Roast Irritating things.

[Spluff]

Plus Ling is a beautiful kick which is more than you can say for Tuck unfortunately.

Ling has always been a below average kick. It's why he failed as a genuine mid.

 

[rammbo]

There's a thing called mental scarring. [/QUOTE]

This gives me a great insight to why you make such ridiculous comments mental scarring occurs when you r mentally weak in the first place, you may hav copped it in your carreer and never got over it but not many afl players would really hav this problem, from my experience wen i was well beaten it drove and motivated me to get better and it did guess we r poles away individually on this.

 

[santa claws]

Someone forgot to tell the Eagles in `02 - 8th `03 - 7th and `04 - 7th then they won the `06 Flag.

Or the Pies in `08 when they came 8th only to win the `10 flag.

And dont forget Carlton in `09 - 7th and `10 - 8th, and they are the only threat to Collingwood and Geelong this year.

Yep Santa, finishing 7th or 8th is very mediocre. We mose well put the que in the rack now and try for better draft picks next year. Wadda yu reckon?

oh dear do i really need to explain to you the difference between making the 8 with a genuine finals side that maybe needs just a tweak, and making the 8 with an ordinary side that is nowhere near it.
no i give you more credit than that and wont waste my time.

all i will say is apart from a handful of sides who have finished 7th or 8th those sides got knocked out in the first week of finals and only one who has finished 5th thru 8th has gone onto play in a preliminary final. yes ordinary sides make up 7th and 8th. very few sides one who finish 5th thru 8 make the last 2 weeks of finals.

what you are talking about is clubs who have finished 7th 8th who have built their lists enough to continue to make finals and improve. we havent done that and if we were to make the 8 i have no doubt we wouild likely be the essendon of 09.


i will also say some sides dont even make the 8 but you can clearly see them making finals the next yr because the list has in the main been built and most of the groundwork has been done.

anyway im past getting into spurious arguments with posters if you think we are a genuine top 8 side good for you you are entitled to your opinion. if you cant differentiate between a genuine team on the rise who has done the bulk of its building and a team that is clearly still fairly early into its rebuild well thats not my problem either.

 

[Bazzar]

anyway im past getting into spurious arguments with posters if you think we are a genuine top 8 side good for you you are entitled to your opinion. if you cant differentiate between a genuine team on the rise who has done the bulk of its building and a team that is clearly still fairly early into its rebuild well thats not my problem either.

Put your money where you mouth is and show me where i said we are a genuine top 8 side. At no time have i ever said that. I said their is a gap between the 1-3 > 4-6 >> 7-12 >>> the rest. Their is no stand out team vying for the 7th and 8th spot and we are still a chance to sneak in. If we do it will be brilliant, if we dont its not the end of the world as that will be the likely outcome.

Oh and by the way santa, in todays HUN Dimma was going on about "stats" specifically our 32 clangers and how its normally our total for 2 games, and our 12 turnovers in the defensive 50 cost us 6 goals and how they are our main priorities at the moment to rectify.

So santa, my question to you is… Stats shmats.

You always keep reminding everyone that those who talk stats are talking rubbish, so is Dimma talking crap?

 

[axel2cotch2lids]

• Anyone calling for Miller to be dropped from the squad has no idea on the importance of structure and support. The reason Vickery and Jack are having solid a solid season is because we finally have a third tall. You want to see what he offers, watch his work rate in the third quarter of the Lions game. Yes he needs to slot a few more, but, unlike the last ten years, at least we have a guy who can get his hands on it and bring others into the play.
• I am yet to see any player step up from the reserves and have a consistent impact or contribution. Blokes like Gourdis, Morton, Tuck, shouldn't get games for the sake of bringing them in.
• People calling for McGuane to be replaced by Goo need to look at what our defence has leaked per game for the last 8 weeks, how many games have that defensive unit leaked over 100 points in this time? McGuane and Rance are doing a far better job than people realise.
• We don't want to make the finals this year. I want to see finals action so, so bad, but i promise you, if we make it, we will be obliterated. We are not ready. It could have the opposite effect, and set us back a year. It's about prolonged success, i'd rather wait till next year if it meant possibly 6-8 years of consistent finals action.
• Bachar Houli is possibly pick up of the year.
• Griggs is not a ****ing ruckman.
• Hislop will play his final game in the seniors either this week or next.

Feel free to discuss.

A load of Codswallop!

[1] Its not Miller thats important to the structure. But a third tall is important to the structure - correct. It can be Post or Griffiths be encourgaed in doing the same thing and developing. Miller is sending us backwards as group. The structure of two talls plus Jack is what we need - Miller was supposed to be last in queue in case all else fails in developong young players - that was the plan.

[2] Gourdis and Tuck havent stepped up in the reserves? Garbage plain and simple.

[3] McGuane - The last 12 weeks! Our defence hasnt been that bad - but it needs to improve, and their is no improvement left in Luke McGuane. So I think its worth taking 1 small step back, to try and move forwards. If all the talk of Jackson Trengove is true then mcGuane wont be in the starting 22 in 2012 anyway as he will be behind Moore, Rance, Trengove and Grimes.

Gourdis is quicker and bigger, and and equal set of skills. If we put the same amount of time and effort we have into Gourdis as we have McGuane we will get a much better player - The Luke McGuane we have today is the result of 7 years of development and experience -less than impressive - he is a completely unwhelming and makes constant decision making errors. I believe that it is time to find out if players like Gourdis are capable at AFL level IMHO.

[4] I cant see why we would be olilterated by anyone in the bottom half of the eight - beaten perhaps but not obiliterated. We arent trying to sneak into the top 4. We might even sneak a week 1 finals win - what a horror story that would be.

But i dont believe we can make finals at the moment which such a weak ruck division.

making finals may accelerate overall development by exposing our weaknesses more clearly.

[5] Bachar Houli has been an excellent pickup

[6] Its Grigg, not Griggs, no more Griggs on this board please - and no he is not a ruckman but seems to fall in and out of confidence even within games but has been worth his spot in the 22 each week and is another good pickup.

[7] I thought Hislop was 'no good' until i saw him play in a win against collingwood in the VFL a few weeks ago where he really surprised me and is worth having a look at for a bit in the AFL. His skills may come back to haunt him but at them moment they are holding up and i'd like to see how they go once he picks up the tempo of AFL again in 3-4 weeks.

 

[TigerBlood87]

Ling has always been a below average kick. It's why he failed as a genuine mid.

Tell me you're kidding. He's always been a good field kick and a very good kick for goal. He's failed as a 'genuine' mid as you put it through lack of pace and overall athletic ability. He makes up for it with hardness around the football, is a good overhead mark and has played the majority of his career with a class midfield and as such plays a mitigating role rather than a ball winning one.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Tell me you're kidding. He's always been a good field kick and a very good kick for goal. He's failed as a 'genuine' mid as you put it through lack of pace and overall athletic ability. He makes up for it with hardness around the football, is a good overhead mark and has played the majority of his career with a class midfield and as such plays a mitigating role rather than a ball winning one.

Lings a plodder at best...too slow to be an accountable tagger...

Given a foot race between our brown and graham....lingy would battle to look elite...

Given space and time his kicking is reasonable...

When under pressure he sprays his kicks just like the best of them...

He lives in the centre of the ground for geelong just wrestling for the ball at ball ups...

Suprised he got another year at geelong...guess its because they are such a good side and can carry lingy along...

Oh yeah and he is courageous...putting his body on the line...

Tucky would eat him...

 

[Bazzar]

Lings a plodder at best...too slow to be an accountable tagger...

Given a foot race between our brown and graham....lingy would battle to look elite...

I know this is way off topic and not a real indication, but when he was in the greatest athlete comp (mickey mouse i know) but he was very embarrassing with his all round athletic ability and skills compared to the others, and especially compared to Hodge and Lids who were in the previous shows.

 

[Rayzorwire]

The undermanned Hawks smacked the Dons by 60+ and yet you still think we're a chance against them in a final, when the Hawks would still have a number of premiership players running around and we'd have a team full of finals debutants.

Perhaps we'd be better off fronting up against Carlton, given the way they struggled to overcome the Swans a team we were 'competitive' with the week before I'm sure we'd give them a real shake.

There isn't a side in the comp which doesn't have down weeks. Essendon are playing horrible football, did you watch the game? They're a bottom-4 side on current form, partly due to losing a fair chunk of their midfield drive and run to injury, partly because of other key players in poor form. Every side in the league is vulnerable to the same thing happening to them.

IMO the only 2 players from our best 22 that have regularly missed games this year are Tuck & Moore. I really don't see how those 2 coming in are going to make us a 5 goal better team so that we can compete with the better sides in the 8.

Every game this year we've leaked 20+ way too easy clearances, the last month has been appalling, if just Tuck comes in, radically alters that number and sends some of that ball into our forward-50 then that more than makes up 5 goals, let alone the drawn game and other narrow losses we've had which we shouldn't have had.

Unlikely to happen given they will be getting most of their better players back over the next few weeks.

Hill was a key part of their early sparkling form, he's dropped right off, Fyfe is a gun, but will he last the season? Sandilands is in trouble, they're light on for quality talls, and some very young players are currently punching above their weight. They're very beatable, now or come finals time.

I can see the value in those off field areas, just don't see the value in having the side get pumped on the big stage of the finals.

To learn how to win and what it takes.

There is a major difference between 30 touches by Tuck and 30 touches by Foley Cotchin & Martin and that is the quality of those possessions.

We've been over and over the stats on this RT, Tuck doesn't turn the ball over or make errors - critical or otherwise - more often than those players and he's equally effective in his uncoordinated, Tucky way. It makes him a Boyd type accumulator and centre square hard man, nobody's going to argue he's as good a ball user as Cooney, but he's there 22 games a year, every time he gets the ball it means the opposition don't have it, he adds hardness and bite at the stoppages, and the side is well drilled in maximising his strengths and minimising his weaknesses, ditto Cross. I reckon Tucky would nearly do Boyd in a foot race, when was the last time you saw Boyd avoid an opponent with pace rather than just dish to a teammate, or run down an opponent from behind? Does Tuck really have worse disposal? I rate them very much on par with one another in that area and they're statistically identical over their careers.

There is little place in todays game for Tucks types of disposals where its more often than not just a blind hack out of the pack. Very rarely do you see players just blindly banging the ball on the boot given the way sides set up their presses and zones.

Rubbish mate, it happens a dozen times a game at least, every game, sometimes it can happen 50+.

Its all about smart quick ball use in tight and the spreading from the pack quickly to get out into the open and hurt sides through run and carry. Tucks major weakness just doesn't allow him to be part of that sort of set up.

Yeah, that's what is often asserted by people with short memories.

It's quite a thread-worthy topic.

 

[captain blood 17]

There's a thing called mental scarring.

This gives me a great insight to why you make such ridiculous comments mental scarring occurs when you r mentally weak in the first place, you may hav copped it in your carreer and never got over it but not many afl players would really hav this problem, from my experience wen i was well beaten it drove and motivated me to get better and it did guess we r poles away individually on this.[/quote]

Ok dickbrain, enough of the insults, go to the superrules website for the gippy tigers. I just played my first game back in two years. See if you can spot which player i am in the write up (though they did get my previous team wrong - typo), some of us have played at a fair level, and would have played higher bar a shit attitude by admission and a couple of poorly timed injuries.
Never presume anything about a person you don't know. Have your opinion, but don't make it personal. We all want the same thing here, it's just a question of how we get there.

 

[_RT_]

There isn't a side in the comp which doesn't have down weeks. Essendon are playing horrible football, did you watch the game? They're a bottom-4 side on current form, partly due to losing a fair chunk of their midfield drive and run to injury, partly because of other key players in poor form. Every side in the league is vulnerable to the same thing happening to them.

Every game this year we've leaked 20+ way too easy clearances, the last month has been appalling, if just Tuck comes in, radically alters that number and sends some of that ball into our forward-50 then that more than makes up 5 goals, let alone the drawn game and other narrow losses we've had which we shouldn't have had.

Hill was a key part of their early sparkling form, he's dropped right off, Fyfe is a gun, but will he last the season? Sandilands is in trouble, they're light on for quality talls, and some very young players are currently punching above their weight. They're very beatable, now or come finals time.

To learn how to win and what it takes.

We've been over and over the stats on this RT, Tuck doesn't turn the ball over or make errors - critical or otherwise - more often than those players and he's equally effective in his uncoordinated, Tucky way. It makes him a Boyd type accumulator and centre square hard man, nobody's going to argue he's as good a ball user as Cooney, but he's there 22 games a year, every time he gets the ball it means the opposition don't have it, he adds hardness and bite at the stoppages, and the side is well drilled in maximising his strengths and minimising his weaknesses, ditto Cross. I reckon Tucky would nearly do Boyd in a foot race, when was the last time you saw Boyd avoid an opponent with pace rather than just dish to a teammate, or run down an opponent from behind? Does Tuck really have worse disposal? I rate them very much on par with one another in that area and they're statistically identical over their careers.

Rubbish mate, it happens a dozen times a game at least, every game, sometimes it can happen 50+.

Yeah, that's what is often asserted by people with short memories.

It's quite a thread-worthy topic.

Tell you what Ray, you can believe that we're worthy of making finals now if you like, but on what I witnessed yesterday, against the Swans a couple of weeks back and the earlier games against the Dogs Hawks & Pies there is no way on Earth we're a finals side this year. If we were to make it, odds are, we would get smacked. The only way we wouldn't is if as you said we were able to play our best 22 against an opponent who has been ravaged by injury and even then I don't think we would be that much better off. So with that I'm ending my involvement in this discussion as I don't see any point continuing on with the debate about finals seeing as we're effectively no chance of making the finals this year after yesterdays loss.

 

[captain blood 17]

Tell you what Ray, you can believe that we're worthy of making finals now if you like, but on what I witnessed yesterday, against the Swans a couple of weeks back and the earlier games against the Dogs Hawks & Pies there is no way on Earth we're a finals side this year. If we were to make it, odds are, we would get smacked. The only way we wouldn't is if as you said we were able to play our best 22 against an opponent who has been ravaged by injury and even then I don't think we would be that much better off. So with that I'm ending my involvement in this discussion as I don't see any point continuing on with the debate about finals seeing as we're effectively no chance of making the finals this year after yesterdays loss.

RT, we are still a chance with the draw helping us (Freo and the Bombers have a tough run home). Positions 7 and 8 are gonna be up for grabs till the end of the season. But, geez, didn't yesterday show us something. On the positive, we couldn't have played any worse, and the final margin wasn't a deesgrace!! I think injuries are gonna hurt us. Some sore boys out there yesterday.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Very rarely do you see players just blindly banging the ball on the boot given the way sides set up their presses and zones.

Lings a master at it when he's under pressure.....

 

[rammbo]

Ok dickbrain, enough of the insults, go to the superrules website for the gippy tigers. I just played my first game back in two years. See if you can spot which player i am in the write up (though they did get my previous team wrong - typo), some of us have played at a fair level, and would have played higher bar a shit attitude by admission and a couple of poorly timed injuries.
Never presume anything about a person you don't know. Have your opinion, but don't make it personal. We all want the same thing here, it's just a question of how we get there.

Yes got the message and sorry for the backhanded insult but i still do believe that mental scarring on any sporting arena is a sign of mental weakness ,think of wat an afl player has to go through to make it ,the mentally weak hav very little chance of staying on a on a list let alone playing taylor is an example i think.The dickbrain thing made me laugh .

 

[_RT_]

RT, we are still a chance with the draw helping us (Freo and the Bombers have a tough run home). Positions 7 and 8 are gonna be up for grabs till the end of the season. But, geez, didn't yesterday show us something. On the positive, we couldn't have played any worse, and the final margin wasn't a deesgrace!! I think injuries are gonna hurt us. Some sore boys out there yesterday.

Sorry just don't see it happening. We're currently 2 games behind Freo & Sydney and that should be 3 by next week if results go as expected.

That leaves 8th spot, we're a game and heaps of % behind the Dees who could possibly make it 2 games and % by next week against the Dogs. By tonight the Roos should be ahead of us as well and they 2 could be 2 games ahead of us next week.

That would leave us 2-3 games and % behind the other teams in contention for 7th & 8th with 9 games to go. I don't see us winning against Carlton Geelong or West Coast, we're 50-50 against Sydney Melbourne Adelaide(away) & Roos. The only games I have us favoured to win at this stage is Essendon & Gold Coast and even then we need to play a lot better than we did yesterday.

 

[captain blood 17]

Yes got the message and sorry for the backhanded insult but i still do believe that mental scarring on any sporting arena is a sign of mental weakness ,think of wat an afl player has to go through to make it ,the mentally weak hav very little chance of staying on a on a list let alone playing taylor is an example i think.The dickbrain thing made me laugh .

All good buddy. Out of all the things i could say and the best i come up with "dick brain". . No probs, keep posting away.

 

[captain blood 17]

Sorry just don't see it happening. We're currently 2 games behind Freo & Sydney and that should be 3 by next week if results go as expected.

That leaves 8th spot, we're a game and heaps of % behind the Dees who could possibly make it 2 games and % by next week against the Dogs. By tonight the Roos should be ahead of us as well and they 2 could be 2 games ahead of us next week.

That would leave us 2-3 games and % behind the other teams in contention for 7th & 8th with 9 games to go. I don't see us winning against Carlton Geelong or West Coast, we're 50-50 against Sydney Melbourne Adelaide(away) & Roos. The only games I have us favoured to win at this stage is Essendon & Gold Coast and even then we need to play a lot better than we did yesterday.

TBH neither do i, but just trying to look at the bigger picture of other factors. I reckon North and Melbourne to round out the 8.

 

[santa claws]

Put your money where you mouth is and show me where i said we are a genuine top 8 side. At no time have i ever said that. I said their is a gap between the 1-3 > 4-6 >> 7-12 >>> the rest. Their is no stand out team vying for the 7th and 8th spot and we are still a chance to sneak in. If we do it will be brilliant, if we dont its not the end of the world as that will be the likely outcome.

Oh and by the way santa, in todays HUN Dimma was going on about "stats" specifically our 32 clangers and how its normally our total for 2 games, and our 12 turnovers in the defensive 50 cost us 6 goals and how they are our main priorities at the moment to rectify.

So santa, my question to you is… Stats shmats.

You always keep reminding everyone that those who talk stats are talking rubbish, so is Dimma talking crap?

lol you made some spurious argument about wce carlton and collingwood being good sides in the yrs they finished 7th 8th. i corrected your assumption i also pointed out the different situations those teams were in to us. i actually thought you would be smart enough to spot the difference but obviously not.

i havent needed stats to voice exactly what hardwick has said, ive been saying it for how long now. ive used my eyes and its been obvious not just this yr but for yrs. perhaps i should be coaching because if hardwick needed stats to see the bleeding obvious hes probably not the man for the job.

heres a bit of advice for dimma. you wont significantly improve those things while you continue to play so many glass half fulls and skinny runts.
keep cutting deep because you need to, keep with the youth policy see it thru. and ffs while we rebuild never ever mention finals all it does is raise unrealistic expectations of deluded supporters who have absolutely no patience.. end of advice.

we will always border on mediocrity while we have so many ordinary players on the list that need upgrading on.
we cant get rid of them all in one go ive said at least 3 drafts to do this. maybe just maybe if we trade and draft well 2011 2012 and actually add to what decent players we have we may be a chance in 2013 to finish in the lower reaches of the 8.
as far as im concerned we are hawthorn of 05 or carlton of 07, wce of 2000 2001.collingwood of 04 stkilda of 02 and im probably being kind.

 

[santa claws]

Tell you what Ray, you can believe that we're worthy of making finals now if you like, but on what I witnessed yesterday, against the Swans a couple of weeks back and the earlier games against the Dogs Hawks & Pies there is no way on Earth we're a finals side this year. If we were to make it, odds are, we would get smacked. The only way we wouldn't is if as you said we were able to play our best 22 against an opponent who has been ravaged by injury and even then I don't think we would be that much better off. So with that I'm ending my involvement in this discussion as I don't see any point continuing on with the debate about finals seeing as we're effectively no chance of making the finals this year after yesterdays loss.

i agree with this i would go further and say next yr it is unlikely we will make finals as well. we have absolutely no depth and way to many holes in the list and just far to many glass half full player to turn over.

realistically well for me anyway 2013 we may be a chance for the 8, as long as we find some players in trades and the nd in 2011 and 2012 and build on what decent players we have.
being realistic and honest about the list and where we are at is not being negative its just a fact of life.

We all agree i think that the club is going thru the right processes in the main to build a competetive finals side. People just have to remember that it is early days very early days and we have so much more to do to get their.

All that is required now, is for us all to be honest realistic and damn patient. It may take 2 yrs or it may take 5, either one we now just have to keep on the right track, keep doing what we are now and we will make finals. We need to see thru and finish what we have started.

Where have we come from? Thats easy, a list full of duds with a few decent players.
Where are we at now? Not as far along as most would like to think.

A list with a few a and b graders less duds but far to many ordinary players.
i like to think we have replaced most of the duds with mostly ordinary players we now need to replace the ordinary players with decent players.