Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Not Important]

sadly this is true. sad, cos there are so many jewish peeps who feel the very same way and have to bear the ignominy. by that i mean those who stand-up and speak out, not those who remain silent.



and these >

 

[Not Important]

and the so-called free world sits on its hands while it’s happening. including australia.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

It's also clear the Israeli military high command has no control over what's happening on the ground.

Universities being blown up without approval, shooting Israeli hostages, shooting Israeli heroes, the IDF forces on the ground are committing large scale murders and war crimes and filming and distributing them and they don't seem to know how to stop it.

And there are Cabinet ministers telling the army high command to stop trying to stop them, just let them murder as much as they like.

Here's another story where when it turned out the Palestinian they killed was Jewish, they have an investigation. If he were Palestinian, it's not considered a crime. They're racist murderers, the lot of them.

IDF probes soldiers for mistakenly killing Palestinian convert to Judaism

The shooting incident on Thursday morning raised several questions, as the man who was shot, a Jewish convert, did not show indications of an attack.

www.jpost.com

Are they being court martialled? What's the repercussions for these actions? If they are allowed to commit these crimes with impunity then you can assume the high command are basically giving them the go ahead

 

[Blue1980]

Are they being court martialled? What's the repercussions for these actions? If they are allowed to commit these crimes with impunity then you can assume the high command are basically giving them the go ahead

I await our Israeli sympathisers to get their WhatsApp orders about how to deflect this:

1. But Hamas!
2. But Egypt!
3. Anti semitism
4. Rest of the world got to do colonialism 100s of years ago, why can’t we, you so mean.

 

[Maggie5]

Gee ISIS attack in Russia is scary. Imagine the recruits both they and HAMAS will have if and when this war is over.
No brainwashing needed.

 

[Number37]

I await our Israeli sympathisers to get their WhatsApp orders about how to deflect this:

1. But Hamas!
2. But Egypt!
3. Anti semitism
4. Rest of the world got to do colonialism 100s of years ago, why can’t we, you so mean.

5. Criticizing Israel just fuels extremism on both sides.
6. Mass rape.
7. October 7 was the worst thing to ever happen, to anyone, ever.

 

[Present Not Past]

5. Criticizing Israel just fuels extremism on both sides.
6. Mass rape.
7. October 7 was the worst thing to ever happen, to anyone, ever.

October 7 2023 doesn't even compare to 24 Feb 2022.

 

[PieLebo87]

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/

March 22, 2024

Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.

“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country...”

I will from now on not refer to Israel by name. It is the Zionist Cancer. That is what it is. That is ALL it is. Cancer. The region needs a good oncologist.

 

[Boston tiger]

5. Criticizing Israel just fuels extremism on both sides.
6. Mass rape.
7. October 7 was the worst thing to ever happen, to anyone, ever.

Having your daughter raped then shot in the head would have to be up there with the worse things happening to anyone.
Stop being pathetic.

 

[sr36]

I will from now on not refer to Israel by name. It is the Zionist Cancer. That is what it is. That is ALL it is. Cancer. The region needs a good oncologist.

Jesus. Sounding pretty genocidal.

It's currently being led by some brutal expansionary *******s - like Russia and China - but the majority of Israelis were born there, have no other home and don't deserve to be driven into the sea any more than the majority of Palestinians do.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Jesus. Sounding pretty genocidal.

It's currently being led by some brutal expansionary *******s - like Russia and China - but the majority of Israelis were born there, have no other home and don't deserve to be driven into the sea any more than the majority of Palestinians do.

I'm not talking about driving Jews into the sea. I'm talking about only erasing exclusionary Zionism. You know these settlements are for Jews only, in an occupied territory that isn't even a legal part of Israel Proper? The Zionist Cancer sponsors all this, exasperating and perpetuating the Palestinian resistance to it.

It is a cancer. It needs to be removed. NOT Jews, just Exclusionary Zionism.

 

[sr36]

I'm not talking about driving Jews into the sea. I'm talking about only erasing exclusionary Zionism. You know these settlements are for Jews only, in an occupied territory that isn't even a legal part of Israel Proper? The Zionist Cancer sponsors all this, exasperating and perpetuating the Palestinian resistance to it.

It is a cancer. It needs to be removed. NOT Jews, just Exclusionary Zionism.

I agree and unfortunately that's the current government and for a variety of reasons there isn't enough opposition within Israel to what theyre doing.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I agree and unfortunately that's the current government and for a variety of reasons there isn't enough opposition within Israel to what theyre doing.

so you are saying that the majority of Israelis are exclusionary zionists?

 

[sr36]

so you are saying that the majority of Israelis are exclusionary zionists?

How did you interpret that?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

How did you interpret that?

Because if the majority opposed the exclusionary zionist regime, there wouldn't be a genocide happening right now.

So if there's not enough opposition to it, as you said... the majority support it, yeah?

 

[sr36]

Because if the majority opposed the exclusionary zionist regime, there wouldn't be a genocide happening right now.

So if there's not enough opposition to it, as you said... the majority support it, yeah?

Israelis have long had genuine security concerns just as Palestinans have long had genuine oppression concerns meaning you're going to get a fair bit of support for this War and Oct 7 from within the respective communities. Then in terms of this war genuine opposition has been oppressed and made it harder to speak out against it, just as it's hard for Gazan opposition to speak out against the terrorism approach to Israel by those with the guns.

I don't think the general population of Israel are brutal oppressors, not do I think that the general population of Palestinians are terrorists. But some on either side try to paint that image of the two populations and succeed in the eyes of their supporters.

 

[PieLebo87]

Israelis have long had genuine security concerns just as Palestinans have long had genuine oppression concerns meaning you're going to get a fair bit of support for this War and Oct 7 from within the respective communities. Then in terms of this war genuine opposition has been oppressed and made it harder to speak out against it, just as it's hard for Gazan opposition to speak out against the terrorism approach to Israel by those with the guns.

I don't think the general population of Israel are brutal oppressors, not do I think that the general population of Palestinians are terrorists. But some on either side try to paint that image of the two populations and succeed in the eyes of their supporters.

Are you an Australian politician by any chance? You sound like one.

 

[sr36]

Are you an Australian politician by any chance? You sound like one.

I think from time to time people in here post stuff that sounds like it's straight from the Israeli settlers war cabinet, but with Palestinian changed to Israeli.

 

[Maggie5]

Israelis have long had genuine security concerns just as Palestinans have long had genuine oppression concerns meaning you're going to get a fair bit of support for this War and Oct 7 from within the respective communities. Then in terms of this war genuine opposition has been oppressed and made it harder to speak out against it, just as it's hard for Gazan opposition to speak out against the terrorism approach to Israel by those with the guns.

I don't think the general population of Israel are brutal oppressors, not do I think that the general population of Palestinians are terrorists. But some on either side try to paint that image of the two populations and succeed in the eyes of their supporters.

That reads like the way I punt. A little bit each way.

 

[sr36]

That reads like the way I punt. A little bit each way.

Its only footy that is and should be all black and white Mags.

There won't be peace there until Palestinians get a state and freedom and Israelis get security.

 

[Number37]

Its only footy that is and should be all black and white Mags.

There won't be peace there until Palestinians get a state and freedom and Israelis get security.

"Israeli security" is the biggest lie of all the Zionist lies.

Palestinian statehood and freedom has got f-all to do with "Israeli security".

 

[sr36]

"Israeli security" is the biggest lie of all the Zionist lies.

Palestinian statehood and freedom has got f-all to do with "Israeli security".

You're kidding yourself.

The birth of Israel was greeted with a war against a group of armies sworn to abolish them. And ever since they've been regularly shelled. Regular wars. Multiple countries demanding their death. Suicide bombers and other attacks. It's what most Israelis have been born into. Just as most Palestinians have been born into an occupying army oppressing them.

No doubt there are religious fundamentalists who are driven by a view of supremacy - on both sides.

 

[do_i_look_worried_go_ahe]

It must be noted that antisemitism, in both its religious and pseudo-scientific forms, is rife across the Muslim world – in schools and universities, in the media and popular culture, and (usually in slightly coded form) in government statements. “Mein Kampf” and the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” are widely read in Arabic translation. (The “Protocols” are cited in Article 32 of the Hamas Charter of 1988.) Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, is a Holocaust denier. Schools in the Palestinian Territories, run by UNRWA and paid for in part with your taxes, have taught antisemitism to generations of Palestinian children, including those who went on to commit the atrocities of 7 October. I’d be more impressed by condemnations of antisemitism from the “friends of Palestine” if they were more honest about the depths of antisemitism among their Palestinian friends.

So am I an Islamophobe? As an atheist, I don’t think the religious doctrines of Islam are any more or less absurd than those of any other religion. I judge all religions by the behaviour of their adherents. In that sense I am judging them by an ethical standard: does a given religion imbue its followers with ethical standards, or does it not? And of course by ethical standards I mean my ethical standards, which I would broadly describe as liberal, democratic, secular and humanist. Judged by that standard, Buddhism comes out on top, while Islam comes last by a long way. All the other religions are located somewhere between these two extremes.

That is not to say that Buddhists are perfect or that Muslims are evil. But it is to say that the correlations between Islam and oppressive government, between Islam and misogyny and homophobia (in the modern sense of that word), and between Islam and terrorism, are too close to be seen as coincidental. The correlation between Muslim-majority status and undemocratic government is striking. Of the (about) 50 Muslim-majority countries, fewer than ten can be described even loosely as democracies, and of the larger ones only Indonesia and Malaysia qualify. Most Muslim-majority countries continue to criminalise male homosexuality. Most Muslim-majority countries impose behavioural and occupational restrictions on women, either by law or by convention.

I don’t consider myself “phobic” about Islam or Muslims. But many people are entitled to be fearful of a religion which says that gay men and such ought to be killed, and which has shown in the countries where it holds power that it means what it says. I am entitled (in Australia at any rate) to say so without being called an Islamophobe. My anger over the past six months is directed mainly at people in countries like Australia, safe (mostly) from the actions of Islamist terrorists, who make excuses for events such as the Hamas atrocities in Israel, while falsely in many cases (though not all) accusing Israel of war crimes, and who accuse those who condemn Islamist terrorism of Islamophobia.

To be absolutely clear, nothing I have said here excuses abuse or discrimination against or violent attacks on individual Muslims. Much of what is commonly described as Islamophobia is in fact anti-Arab racism, and this is no less contemptible than any other form of racism.

 

[sr36]

It must be noted that antisemitism, in both its religious and pseudo-scientific forms, is rife across the Muslim world – in schools and universities, in the media and popular culture, and (usually in slightly coded form) in government statements. “Mein Kampf” and the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” are widely read in Arabic translation. (The “Protocols” are cited in Article 32 of the Hamas Charter of 1988.) Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, is a Holocaust denier. Schools in the Palestinian Territories, run by UNRWA and paid for in part with your taxes, have taught antisemitism to generations of Palestinian children, including those who went on to commit the atrocities of 7 October. I’d be more impressed by condemnations of antisemitism from the “friends of Palestine” if they were more honest about the depths of antisemitism among their Palestinian friends.

So am I an Islamophobe? As an atheist, I don’t think the religious doctrines of Islam are any more or less absurd than those of any other religion. I judge all religions by the behaviour of their adherents. In that sense I am judging them by an ethical standard: does a given religion imbue its followers with ethical standards, or does it not? And of course by ethical standards I mean my ethical standards, which I would broadly describe as liberal, democratic, secular and humanist. Judged by that standard, Buddhism comes out on top, while Islam comes last by a long way. All the other religions are located somewhere between these two extremes.

That is not to say that Buddhists are perfect or that Muslims are evil. But it is to say that the correlations between Islam and oppressive government, between Islam and misogyny and homophobia (in the modern sense of that word), and between Islam and terrorism, are too close to be seen as coincidental. The correlation between Muslim-majority status and undemocratic government is striking. Of the (about) 50 Muslim-majority countries, fewer than ten can be described even loosely as democracies, and of the larger ones only Indonesia and Malaysia qualify. Most Muslim-majority countries continue to criminalise male homosexuality. Most Muslim-majority countries impose behavioural and occupational restrictions on women, either by law or by convention.

I don’t consider myself “phobic” about Islam or Muslims. But many people are entitled to be fearful of a religion which says that gay men and such ought to be killed, and which has shown in the countries where it holds power that it means what it says. I am entitled (in Australia at any rate) to say so without being called an Islamophobe. My anger over the past six months is directed mainly at people in countries like Australia, safe (mostly) from the actions of Islamist terrorists, who make excuses for events such as the Hamas atrocities in Israel, while falsely in many cases (though not all) accusing Israel of war crimes, and who accuse those who condemn Islamist terrorism of Islamophobia.

To be absolutely clear, nothing I have said here excuses abuse or discrimination against or violent attacks on individual Muslims. Much of what is commonly described as Islamophobia is in fact anti-Arab racism, and this is no less contemptible than any other form of racism.

In terms of your ranking of religions, based on current views in a secular democracy, I don't think you're showing much respect for history. Christian secular democracies have only very recently become woke. In fact they've only been around for a historical blip in terms of the lives of these religions. Expecting all other cultures to be at the same point at the same time is a bit ridiculous when we're talking about thousands of years of cultural evolution to reach the point we are currently at, which might not stick in the Christian world anyway.