Is our future bright?

[jacob17]

Lets look at our young talls

Talia - 195cm
Redpath - 194cm
T Boyd - 200cm
Z Cordy - 191cm
A Cordy - 202cm
T Campbell - 201 cm
F Roberts - 193cm
J Roughead - 200cm


There are plenty of talls in the mix...

M bontempelli is 193-4 now
J stringer is 191-2
J MCrea is 191
oh and jong is like 189-190

Just to add to the list

 

[Zgope1]

The decision that I am most disappointed about in terms of drafting was not to take Foster as a father son selection. As the leading TAC goal scorer, the kid clearly had enough talent to take a punt on. Particularly when you consider his father matured late. I think there are a number of players that have been on our list for a long enough time (without establishing themselves) to suggest that the chances of them making it as top line players is now low, and therefore they could be considered as long shots to make it.

I think from a list management perspective we should have made room for Foster at the expense of one of our long shots.

We need to start playing the list management percentages a lot better, it has been poor throughout the last three years. I think we have been too kind to the bottom end of the list overvaluing youth and giving them too much time to make it, and to compound our mistake we have undervalued and mismanaged our more senior players terribly.

I also think we should have drafted in some midfield experience to help carry some of the load. Someone like Brock McClean could have been handy, particularly during the mid winter period.

Getting back to the OP. I'm excited to see how well some of our young players go, I'm excited to see how the new coach goes and I think he has made a reasonable start with a good captain selection. However, I think our 'tomorrow land' approach to list management means that we still haven't approached the 2015 season as seriously as we should have.

From what I've seen of Foster he's very much just a mark and goal player. Sloppy on the deck and not a great size to be a mark and goal player. Being tac leading goal kicker as an overage isn't everything all things considered

 

[yebiga]

From what I've seen of Foster he's very much just a mark and goal player. Sloppy on the deck and not a great size to be a mark and goal player. Being tac leading goal kicker as an overage isn't everything all things considered

No your right
But if he is anything like his father he will just continue to improve and improve
No coincidence his picked by carlton - his dad played under Mick. Malthouse would remember exactly how his father developed from ordinary to one of the very best CHBs in the league.

 

[dogwatch]

I acknowledge all those things in this thread except for the hysteria about not drafting in talls. It's incorrect and we've recruited talls although not as many as we'd like.

Your post is very dramatic and ignores that I've mentioned those things. The thread is about the future, not our horrible off season. History says clubs can bounce back from these things, the early signs are good and there's other things to be positive about.

But I'm a realist

Intended irony?

I saw a protracted debate where both sides argued their cases (sometimes at length and repetitively) but I didn't see any hysteria.
Hysteria: an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear,often characterized by irrationality, laughter,weeping, etc.

If we really want to get back to a reasoned debate and not escalate into name-calling then all sides need to avoid hyperbole when describing each others' behaviour.

Just my opinion, mind.

 

[Dazb86]

I think our future is reasonably bright. Our KPP's are an issue like always.

I can only really see one of them with the potential to be All Australian quality.

 

[doggies ftw]

This off season has gone a little pear shaped
I believe we were all expecting for the last couple seasons to pick up some talls in this draft and finally end what has been a problem for what seems forever. We got Boyd and then went for silk in the draft. Who doesn't like silk, I find myself excited about all our draft picks. But I also feel strongly it was really wrong to not have thrown in another tall or two. It was wrong on so many levels.

For me it's a philosophical thing
Big forwards and Big defenders you need to keep turning them over to find gems

If there really wasn't anything we believed in, then we had to punt on Reece Mckenzie
He was there at our last pick and whatever his issues he has enormous potential

Picking 5 class acts is great, I love them all but strategically it was an error
We could have mitigated the error in the rookie draft and again decided not too

The problem is that even if we have nailed every single pick this year it was still wrong
To correct the problem we ourselves have chosen to create we will be forced to trade our silk for key position players.

God help us if we get some injuries to our key defenders in 2015 , 2016- it will get real ugly

We brought in 1 KPF and 2 KPDs to be fair. Its easy to say we had to punt on Reece McKenzie but why? He wasn't picked up until a pick in the 70s, surely were better off not reaching 30 places for him? Just because he was talked up so much on BF does not mean he's good obviously every club doesnt rate him.

Its not an error though, its an error in your opinion, the guys who get paid big money to manage the list believe its not. You said we needed 12 KPPs on the list, I pointed out we have as many as you wanted.

 

[Zgope1]

Intended irony?

I saw a protracted debate where both sides argued their cases (sometimes at length and repetitively) but I didn't see any hysteria.
Hysteria: an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear,often characterized by irrationality, laughter,weeping, etc.

If we really want to get back to a reasoned debate and not escalate into name-calling then all sides need to avoid hyperbole when describing each others' behaviour.

Just my opinion, mind.

I wouldn't call it an uncontrollable outburst but there's a lot of fear based irrationality being trotted with regards to our past affecting our future in this thread.

And a certain poster is known to laugh at the opinions of others disagreeing with him and rarely uses reason to justify his views. Unless that reason is a weak : "it's just from what I've seen" compare that to dannnn's posts when he disagrees on a player.

If my use of hysteria is wrong, it doesn't make peoples bloating of what's happened this off season right in assessing the positives in our future

 

[fargy]

Maybe we are very confident of getting an established KPD at the end of next year. Just a thought.

 

[Zgope1]

Intended irony?

I saw a protracted debate where both sides argued their cases (sometimes at length and repetitively) but I didn't see any hysteria.
Hysteria: an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear,often characterized by irrationality, laughter,weeping, etc.

If we really want to get back to a reasoned debate and not escalate into name-calling then all sides need to avoid hyperbole when describing each others' behaviour.

Just my opinion, mind.

And some of the post draft reactions have definitely been hysterical. Hence my use of the ignore button. Don't need to be labelled a defender for that though. You can tell when people are up for some disagreement and when they are loving slamming the club with an immoveable position on the matter

 

[TempleKelvington]

Funny thing....now and then I venture to the other boards to see what they are talking about and sure enough many of them have the same issues we have with our drafting and list management. They often discuss how they missed a player or how they recruited too many of a certain type and so on. In some cases you'd swear it was the Bulldog board lol.

 

[Dav1d]

Funny thing....now and then I venture to the other boards to see what they are talking about and sure enough many of them have the same issues we have with our drafting and list management. They often discuss how they missed a player or how they recruited too many of a certain type and so on. In some cases you'd swear it was the Bulldog board lol.

yeah, I have noticed that to

I bet Fremantle were surprised they didn't take one tall in the draft either

Anyhow, I think we have 5-6 real good players for our future and probably need another 5-6 to really put the hurt on most opposition clubs
pretty much could end up with a team that my Grandma could coach to a grand final lol

 

[doggies ftw]

Funny thing....now and then I venture to the other boards to see what they are talking about and sure enough many of them have the same issues we have with our drafting and list management. They often discuss how they missed a player or how they recruited too many of a certain type and so on. In some cases you'd swear it was the Bulldog board lol.

And also theres a few articles talking about how the rookie list isn't just for undeveloped kids anymore, its for guys who you know are going to train right and can fill in and play if needed, etc.

So seems were not the only incompetent club going around

 

[stefoid]

Even though me and matt dougie disagree on Jong I tend to agree on Hrovat. Very limited footballer who will never be elite. He has time to improve. I also don't see the love for wallis either, slow, short kicks and hot potatoes handballs don't work at afl level. Granted I like his desire but will never be elite either.
Just read the full rookie list of draftees. Quite a few over 192cm. Strange move we didn't take a punt on a true tall.

Wallis reeks of someone who will succeed at least as far as B grade on pure determination. He is a marvelous tagger - B grade tagger for sure. He has aspirations to expand beyond tagging, and with Grif and Cooney gone, hell have a season or two to prove it. But defiantely B grade tagger at worst.

Reckon the need for replacing Murph and actually having more than one quality ball user in defence is greater than a quality key defender. We took in 3 or 4 players who could play that role. If two of them make B grade+, its a great outcome.

 

[Zgope1]

Wallis reeks of someone who will succeed at least as far as B grade on pure determination. He is a marvelous tagger - B grade tagger for sure. He has aspirations to expand beyond tagging, and with Grif and Cooney gone, hell have a season or two to prove it. But defiantely B grade tagger at worst.

Reckon the need for replacing Murph and actually having more than one quality ball user in defence is greater than a quality key defender. We took in 3 or 4 players who could play that role. If two of them make B grade+, its a great outcome.

stoked at how damaging all of the draftees are with ball in hand

 

[TempleKelvington]

Lets look at our young talls

Talia - 195cm
Redpath - 194cm
T Boyd - 200cm
Z Cordy - 191cm
A Cordy - 202cm
T Campbell - 201 cm
F Roberts - 193cm
J Roughead - 200cm


There are plenty of talls in the mix...

Yep just posted in list management a comparison to us and Freo and Hawks list. Confirms this.

 

[dogwatch]

I wouldn't call it an uncontrollable outburst but there's a lot of fear based irrationality being trotted with regards to our past affecting our future in this thread.

And a certain poster is known to laugh at the opinions of others disagreeing with him and rarely uses reason to justify his views. Unless that reason is a weak : "it's just from what I've seen" compare that to dannnn's posts when he disagrees on a player.

If my use of hysteria is wrong, it doesn't make peoples bloating of what's happened this off season right in assessing the positives in our future

Not trying to single you out zg1 ... You're one of the more reasonable posters. It's just that particular juxtaposition caught my eye.

I do understand what you're talking about though. It can be infuriating.

Anyway the expression of strong opinions shows we're all passionate about the subject, even if we don't always agree on what should be done. We're not going anywhere as a club unless we have a passionate supporter base. We are miles ahead of the likes of GWS in that regard.

 

[_Mike_]

Absolutely but I think alot of us think this year especially we should have gambled tall. But the whole thing is a crap shoot so who's knows.

Still nothing excuses drafting a midget when we already have 3 no matter how it's spun

a lot of shit picks over the last few years are coming back to haunt us. once we get over the rookie mistakes taking discards from other clubs, and players who just couldnt cut it, we'll fare better

 

[Mattdougie]

a lot of shit picks over the last few years are coming back to haunt us. once we get over the rookie mistakes taking discards from other clubs, and players who just couldnt cut it, we'll fare better

So Dalrymples sh!t picks from the last few years are hurting us but we expect him to dig us out of the hole?

After this years drafting I honestly think he needs to go and he is the next on my gun. I cannot believ they recruited that tiny bloke at such a late pick its is nothing other than moronic mate

 

[Beasley]

I have my doubts on Redpath and Ayce Cordy

I have similar doubts and feel that Ayce will simply not make it ....... But hold out some hope for Redpath after watching his game in the grand final.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

I'd suggest our picks from 2005-08 are doing more damage than anything else. We're missing half a decade's worth of quality.

2005 - Higgins, Addison, Baird, Montgomery, West - all gone.
2006 - Everitt, Stack, Hill, Lynch, O'Shea - all gone.
2007 - Grant, Ward, Reid, Wood, Boumann, O'Keefe - special circumstances for Ward aside, we've got one best 22 player from that crop.
2008 - Cordy, Roughead, Jones - again, one best 22 player and there are still question marks over his head.

Dalrymple's first draft was a disaster, but I think he's done a reasonably good job since. He couldn't go wrong in 2010 with Liberatore and Wallis available, but other than that, he's done well.

In 2011, we picked Clay Smith ahead of Hayden Crozier following Ward's departure - a fit and firing Clay will demonstrate why this was the case. We were lucky to get a reasonably impressive but raw key position defender in Talia at 39, and Dickson is one of very few forwards in our squad that can be relied upon to mark in forward 50 and slot the goal. Pearce has shown little, but he's been ravaged by injury.

In 2012, we went with Stringer and Macrae - both elite talents. "Oh, but anyone can nail a pick in the top 10" - I'm so glad you said that. The 3 players that went before Stringer and Macrae? O'Rourke, Plowman and Toumpas. If you need further evidence that an early draft pick isn't a guaranteed 200 gamer, look at the near-decade of garbage Scott Clayton served up with early picks, Cooney and Griffen the exceptions. Hrovat was good value at 21, having been overlooked because of his height. Jury is out on Prudden.

In 2013, we picked Bontempelli, a bolter. A gutsy pick at the time with more assured prospects in Kolodjashnij and Adelaide-bound Aish still on the table, we went for the raw prototype player with enormous scope for improvement - and I challenge anyone to argue that it hasn't paid off, at least at this point in time. Fuller appeared an inspired pick at the time given our dearth of players in his age bracket, but I've seen literally nothing to be excited about - I believe he might be injured, but the outlook isn't so good at this point. I won't bore people with what I think of Honeychurch but he was tremendous value at 60.

Who knows what we'll make of the 2014 crop? Initially I wasn't too impressed, and would've preferred that we took a chance on a guy like McDonald in the ND or even Keitel in the RD (although I'm assured that he is shit), but I'm glad that the club had the guts to pick Caleb Daniel - if you're good enough, you're tall enough, and he's good enough. We selected him with the pick we got for Jones, who is still lolloping down the yellow brick road on his way to ask the Wizard for a brain. Hamilton is one that I'm unsure about, but I like McLean, Webb and Dale.

Is this draft the be-all and end-all? Far from it. We haven't finished adding elite talent to our list, but what we've done is address a serious problem - our ball movement in the last 3-4 years has been absolutely stagnant. Guys like McLean, Webb, Dale, Smith and Biggs can break the lines and kick well.

Obviously our defensive structures and efforts in 2014 were absolutely woeful, but there isn't exactly a dearth of KPDs on the list - there's certainly a dearth of quality/proven KPPs, but we have to start somewhere. Roughead, Talia, Roberts, Cordy and Hamling are all KPP height and competing for that place in the side. I don't think all will make it, and think some are better suited to other defensive roles/other areas of the ground, so with any luck we'll be able to lure a mature defender to the club at the end of next season.

It's easy to get sucked into the idea that we have to address all our needs at one draft - we'd be missing out on players of a higher standard in our determination to just tick a few boxes and hope those players come good in those roles. They're playing the long game, they're not going to panic and submit to the common media misconceptions.

And hey - isn't it nice to have just one off-season in which we're NOT asking who is going to play full forward? And not lamenting that the answer is Liam Jones?

 

[Ozimandas]

Well your username is almost appropriate to your outlook.

O king of kings, look at Dals handyworks, ye mighty, and despair
Nothing beside remains, round the decay
Of that collosal wreck, Boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Me? I rekon we'll be ok in the long run. Short term we are going to struggle and I'm happy to hold hands around the campfire as we wait that bit out

Please define your version of 'long term'.

I am almost 50.
Seen it before.
Heard it before.

Not even a gf appearance FFS.

 

[Bazza Bulldog]

So Dalrymples sh!t picks from the last few years are hurting us but we expect him to dig us out of the hole?

After this years drafting I honestly think he needs to go and he is the next on my gun. I cannot believ they recruited that tiny bloke at such a late pick its is nothing other than moronic mate

Sounds like the start of a new thread (for most of us to avoid). Do you think he has got the 1st round picks right in the past few years? For instance would you swap Bonti for Aish OR McCrae/Stringer for Wines? I think there were players taken above our picks who will not be as good (Toumpas, O'Rourke, Kelly, Billings (though think he'll be very good - Bonts is just better).

 

[Mattdougie]

Sounds like the start of a new thread (for most of us to avoid). Do you think he has got the 1st round picks right in the past few years? For instance would you swap Bonti for Aish OR McCrae/Stringer for Wines? I think there were players taken above our picks who will not be as good (Toumpas, O'Rourke, Kelly, Billings (though think he'll be very good - Bonts is just better).

I don't think any recruiter should be based on their first rounders coz I'd think probably 80% these days make it

Dalrymples picks after round 1 have been nothing other than miserable IMO

And yes while you ask id personally prefer Wines to McRae BUT I'm not unhappy with McRae at all I jut live the ways Wines goes at it

 

[Zgope1]

Agree dal's been decent after that stinker in 09. Obviously we'll be able to say that with more conviction after a couple more years looking at Roberts, talia, Campbell, Jj and a lot of this years crop

 

[Gmod23]

I'd suggest our picks from 2005-08 are doing more damage than anything else. We're missing half a decade's worth of quality.

2005 - Higgins, Addison, Baird, Montgomery, West - all gone.
2006 - Everitt, Stack, Hill, Lynch, O'Shea - all gone.
2007 - Grant, Ward, Reid, Wood, Boumann, O'Keefe - special circumstances for Ward aside, we've got one best 22 player from that crop.
2008 - Cordy, Roughead, Jones - again, one best 22 player and there are still question marks over his head.

Dalrymple's first draft was a disaster, but I think he's done a reasonably good job since. He couldn't go wrong in 2010 with Liberatore and Wallis available, but other than that, he's done well.

In 2011, we picked Clay Smith ahead of Hayden Crozier following Ward's departure - a fit and firing Clay will demonstrate why this was the case. We were lucky to get a reasonably impressive but raw key position defender in Talia at 39, and Dickson is one of very few forwards in our squad that can be relied upon to mark in forward 50 and slot the goal. Pearce has shown little, but he's been ravaged by injury.

In 2012, we went with Stringer and Macrae - both elite talents. "Oh, but anyone can nail a pick in the top 10" - I'm so glad you said that. The 3 players that went before Stringer and Macrae? O'Rourke, Plowman and Toumpas. If you need further evidence that an early draft pick isn't a guaranteed 200 gamer, look at the near-decade of garbage Scott Clayton served up with early picks, Cooney and Griffen the exceptions. Hrovat was good value at 21, having been overlooked because of his height. Jury is out on Prudden.

In 2013, we picked Bontempelli, a bolter. A gutsy pick at the time with more assured prospects in Kolodjashnij and Adelaide-bound Aish still on the table, we went for the raw prototype player with enormous scope for improvement - and I challenge anyone to argue that it hasn't paid off, at least at this point in time. Fuller appeared an inspired pick at the time given our dearth of players in his age bracket, but I've seen literally nothing to be excited about - I believe he might be injured, but the outlook isn't so good at this point. I won't bore people with what I think of Honeychurch but he was tremendous value at 60.

Who knows what we'll make of the 2014 crop? Initially I wasn't too impressed, and would've preferred that we took a chance on a guy like McDonald in the ND or even Keitel in the RD (although I'm assured that he is shit), but I'm glad that the club had the guts to pick Caleb Daniel - if you're good enough, you're tall enough, and he's good enough. We selected him with the pick we got for Jones, who is still lolloping down the yellow brick road on his way to ask the Wizard for a brain. Hamilton is one that I'm unsure about, but I like McLean, Webb and Dale.

Is this draft the be-all and end-all? Far from it. We haven't finished adding elite talent to our list, but what we've done is address a serious problem - our ball movement in the last 3-4 years has been absolutely stagnant. Guys like McLean, Webb, Dale, Smith and Biggs can break the lines and kick well.

Obviously our defensive structures and efforts in 2014 were absolutely woeful, but there isn't exactly a dearth of KPDs on the list - there's certainly a dearth of quality/proven KPPs, but we have to start somewhere. Roughead, Talia, Roberts, Cordy and Hamling are all KPP height and competing for that place in the side. I don't think all will make it, and think some are better suited to other defensive roles/other areas of the ground, so with any luck we'll be able to lure a mature defender to the club at the end of next season.

It's easy to get sucked into the idea that we have to address all our needs at one draft - we'd be missing out on players of a higher standard in our determination to just tick a few boxes and hope those players come good in those roles. They're playing the long game, they're not going to panic and submit to the common media misconceptions.

And hey - isn't it nice to have just one off-season in which we're NOT asking who is going to play full forward? And not lamenting that the answer is Liam Jones?

Great post. Nice to see some logic!