the PM.

 

[Gralin]

Such logic wont stop the dreamers, people who claim to love Melbourne complete with a list of changes to make it more like (insert your favourite European city).
Bikes are a luxury that will favour a minority of the populace, more usually deskbound.

Do you also think pepper is a bit spicy?

 

[nut]

so you want to outlaw hybrid working?

Dans fault

 

[nut]

He does control his Public Service.

So you want him to be a Dictator or not?

 

[Saint]

Such logic wont stop the dreamers, people who claim to love Melbourne complete with a list of changes to make it more like (insert your favourite European city).
Bikes are a luxury that will favour a minority of the populace, more usually deskbound.

There's a huge land use planning element which restricts the ability of most Australian cities from providing efficient PT. It's the size of houses/land. We have low population densities in most areas. That makes it harder to service with PT.

The collective fundamentals of cost per km travelled and catchment per km travelled are just bad for low-density areas.

The individual cost evaluation for low densities also means a car is necessary (2 for families) in most cases and PT just doesn't stack up against cars in those areas for time/cost.

I like to call the dreamers the Northcote Transport Planners. They make grandiose statements about bike lanes and PT which might be relevant in Northcote, but if they spent a week living in Tarneit or Cranbourne, they'd keep their traps shut in future.

 

[The Punter]

I'd like to see many people spend a week in Tarneit or Cranbourne. Lack of understanding of other people's lived experience is a real problem at the moment.

 

[swingdog]

There's a huge land use planning element which restricts the ability of most Australian cities from providing efficient PT. It's the size of houses/land. We have low population densities in most areas. That makes it harder to service with PT.

The collective fundamentals of cost per km travelled and catchment per km travelled are just bad for low-density areas.

The individual cost evaluation for low densities also means a car is necessary (2 for families) in most cases and PT just doesn't stack up against cars in those areas for time/cost.

I like to call the dreamers the Northcote Transport Planners. They make grandiose statements about bike lanes and PT which might be relevant in Northcote, but if they spent a week living in Tarneit or Cranbourne, they'd keep their traps shut in future.

So, does that mean they can't have bike lanes in Northcote because there are people in Tarneit and Cranbourne? It's not binary.

Most transport planners expect there to be a multi-modal city with the car playing a role out in low density suburbs. Public transport is a back-up there for people who can't / don't drive or don't have a car.

In and close to the CBD, non-car modes play a much bigger role. They could play a bigger role. That's not such a radical concept.

 

[Saint]

So, does that mean they can't have bike lanes in Northcote because there are people in Tarneit and Cranbourne? It's not binary.

Most transport planners expect there to be a multi-modal city with the car playing a role out in low density suburbs. Public transport is a back-up there for people who can't / don't drive or don't have a car.

In and close to the CBD, non-car modes play a much bigger role. They could play a bigger role. That's not such a radical concept.

They absolutely can in those inner-city areas. But when people in Northcote complain that Tarneit is adding carparks to the rail station, that people should walk or cycle or buses should be provided, those people need to go and live in Tarneit for a week, then shut their pie-holes.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

They absolutely can in those inner-city areas. But when people in Northcote complain that Tarneit is adding carparks to the rail station, that people should walk or cycle or buses should be provided, those people need to go and live in Tarneit for a week, then shut their pie-holes.

Where has there been opposition to Tarneit carpark? The only opposition I'm aware of is the ones in the eastern liberal electorates, and because they were either 1) not needed, 2) too far away, or 3) not worth the cost

 

[Saint]

Where has there been opposition to Tarneit carpark? The only opposition I'm aware of is the ones in the eastern liberal electorates, and because they were either 1) not needed, 2) too far away, or 3) not worth the cost

Probably because I follow a lot of PT people on Twitter, my echo chamber is full of PT types complaining about rail carparks. Those inner-city ones are nonsense, but as density decreases, parking at stations needs to go up, as feeder services are unsustainable and unused.

Here's evidence of the opposition:

Myth: Park-and-Ride will encourage public transport use – Public Transport Users Association

The PTUA's position is basically that all railways station car parks are bad.

They even quote a Councillor in Cranbourne as being "misguided".

They've just lumped all the data together as a one-size-fits all solution. The idea that mode share in Sth Yarra should influence planning in Cranbourne is clearly nonsense, but the PTUA are promoting it.

 

[swingdog]

Probably because I follow a lot of PT people on Twitter, my echo chamber is full of PT types complaining about rail carparks. Those inner-city ones are nonsense, but as density decreases, parking at stations needs to go up, as feeder services are unsustainable and unused.

Here's evidence of the opposition:

Myth: Park-and-Ride will encourage public transport use – Public Transport Users Association

The PTUA's position is basically that all railways station car parks are bad.

They even quote a Councillor in Cranbourne as being "misguided".

They've just lumped all the data together as a one-size-fits all solution. The idea that mode share in Sth Yarra should influence planning in Cranbourne is clearly nonsense, but the PTUA are promoting it.

Of course, you could have both. You could have adequate car parking and good walking and cycling facilities to reach a train station in Tarneit.

Otherwise the question is why can’t people in Tarneit have as good walking and cycling facilities as those in Northcote?

 

[Saint]

Of course, you could have both. You could have adequate car parking and good walking and cycling facilities to reach a train station in Tarneit.

Otherwise the question is why can’t people in Tarneit have as good walking and cycling facilities as those in Northcote?

They do, the PTUA just doesn't want them to have car parks in Tarneit or Cranbourne because people in Northcote don't need/want to drive to their train station.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

They do, the PTUA just doesn't want them to have car parks in Tarneit or Cranbourne because people in Northcote don't need/want to drive to their train station.

Not quite

If you read your own link the argument is for more buses and trams to feed people to stations.

Tarneit is ****ed for buses from my understanding

 

[Gralin]

They absolutely can in those inner-city areas. But when people in Northcote complain that Tarneit is adding carparks to the rail station, that people should walk or cycle or buses should be provided, those people need to go and live in Tarneit for a week, then shut their pie-holes.

or maybe there needs to be a push for PT to be improved because car parks allow very limited access to trains compared to well run feeder services

like yes car parks have benefits but we keep making the same planning mistakes with new estates and infra that we were making 50+ years ago

 

[Saint]

or maybe there needs to be a push for PT to be improved because car parks allow very limited access to trains compared to well run feeder services

like yes car parks have benefits but we keep making the same planning mistakes with new estates and infra that we were making 50+ years ago

Or maybe in places like Tarneit and Cranbourne, it's just far more efficient to provide car parks at $25k per space for the next 10-15 years than to provide bus services ($1m per bus per year) which will carry only a fraction of all the people who want to use PT, will take longer and be less comfortable (weather etc?). Without car parks they might just drive to their end destination instead.