Is our future bright?

[Mattdougie]

You do realize the Pelchin article ends at the lines and the opinion piece
is Stefoid's which comes with the statement in two years hopefully and
wish fulfillment. Plus his avatar has a really big stick.

Do u realise i was taking the p!ss mate

 

[Gmod23]

This is how I see the list so is there light or not ?

Mature players = Murphy Boyd Mino Morris Picken

A grade(guns)= Boyd Bonts Stringer Libba Mcrae

B grade = Wallis Dahl Crameri Wood JJ Hunter Darley

C grade = Grant Smith Roughead Stevens Campbell

Might make it = Roberts Honey Talia, Redpath, 2014 draftees

Won't make it = Hrovat Prudden Dickson Fuller Cordy Jong

MD sometime we agree on player ratings and some we disagree on. Can you elaborate on a few of them:
Surprised you rate Darley and JJ higher than Stevens and Smith.
Is that because of Stevens lack of an elite quality? Smiths injuries? Or different reasons.
Hrovat & Prudden I would have thought would be in the Might make it category. Do you have them differently due to injuries OR is it that you think they are elite VFL players who can't translate that game to AFL? Perhaps a different reason, please elaborate.

 

[JJHunter]

I never said we'd win a flag in 5 years. Doesn't change that we have some special young talent and a track record recently of decent development. There's a difference between disagreeing on certain young players or your confidence in a recruiter and an obvious love of sinking the boots in and not supporting your opinion with viable arguments. I've shown previously in this thread I'll respond to people assessing players differently. Don't call me a defender.

Having said that, I don't understand why footy would be fun to people if they spent no time being excited about the good bits

We have just had our captain and my favourite player walk
We have just had my second favourite player and brownlow medalist walk
We have had two young kids, and another member of our leadership group after being offered a contract but they chose to want to be elsewhere
We have had our coach resign
We have just gone our third year not drafting anyone over 192cm and in regards to the two we got over that height in trades - one is two years off being a A or B grader and the other has been on the Ayce Cordy diet his whole life.

So forgive me for not being positive about having 5 top half dozen draft picks playing well all under the age of 20, when competitors have much stronger lists and clubs like the Suns and GWS have double the exciting youngsters we are boasting about.
So forgive me and others for being just a little down on the club and not being able to focus on our chances of playing finals in 3 years
So forgive me for not getting excited about our prospects next year while trying to learn an new game plan.

Well done to you all who are able to ignore all the happenings of the last few months and can only see blue skies.
I wish I had access to the glasses some of you have I really do - but I can only see the 12 months ahead of the club and the grey skies that have far from cleared over our club

 

[Zgope1]

We have just had our captain and my favourite player walk
We have just had my second favourite player and brownlow medalist walk
We have had two young kids, and another member of our leadership group after being offered a contract but they chose to want to be elsewhere
We have had our coach resign
We have just gone our third year not drafting anyone over 192cm and in regards to the two we got over that height in trades - one is two years off being a A or B grader and the other has been on the Ayce Cordy diet his whole life.

So forgive me for not being positive about having 5 top half dozen draft picks playing well all under the age of 20, when competitors have much stronger lists and clubs like the Suns and GWS have double the exciting youngsters we are boasting about.
So forgive me and others for being just a little down on the club and not being able to focus on our chances of playing finals in 3 years
So forgive me for not getting excited about our prospects next year while trying to learn an new game plan.

Well done to you all who are able to ignore all the happenings of the last few months and can only see blue skies.
I wish I had access to the glasses some of you have I really do - but I can only see the 12 months ahead of the club and the grey skies that have far from cleared over our club

I acknowledge all those things in this thread except for the hysteria about not drafting in talls. It's incorrect and we've recruited talls although not as many as we'd like.

Your post is very dramatic and ignores that I've mentioned those things. The thread is about the future, not our horrible off season. History says clubs can bounce back from these things, the early signs are good and there's other things to be positive about.

But I'm a realist

 

[cleveland]

This is how I see the list so is there light or not ?

Mature players = Murphy Boyd Mino Morris Picken

A grade(guns)= Boyd Bonts Stringer Libba Mcrae

B grade = Wallis Dahl Crameri Wood JJ Hunter Darley

C grade = Grant Smith Roughead Stevens Campbell

Might make it = Roberts Honey Talia, Redpath, 2014 draftees

Won't make it = Hrovat Prudden Dickson Fuller Cordy Jong

So still nearly ten blokes on list IMO that are simply not up to it and never will be so still plenty work to be done but there is always light

And this list is where I think players will end their careers not where they are now

Wow hrovat and Jong not up to it lol

 

[Mattdougie]

MD sometime we agree on player ratings and some we disagree on. Can you elaborate on a few of them:
Surprised you rate Darley and JJ higher than Stevens and Smith.
Is that because of Stevens lack of an elite quality? Smiths injuries? Or different reasons.
Hrovat & Prudden I would have thought would be in the Might make it category. Do you have them differently due to injuries OR is it that you think they are elite VFL players who can't translate that game to AFL? Perhaps a different reason, please elaborate.

Mate most of the opinions I'm now stating are just based on what I see, I have no tangible evidence to support them they are purely my speculations. As are those that say the players WILL make it.

I just think JJ can make another step forward and be very good, breaking lines and carrying the ball.

I just have a feeling that Darley will be pretty good, I like the way he positions himself and is a nice kick. He has been poorly coached and used but has shown flashes of what he can do.

I love the way both Stevens and Smith play but I don't see a lot of upside to Stevens I think he is about as good as he will get (yes I know he is only young) and Smith has been Crüe led by injury, I really hope he gets a run at it and becomes a very good player.

My issue with Hrovat is not only do I see him as just an average player, I don't see the poise or so called great delivery that some say exists and his size worrys me when he is not an elite player. When your tiny you must be pretty bloody good and in my eyes he simply isn't as Ive said 1009 times I've watched this kid at AFL and VFL level and I'm simply staggered some rate him so highly. I personally think it's blind bias and optimism.

Prudden couldn't even get a sniff in a rubbish team and yes I know he has had injuries but I haven't seen much to excite me BUT he hasn't had a lot of opportunity im happy to admit.

And let's discuss Jong, I'm happy to again admit the kid has made amazing improvement. I watched his first intra club at whiten oval and I was embarrassed for him he was that bad. But thru desire and hard work he has become a handy VFL player. Yes I said handy coz he was in a good team, let's see how he goes In an average team. Some say he has a massive upside and that's their opinion, I think he has so many fundamental errors he won't ever be able to bridge the gap but if anyone can he had the desire to I will give him that much.

And again my ratings are what I think the players will become, not what they are now

 

[_Mike_]

We have just gone our third year not drafting anyone over 192cm and in regards to the two we got over that height in trades

Lets look at our young talls

Talia - 195cm
Redpath - 194cm
T Boyd - 200cm
Z Cordy - 191cm
A Cordy - 202cm
T Campbell - 201 cm
F Roberts - 193cm
J Roughead - 200cm


There are plenty of talls in the mix...

 

[Dav1d]

Lets look at our young talls

Talia - 195cm
Redpath - 194cm
T Boyd - 200cm
Z Cordy - 191cm
A Cordy - 202cm
T Campbell - 201 cm
F Roberts - 193cm
J Roughead - 200cm


There are plenty of talls in the mix...

Zaine apparently said to someone on here that he was 194cm, hopefully that is true
miss Hamling intentionally?

I have my doubts on Redpath and Ayce Cordy

 

[Mattdougie]

Lets look at our young talls

Talia - 195cm
Redpath - 194cm
T Boyd - 200cm
Z Cordy - 191cm
A Cordy - 202cm
T Campbell - 201 cm
F Roberts - 193cm
J Roughead - 200cm


There are plenty of talls in the mix...

But are they gonna make it mate?? I think that's the issue, half these blokes probably won't

 

[_Mike_]

But are they gonna make it mate?? I think that's the issue, half these blokes probably won't

whilst that maye be true - are there any guarantees that any draftee will make it? there never is. Sometimes you need a lot of luck.. We've rarely had it with drafting

 

[giblj]

Lets look at our young talls

Talia - 195cm
Redpath - 194cm
T Boyd - 200cm
Z Cordy - 191cm
A Cordy - 202cm
T Campbell - 201 cm
F Roberts - 193cm
J Roughead - 200cm


There are plenty of talls in the mix...

Fletch is 196 isn't he? Just a small nitpick and one for the 'KPPs don't count unless they're over 195cm' brigade

 

[Mattdougie]

whilst that maye be true - are there any guarantees that any draftee will make it? there never is. Sometimes you need a lot of luck.. We've rarely had it with drafting

Absolutely but I think alot of us think this year especially we should have gambled tall. But the whole thing is a crap shoot so who's knows.

Still nothing excuses drafting a midget when we already have 3 no matter how it's spun

 

[yebiga]

Lets look at our young talls

Talia - 195cm
Redpath - 194cm
T Boyd - 200cm
Z Cordy - 191cm
A Cordy - 202cm
T Campbell - 201 cm
F Roberts - 193cm
J Roughead - 200cm


There are plenty of talls in the mix...

I don't know
You need 3 defence
You at least 2 in the forward line
And a ruckman

That is 6 in the 22
And then you need 6 understudies
So a balanced list would have 12 at a minimum

Just saying

 

[doggies ftw]

I don't know
You need 3 defence
You at least 2 in the forward line
And a ruckman

That is 6 in the 22
And then you need 6 understudies
So a balanced list would have 12 at a minimum

Just saying

Just as a quick example

Rough, Moz and Talia in the 1s, Roberts, Cordy, Hamling, Kelly in the 2s.

Boyd and Stringer in the forward line, don't really have an extra genuine tall that we probably need but have the likes of Crameri, Grant and Bonts to help out, maybe Campbell or quite possibly one of Roughy or Roberts but who knows where we see those guys playing at this stage. Redpath and probably one of those guys ^ (depending on how we structure up) in the 2s.

Minson in the 1s, Cordy in the 2s

So looking at it that way were really not that light on for talls and its being massively overstated on here.

No doubt we need to keep turning over the ones who don't make it but it takes time and I'm 100% sure the guys in charge of the list are aware of this and have plans in place (rate the talls in the next draft or have a few trade targets in mind etc) but yeah it takes time and the list isnt finished yet but it is gradually getting there.

Ideally I would have loved if we just say rookied a CHF type like Payne at our 2nd pick and took Kelly at our 3rd but ah well thats not gonna make or break our list.

FWIW someone on woof gave Hamling a short, decent wrap from training. He was a highly rated kid who was behind a few at Geelong and as I keep saying, key defenders take time!!! He might just be a decent player lets give him a chance.

 

[yebiga]

Just as a quick example

Rough, Moz and Talia in the 1s, Roberts, Cordy, Hamling, Kelly in the 2s.

Boyd and Stringer in the forward line, don't really have an extra genuine tall that we probably need but have the likes of Crameri, Grant and Bonts to help out, maybe Campbell or quite possibly one of Roughy or Roberts but who knows where we see those guys playing at this stage. Redpath and probably one of those guys ^ (depending on how we structure up) in the 2s.

Minson in the 1s, Cordy in the 2s

So looking at it that way were really not that light on for talls and its being massively overstated on here.

No doubt we need to keep turning over the ones who don't make it but it takes time and I'm 100% sure the guys in charge of the list are aware of this and have plans in place (rate the talls in the next draft or have a few trade targets in mind etc) but yeah it takes time and the list isnt finished yet but it is gradually getting there.

Ideally I would have loved if we just say rookied a CHF type like Payne at our 2nd pick and took Kelly at our 3rd but ah well thats not gonna make or break our list.

FWIW someone on woof gave Hamling a short, decent wrap from training. He was a highly rated kid who was behind a few at Geelong and as I keep saying, key defenders take time!!! He might just be a decent player lets give him a chance.

This off season has gone a little pear shaped
I believe we were all expecting for the last couple seasons to pick up some talls in this draft and finally end what has been a problem for what seems forever. We got Boyd and then went for silk in the draft. Who doesn't like silk, I find myself excited about all our draft picks. But I also feel strongly it was really wrong to not have thrown in another tall or two. It was wrong on so many levels.

For me it's a philosophical thing
Big forwards and Big defenders you need to keep turning them over to find gems

If there really wasn't anything we believed in, then we had to punt on Reece Mckenzie
He was there at our last pick and whatever his issues he has enormous potential

Picking 5 class acts is great, I love them all but strategically it was an error
We could have mitigated the error in the rookie draft and again decided not too

The problem is that even if we have nailed every single pick this year it was still wrong
To correct the problem we ourselves have chosen to create we will be forced to trade our silk for key position players.

God help us if we get some injuries to our key defenders in 2015 , 2016- it will get real ugly

 

[Proffessor]

The decision that I am most disappointed about in terms of drafting was not to take Foster as a father son selection. As the leading TAC goal scorer, the kid clearly had enough talent to take a punt on. Particularly when you consider his father matured late. I think there are a number of players that have been on our list for a long enough time (without establishing themselves) to suggest that the chances of them making it as top line players is now low, and therefore they could be considered as long shots to make it.

I think from a list management perspective we should have made room for Foster at the expense of one of our long shots.

We need to start playing the list management percentages a lot better, it has been poor throughout the last three years. I think we have been too kind to the bottom end of the list overvaluing youth and giving them too much time to make it, and to compound our mistake we have undervalued and mismanaged our more senior players terribly.

I also think we should have drafted in some midfield experience to help carry some of the load. Someone like Brock McClean could have been handy, particularly during the mid winter period.

Getting back to the OP. I'm excited to see how well some of our young players go, I'm excited to see how the new coach goes and I think he has made a reasonable start with a good captain selection. However, I think our 'tomorrow land' approach to list management means that we still haven't approached the 2015 season as seriously as we should have.

 

[paul scholes]

We have just had our captain and my favourite player walk
We have just had my second favourite player and brownlow medalist walk
We have had two young kids, and another member of our leadership group after being offered a contract but they chose to want to be elsewhere
We have had our coach resign
We have just gone our third year not drafting anyone over 192cm and in regards to the two we got over that height in trades - one is two years off being a A or B grader and the other has been on the Ayce Cordy diet his whole life.

So forgive me for not being positive about having 5 top half dozen draft picks playing well all under the age of 20, when competitors have much stronger lists and clubs like the Suns and GWS have double the exciting youngsters we are boasting about.
So forgive me and others for being just a little down on the club and not being able to focus on our chances of playing finals in 3 years
So forgive me for not getting excited about our prospects next year while trying to learn an new game plan.

Well done to you all who are able to ignore all the happenings of the last few months and can only see blue skies.
I wish I had access to the glasses some of you have I really do - but I can only see the 12 months ahead of the club and the grey skies that have far from cleared over our club

We're going to struggle next season We've gone to being the second least experienced side on average games played.
We unloaded some dead wood IMHO, but comparing GWS and the Suns is bordering on stupidity.
How on earth are we to compete with two sides who have effectively handed premierships with Rediculous draft concessions, 17 year olds, zone selections ! Need I go on ? Even Peter Rohde could coach their clubs to something resembling success! Please have some sort of perspective

 

[paul scholes]

The decision that I am most disappointed about in terms of drafting was not to take Foster as a father son selection. As the leading TAC goal scorer, the kid clearly had enough talent to take a punt on. Particularly when you consider his father matured late. I think there are a number of players that have been on our list for a long enough time (without establishing themselves) to suggest that the chances of them making it as top line players is now low, and therefore they could be considered as long shots to make it.

I think from a list management perspective we should have made room for Foster at the expense of one of our long shots.

We need to start playing the list management percentages a lot better, it has been poor throughout the last three years. I think we have been too kind to the bottom end of the list overvaluing youth and giving them too much time to make it, and to compound our mistake we have undervalued and mismanaged our more senior players terribly.

I also think we should have drafted in some midfield experience to help carry some of the load. Someone like Brock McClean could have been handy, particularly during the mid winter period.

Getting back to the OP. I'm excited to see how well some of our young players go, I'm excited to see how the new coach goes and I think he has made a reasonable start with a good captain selection. However, I think our 'tomorrow land' approach to list management means that we still haven't approached the 2015 season as seriously as we should have.

I don't get it .What on earth has young Fosters trajectory got to do with his old man? Glad we picked David Round because his old man came good late. Foster was overlooked until what.. Pick 60 odd!
Clearly other teams don't rate him either, and in fact if we had of put in a bid it was a pick in the 40's.
I think the skies were looking bleak for 2015 when capt Sook took off, but for me it's one step back and we'll be better off long term.

 

[paul scholes]

TAC leading goal kicker .
Doesn't resemble great reading

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

The decision that I am most disappointed about in terms of drafting was not to take Foster as a father son selection. As the leading TAC goal scorer, the kid clearly had enough talent to take a punt on. Particularly when you consider his father matured late. I think there are a number of players that have been on our list for a long enough time (without establishing themselves) to suggest that the chances of them making it as top line players is now low, and therefore they could be considered as long shots to make it.

I think from a list management perspective we should have made room for Foster at the expense of one of our long shots.

We need to start playing the list management percentages a lot better, it has been poor throughout the last three years. I think we have been too kind to the bottom end of the list overvaluing youth and giving them too much time to make it, and to compound our mistake we have undervalued and mismanaged our more senior players terribly.

I also think we should have drafted in some midfield experience to help carry some of the load. Someone like Brock McClean could have been handy, particularly during the mid winter period.

Getting back to the OP. I'm excited to see how well some of our young players go, I'm excited to see how the new coach goes and I think he has made a reasonable start with a good captain selection. However, I think our 'tomorrow land' approach to list management means that we still haven't approached the 2015 season as seriously as we should have.

With regards to Foster, he wasn't seriously considered because the majority of his goals (as I understand), came against lesser opposition, given that the best of his opposition were often missing due to AIS/Championship/School duties.

That said, he's a player I'd have liked to take a chance on - I feel that he's got scope for improvement, and physical capabilities that could see him become a quality AFL player. I'm disappointed that he's not a Bulldog.

I'm inclined to agree in that we could've balanced the list and added experienced guys - I'm far from a fan of McLean, but someone in his age bracket would be more than handy.

Regardless, as supporters we can only play the hand we're dealt and be encouraging/critical as a result. 2015/16 will be interesting years.

 

[#1 Dogs Fan]

The decision that I am most disappointed about in terms of drafting was not to take Foster as a father son selection. As the leading TAC goal scorer, the kid clearly had enough talent to take a punt on. Particularly when you consider his father matured late. I think there are a number of players that have been on our list for a long enough time (without establishing themselves) to suggest that the chances of them making it as top line players is now low, and therefore they could be considered as long shots to make it.

I think from a list management perspective we should have made room for Foster at the expense of one of our long shots.

We need to start playing the list management percentages a lot better, it has been poor throughout the last three years. I think we have been too kind to the bottom end of the list overvaluing youth and giving them too much time to make it, and to compound our mistake we have undervalued and mismanaged our more senior players terribly.

I also think we should have drafted in some midfield experience to help carry some of the load. Someone like Brock McClean could have been handy, particularly during the mid winter period.

Getting back to the OP. I'm excited to see how well some of our young players go, I'm excited to see how the new coach goes and I think he has made a reasonable start with a good captain selection. However, I think our 'tomorrow land' approach to list management means that we still haven't approached the 2015 season as seriously as we should have.

I personally would have liked to have taken foster also but lets be honest, every club didnt select him with their pick and he was selected at pick 61 which is pretty late.
Personally im questioning why we didnt ofload Tutt for a pick in the 5o - 65 and recruit a kpp with that pick.

in regaurds to Brock McLean, il give it a miss seing as though our midfeild has plenty of depth and we have a few seasoned midfeilders in Boyd, Stevens and brett goodes. Even Libba and Wallas are at that stage were they should be capable of playing all 22 games to effect

 

[fronkalicious]

Dalrymple didn't rate foster at all.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Even though me and matt dougie disagree on Jong I tend to agree on Hrovat. Very limited footballer who will never be elite. He has time to improve. I also don't see the love for wallis either, slow, short kicks and hot potatoes handballs don't work at afl level. Granted I like his desire but will never be elite either.
Just read the full rookie list of draftees. Quite a few over 192cm. Strange move we didn't take a punt on a true tall.

 

[lachy]

This is how I see the list so is there light or not ?

Mature players = Murphy Boyd Mino Morris Picken

A grade(guns)= Boyd Bonts Stringer Libba Mcrae

B grade = Wallis Dahl Crameri Wood JJ Hunter Darley

C grade = Grant Smith Roughead Stevens Campbell

Might make it = Roberts Honey Talia, Redpath, 2014 draftees

Won't make it = Hrovat Prudden Dickson Fuller Cordy Jong

So still nearly ten blokes on list IMO that are simply not up to it and never will be so still plenty work to be done but there is always light

And this list is where I think players will end their careers not where they are now

A fair assessment MD. My main comments is I believe you should have used the terminology potential.

Other than Libba the other a graders are not guns yet but have shown the potential to be.

I believe you have overrated Wood, JJ and Darley, though they may make B graders they look more like C graders to me. Along those lines Hrovat and Jong look more like C graders than won't make it.

The rest appear an accurate reflection of where the players potentially are at

 

[Baddog]

[QUOTE="Mattdougie, post: 36332083, member: 144435"itsWow!!! Just wow

Only a simpleton would think I'm a troll, I'vedissagreetsWowings from day one and been consistent.

Regardless what the inflated egos think I don't say things to annoy people I say them coz they are my opinion and last time I checked much like you I'm entitled to it.

But please tell me what "evidence" I can provide for my opinion other than what I see? Is there a stat for looking at footy with both eyes open? Is there one for thinking anyone that pulls on our jumper is the next Ablett?

Do I directly belittle people who for some unknown reason think Hrovat and Jong WILL make it? Show me the evidence that 100% says they will? Other than what YOU see! Show me? Neither have done ZERO to prove they are certain to make it.

Sorry Dickson is simply sh!te and I don't care what people say he isn't a footballers a$$crack

Because I speak the truth and not the truth you want to hear don't come at me simply coz you disagree, I don't live in the clouds with foggy glasses on hoping my sh!t sandwich will turn into a chocolate cake

Ignore me its that simple (well for some it is )[/QUOTE]

Hey Mattdougie Its not the truth you are speaking Its your opinion and very much entitled to it even though I also disagree with you. Keep them coming I always enjoy reading your posts.