Ins and Outs vs. Carlton

[Pie eyed]

As a lot of people have suggested after Carlscums win against da Puddies, I think we need to drop one tall & bring in a small.

OUT: N Brown

Played a fair game but I think if one tall is to be dropped to combat the dung beetle fleet, errrr I mean, mosquito fleet, then I think he misses out. Reid offers more as a rebounding defender than Brown who is pretty much a negating defender at this stage.

IN: Barham

His speed & tenacity at the man could be invaluable in that crumbing fwd line.


Even if they bring Waite in, I think Reid with Maxy's help will keep him from being a match winner.

Waite is just as likely to play back against us I think, if we play Dawes, Cloke and Fraser.

 

[zeeCFC]

Bower in for Walker is almost certain. hard too see who would make way for Waite IF he comes in

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Waite is just as likely to play back against us I think, if we play Dawes, Cloke and Fraser.

Ok, but we still need another small defender.

These are the vagaries of our game, which makes it great.

BUT anyway you look at it, I think we need another smallish defender.

 

[notorious_zhang]

Ok, but we still need another small defender.

These are the vagaries of our game, which makes it great.

BUT anyway you look at it, I think we need another smallish defender.

We have Toovey and O'brien who will play on 2 out of the three smalls. Then we can use either Shaw or Johnson, also Wellingham could probably mind one of them too.

 

[Octavia]

def cant drop dawes, he was very lively up forward

bring in jaxson for caff

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

In: Goldsack

Out: David or Macaffer

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

BUT anyway you look at it, I think we need another smallish defender.

Out of Toovey O'Brien Shaw Maxwell Thomas Wellingham and Johnson, I'm pretty sure we can scrounge up three small defenders with a couple of spares.

 

[MarkT2]

Where are all the fraser bashers this week?

Even nick maxwell was moved to say that when josh was gesturing at the crowd, itwasnt just at essendon fans.

Christ! He kicked 3 goals. Once in a row.

If he was making a point to Collingwood fans he's a sook. The knockers will be silenced when he strings a season together. Good players actually string seasons together.

We've finally gone with some talented young mids instead of O'Bree and Lockyer. We finally dropped L. Brown for Dawes. These are the selections that maximise our premiership chances. I hope Wood comes good because that's another step but in reality Jolly has made that less of a neccessity.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Christ! He kicked 3 goals. Once in a row.

If he was making a point to Collingwood fans he's a sook. The knockers will be silenced when he strings a season together. Good players actually string seasons together.

Fraser has had an excellent career despite being played out of position (first ruck instead of second ruck) and as a consequence being forced to manage a dodgy knee for 3-4 years.

The Fraser knockers wanted BOTH Josh and Leigh Brown dropped last week and for Jolly to go solo. I stated firmly (and correctly) that the one ruck policy of 2009 had failed, and that Josh should be given a little more time to find form in new role- which he has always managed to do in the past - and especially so with Wood's preparation set back by a hand injury.

The beauty of having Fraser and Jolly in the side is they are both goalkickers. They have kicked five in the past two weeks. You cant get that result when you are running one solo ruckman.

Whatever Fraser's gesture was and who it was aimed at, It was great to see some emotion from a guy who has suffered for years of accusations of being too laconic.

 

[TradeDraft]

In: Blight

Out: McCaffer

 

[mdc]

Fraser has had an excellent career despite being played out of position (first ruck instead of second ruck)

The idea that being second ruck would have prevented all his injuries is almost as laughable as the idea that "second ruck" is something other than the second-best ruck.

Yes, he was probably played too early in the ruck. However, given he's still at below average body-strength for a ruckman, it would have always been too early.

 

[ESKIE]

Fraser has had an excellent career despite being played out of position (first ruck instead of second ruck) and as a consequence being forced to manage a dodgy knee for 3-4 years.

The Fraser knockers wanted BOTH Josh and Leigh Brown dropped last week and for Jolly to go solo. I stated firmly (and correctly) that the one ruck policy of 2009 had failed, and that Josh should be given a little more time to find form in new role- which he has always managed to do in the past - and especially so with Wood's preparation set back by a hand injury.

The beauty of having Fraser and Jolly in the side is they are both goalkickers. They have kicked five in the past two weeks. You cant get that result when you are running one solo ruckman.

Whatever Fraser's gesture was and who it was aimed at, It was great to see some emotion from a guy who has suffered for years of accusations of being too laconic.

Agree not sure why he gets so criticised, he's had some injury probs, but he;s pretty smart, works hard and unfairly maligned, so as a footy fan I reckon he;s been quite good for the pies ... just not too good on Sunday thanks Josh

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The idea that being second ruck would have prevented all his injuries is almost as laughable as the idea that "second ruck" is something other than the second-best ruck..

Not really. Much of his time as "first ruck" has been as a lone hand against bigger bodies, both outsized and outnumbered. Theres no doubt that if he had a "Jolly" at the club much earlier, then Frasers career woudl have evolved differently, and he'd be now be playing more of an Adam Goodes type role as a mobile tall. People forget that Goodes was once a ruckman and that he was "retired" from that position because he didnt have the physical size to compete.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes, he was probably played too early in the ruck. However, given he's still at below average body-strength for a ruckman, it would have always been too early.

He has the ideal physique for a mobile forward/ruck/ruck-rover. All he needs is an old fashioned dinosaur to carry the heavy load.

In modern footy you cant carry two dinosaurs. One of your ruckmen at least needs to have ground level and around the ground and goalkicking ability.

 

[mdc]

Not really. Much of his time as "first ruck" has been as a lone hand against bigger bodies, both outsized and outnumbered. Theres no doubt that if he had a "Jolly" at the club much earlier, then Frasers career woudl have evolved differently, and he'd be now be playing more of an Adam Goodes type role as a mobile tall. People forget that Goodes was once a ruckman and that he was "retired" from that position because he didnt have the physical size to compete.

I'm sorry, when people invoke the Goodes comparison w.r.t Fraser, I can't really take it seriously. Goodes is essentially a 6"4 midfielder who happened to be tough enough to carry Sydney's ruck division for a while.

Fraser is a 6"7+ ruckman, whose frail physique puts him at constant risk of injuries. He has none of the pace, agility or strength through the hips required to play any of the roles Adam Goodes plays so well - which is fair enough, given he's over 3 inches taller.

He has the ideal physique for a mobile forward/ruck/ruck-rover. All he needs is an old fashioned dinosaur to carry the heavy load.

In modern footy you cant carry two dinosaurs. One of your ruckmen at least needs to have ground level and around the ground and goalkicking ability.

His physique is ideal for squat. I can't say for sure whether it's his work ethic in the gym or his genetics or a combination of both that is to blame. But there have been plenty of rucks to have come in just as skinny who have developed size at 5x the rate (look at Warnock as a recent example).

I agree with you in the sense that Fraser should certainly have been eased in early on, whether through the seconds or as a part-time ruck/part-time forward. But that he has never sufficiently developed to play first ruck full time is an undoubted disappointment, and putting it all down to injuries is a complete cop-out.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Obviously we disagree and thats fine.

The good news is that we can now actually have this debate. Now that we have three quality ruck options, two of them proven goalkickers, all three of them will be under pressure to perform every week. If Wood pushes Fraser out during the season, so be it.

We've never had that choice before. As long as we go into every game with two fit ruckmen and dont resort to the Leigh-Brown-pinch-hitting-in-the-ruck option, I'll be a happy man.

 

[buzzbuzz]

The idea that being second ruck would have prevented all his injuries is almost as laughable as the idea that "second ruck" is something other than the second-best ruck.

Yes. This. Excellent point, exactly what I thought when I read that previous post. Quoted for being so very true. If two ruckmen are of equal size, skill and quality then there would be no first or second; we'd have the luxury of playing them equal amounts. Fraser is not simply a 'different' ruckman, he is a lesser one.

 

[danielnajdek]

hope o'bree or leigh brown don't come back in. wouldn't mind lockyer in for macaffer but if it didn't happen i wouldn't be too fussed either.make those three guys earn back their spot.

 

[MarkT2]

Fraser has had an excellent career despite being played out of position (first ruck instead of second ruck) and as a consequence being forced to manage a dodgy knee for 3-4 years.

The Fraser knockers wanted BOTH Josh and Leigh Brown dropped last week and for Jolly to go solo. I stated firmly (and correctly) that the one ruck policy of 2009 had failed, and that Josh should be given a little more time to find form in new role- which he has always managed to do in the past - and especially so with Wood's preparation set back by a hand injury.

The beauty of having Fraser and Jolly in the side is they are both goalkickers. They have kicked five in the past two weeks. You cant get that result when you are running one solo ruckman.

Whatever Fraser's gesture was and who it was aimed at, It was great to see some emotion from a guy who has suffered for years of accusations of being too laconic.

I dispute that anyone whose best position is second ruck can have an excellent career. Excellent players aren’t second rucks. Anthony Rocca played for a while as a second ruck but was an excellent forward who was a quality ruckman (the best on our list in fact). Goodes is a quality ruck, a quality midfielder and a quality forward.

Fraser has not had an excellent career. I ask again, how many excellent games has he played over the course of a decade? I have heard all sorts of justifications from played in the ruck too early to the burden of pick 1. While I always thought he shouldn’t have been rucked so early the reality is it has always been his ability that has held him back and had he not been taken so early he’d have been offloaded a long time ago and replaced.

I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry when at the 2005 AGM Eddie, after he and MM said 4 or 5 times they don’t use injury as an excuse but….said he lost money on his Brownlow bet when Fraser limped into training in the pre season. That summed up why we were where we were after getting close in 2002.

I agree the 1 ruck policy failed. At the moment I am happy enough for Josh to play second ruck. I’d prefer Wood to get fit, find form and come in to replace Fraser. I’d prefer Anthony to be at his best, Dawes to hold down CHF and Cloke to be the second ruck/forward option. At the moment Fraser is the best option.

 

[Pie eyed]

I dispute that anyone whose best position is second ruck can have an excellent career. Excellent players aren’t second rucks. Anthony Rocca played for a while as a second ruck but was an excellent forward who was a quality ruckman (the best on our list in fact). Goodes is a quality ruck, a quality midfielder and a quality forward.

Fraser has not had an excellent career. I ask again, how many excellent games has he played over the course of a decade? I have heard all sorts of justifications from played in the ruck too early to the burden of pick 1. While I always thought he shouldn’t have been rucked so early the reality is it has always been his ability that has held him back and had he not been taken so early he’d have been offloaded a long time ago and replaced.

I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry when at the 2005 AGM Eddie, after he and MM said 4 or 5 times they don’t use injury as an excuse but….said he lost money on his Brownlow bet when Fraser limped into training in the pre season. That summed up why we were where we were after getting close in 2002.

I agree the 1 ruck policy failed. At the moment I am happy enough for Josh to play second ruck. I’d prefer Wood to get fit, find form and come in to replace Fraser. I’d prefer Anthony to be at his best, Dawes to hold down CHF and Cloke to be the second ruck/forward option. At the moment Fraser is the best option.

YOu are right, the one ruck policy failed.
Fraser was the direct victim of that policy.
He has a year to address his new found freedom.
In my opinion Fraser was very good in his capacity as a lone ruck. We tried to address the situation numerous times by draft and trade and obviously had little luck until Wood and now Jolly.
I won't be blaming Fraser for the the lack of available ruckmen to take some of the load. He has done the best he can in trying circumstance.

 

[Lockyer24]

In: Goldsack
Out: Macaffer

 

[Avni]

Just thought i'd add, the players we're missing from the team that beat Carlton last year are the following:

Wood
Barham
Anthony
L Brown
Lockyer
Presti
Obree

And we've added the following players into the team

Jolly
Ball
Macaffer
Fraser
Wellingham
Reid
N brown

The team we lost to Carlton with in round 8, 10 players from our best 22 of tomorrow weren't playing.

 

[Swanny36]

In: Goldsack
Out: Macaffer

Nup, Sack played in the VFL Tonight, BUT BUCKLEY DIDN'T which is why I think he will play.