Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
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It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Yes and there is absolutely zero evidence the Isaeli's are torturing its prisoners of war.

Did you see that 20 year old woman being led into captivity with massive bleeding from the back of her pants and her achilles cut - that's how Hamas treats its prisoners.

The thousands of Palestinians Israel arrests, tortures, holds even in death

As Palestinians mark Prisoner’s Day, Israel continues to hold and mistreat thousands of Palestinian captives.

www.aljazeera.com

FYI - That's literally the first result that comes up when I put "IDF torture Palestinian captives"... But nah... Nothing to see here...

You'll also note who is making the statement about the conditions of the prisoners...

 

[faible]

Yes and there is absolutely zero evidence the Isaeli's are torturing its prisoners of war.

Did you see that 20 year old woman being led into captivity with massive bleeding from the back of her pants and her achilles cut - that's how Hamas treats its prisoners.

Geez you'd hate to have gone 'balls in' on a statement like that...

 

[Tiger 79]

Framing the problem as "why aren't other countries helping Israel commit ethnic cleansing" is not clever.

I said why aren't the Ummah helping their fellow members as instructed in their Quran?

If Israel said the Palestinians could return, Egypt would take them.

So Egypt not taking them helps who, the Ummah?

I just disagree with you, to me people are more important than land.

Maybe Israel could evacuate Ashkelon and Ashdod, historically Palestinian areas, and Palestinians could live there?

Maybe the muslim Palestinians can just accept that their former land was stolen just like the Mexicans have accepted that the USA stole Mexican land, why isn't that an option? It would stop "Israel's" expansion plans, at least until the next muslim group aid "Israel" with their expansion plans.

 

[Saint]

Nothing to see here, just a march for ethnic cleansing through the streets of Israel. Co-ordinated with the IDF and with MKs in attendance.

I wonder how many other countries would get away with open marches and protests promoting Genocide. So much for "Never Again".

By the way, the Australian Jewish Association raises money for this genocidal Nachala Settler Movement in Australia, they do it as a tax-free not-for-profit.

I wonder if I started raising money for the genocidal removal of people from Israel if I would also get tax-free status.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-sign-up-for-independence-day-march-backing-gaza-resettlement/

 

[Saint]

I said why aren't the Ummah helping their fellow members as instructed in their Quran?

So Egypt not taking them helps who, the Ummah?

I just disagree with you, to me people are more important than land.


Maybe the muslim Palestinians can just accept that their former land was stolen just like the Mexicans have accepted that the USA stole Mexican land, why isn't that an option? It would stop "Israel's" expansion plans, at least until the next muslim group aid "Israel" with their expansion plans.

Does the Torah not suggest to Israelis to stop killing women and children anywhere? Why does one side have to follow their religious text, but the other doesn't? (the real answer is that religion doesn't matter)

So, the Palestinian people get displaced during the Nakba, then they get displaced again to refugee camps in Egypt?

Answer me why the refugee camps should be in Egypt instead of Israel (as international law requires)?

Maybe the Jewish Israelis' should have just accepted that they had been exterminated and ceased to exist? Isn't that what you're asking of Palestinians, to become Egyptians?

What do you think will stop Israel's expansion plans? When they reach the Egyptian border?

 

[QuietB]

 

[QuietB]

I did note how any jury that gave Israel more than a 3 point vote copped abuse (song was not great - and that’s without knowing the original lyrics). What surprised was the public vote for the song.

They are organised.

 

[faible]

Does the Torah not suggest to Israelis to stop killing women and children anywhere? Why does one side have to follow their religious text, but the other doesn't? (the real answer is that religion doesn't matter)

So, the Palestinian people get displaced during the Nakba, then they get displaced again to refugee camps in Egypt?

Answer me why the refugee camps should be in Egypt instead of Israel (as international law requires)?

Maybe the Jewish Israelis' should have just accepted that they had been exterminated and ceased to exist? Isn't that what you're asking of Palestinians, to become Egyptians?

What do you think will stop Israel's expansion plans? When they reach the Egyptian border?

Just a sock puppet account used to blame Muslims for everything.

 

[Chief]

I just disagree with you, to me people are more important than land.

So you agree Israel must stop the killing and leave?

 

[Tiger 79]

Isn't that what you're asking of Palestinians, to become Egyptians?

They'd still be Palestinians, just like the Jews were still Jews without a country of their own, but in this case the Palestinian "civilians" would be sunni muslim in a majority sunni muslim country.

Egypt really should help their fellow Ummah members, but, there is obviously a reason they don't want to help these particular sunni muslims from Palestine, not sure what it is though.

We can't expect "Israel" to return stolen land anymore than the Mexicans can expect the USA ("Israel's" allies) to reuturn their stolen land, so something's got to give.

 

[Chief]

Egypt really should help their fellow Ummah members, but, there is obviously a reason they don't want to help these particular sunni muslims from Palestine, not sure what it is though.

I am sure you have a theory, Hasbara 79.

 

[Maggie5]

They'd still be Palestinians, just like the Jews were still Jews without a country of their own, but in this case the Palestinian "civilians" would be sunni muslim in a majority sunni muslim country.

Egypt really should help their fellow Ummah members, but, there is obviously a reason they don't want to help these particular sunni muslims from Palestine, not sure what it is though.

We can't expect "Israel" to return stolen land anymore than the Mexicans can expect the USA ("Israel's" allies) to reuturn their stolen land, so something's got to give.

In summary... Israel does not belong to the Jews, they stole it?

 

[Tiger 79]

In summary... Israel does not belong to the Jews, they stole it?

I know that, and the theft was aided by the allies, but none of that takes away from the fact that it is Jewish land now, right?

No one, except me, would say that Texas, California etc. belongs to Mexico would they?

 

[Tiger 79]

I am sure you have a theory, Hasbara 79.

What's Hasbara?

 

[Saint]

I know that, and the theft was aided by the allies, but none of that takes away from the fact that it is Jewish land now, right?

No one, except me, would say that Texas, California etc. belongs to Mexico would they?

It's not "Jewish" land. It's Israeli land.

Framing everything as "jewish" and "muslim" is incorrect.

 

[Tiger 79]

It's not "Jewish" land. It's Israeli land.

It was the land of the Judeans i.e. Jewish.

 

[QuietB]

It was the land of the Judeans i.e. Jewish.

Not this shit again. The Ethiopians walked through there first. Might as well give it back to them.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yes and there is absolutely zero evidence the Isaeli's are torturing its prisoners of war.

This from 2022. The nation of Israel is identified as the "State party".

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/human-rights-committees-concluding-observations-on-fifth-periodic-report-of-israel-ccpr-c-isr-co-5-advance-unedited-version/

Distr.: General
5 May 2022

...Prohibition of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or
punishment

28. The Committee is deeply concerned that, despite the affirmation in the State party’s report of 201721 that its authorities were in the final stage of drafting a bill on the prohibition of torture, no such law has been adopted. It is also concerned that the State party continues to recognize the defence of “necessity” as a legal justification for torture and that an independent monitoring mechanism has not been established for detention facilities. While noting real-time monitoring of the interrogation rooms of the Israel Security Agency through closed-circuit television, the Committee remains concerned that no recording, apart from a concise memorandum, is kept of the video transmission of the actual interrogations, leaving torture victims without audio or visual documentation to be used as evidence in courts (arts.7 and 14).

29. Bearing in mind the Committee’s previous recommendations, 22 the State party should place an absolute ban on torture, including by incorporating into its legislation, such as the draft basic law on the rights of suspects and defendants, a definition of torture that is fully in line with article 7 of the Covenant, and removing the notion of “necessity” as a possible justification for the crime of torture. It should also establish an independent and effective monitoring mechanism for all detention facilities within its territory and occupied territories, keep audio and visual documentation of all interrogations taking place in the facilities of the Israel Security Agency and ensure that such documentation can be used as evidence in courts.

30. The Committee is deeply concerned about reports of the widespread and systematic practice of torture and ill-treatment by Israel Prison Service guards and the Israeli security forces against Palestinians, including children, at the time of arrest and in detention. It is particularly concerned about the use of physical and psychological violence, sleep deprivation, stress positions and prolonged solitary confinement, including against children and detainees with intellectual or psychosocial disabilities. It also notes with concern a very low rate of criminal investigations, prosecutions and convictions concerning allegations of torture and ill-treatment (arts. 7, 9, 10 and 24).

31. In view of the Committee’s previous recommendations, 23 the State party should take all necessary measures to end the practice of torture and ill-treatment against Palestinian detainees, particularly children, in line with the Covenant and international standards, as reflected in the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners (the Nelson Mandela Rules).

In particular, it should consider abolishing the use of solitary confinement against children and developing alternative measures where necessary. It should ensure that all allegations of torture and ill- treatment are promptly, impartially, thoroughly and effectively investigated, that perpetrators are prosecuted and, if found guilty, are punished with sanctions commensurate with the severity of the crime, and that victims are provided with full reparation, including rehabilitation and adequate compensation.

32. The Committee is particularly concerned that, pursuant to amendment No. 3 to the Counter Terrorism Law of 2018, the Israeli police authorities have been withholding the bodies of Palestinian militants and civilians who allegedly committed terrorist acts and were killed by the Israeli security forces. It is further concerned that the bodies were used as leverage for the release of the bodies of Israelis held by Palestinian militant groups, and that the authorities set conditions for the release of bodies, including the payment of deposits and specific requirements for the funerals, including a limited number of participants and immediate burial. It expresses concern that the practice of withholding the bodies of the deceased and denying the right of their families to bury them may amount to collective punishment and to torture and ill-treatment (arts. 6 and 7)...

Also

https://www.omct.org/site-resources/files/Submission_SR_Torture_final-15.2.24.pdf

Also

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/07/special-rapporteur-says-israels-unlawful-carceral-practices-occupied-palestinian

Also

ISRAEL/OPT: HORRIFYING CASES OF TORTURE AND DEGRADING TREATMENT OF PALESTINIAN DETAINEES AMID SPIKE IN ARBITRARY ARRESTS

Israeli authorities have dramatically increased their use of administrative detention, a form of arbitrary detention, of Palestinians across the occupied

www.amnesty.org.au

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Maybe the muslim Palestinians can just accept that their former land was stolen just like the Mexicans have accepted that the USA stole Mexican land, why isn't that an option? It would stop "Israel's" expansion plans, at least until the next muslim group aid "Israel" with their expansion plans.

Because they keep stealing land. They take more and more of it each month. Are you really that simple minded?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Did you see that 20 year old woman being led into captivity with massive bleeding from the back of her pants and her achilles cut - that's how Hamas treats its prisoners.

Yes, and the image horrified me. Have no doubt, I wish nothing but death to those who use rape as a weapon, a means of punishment or as some kind of 'revenge'. There can be no justification for it in any shape or form.

I can only hope that the perpetrators of such acts are now dead and that they died screaming.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

They'd still be Palestinians, just like the Jews were still Jews without a country of their own, but in this case the Palestinian "civilians" would be sunni muslim in a majority sunni muslim country.

Egypt really should help their fellow Ummah members, but, there is obviously a reason they don't want to help these particular sunni muslims from Palestine, not sure what it is though.

We can't expect "Israel" to return stolen land anymore than the Mexicans can expect the USA ("Israel's" allies) to reuturn their stolen land, so something's got to give.

There is a good reason why the Palestinians aren't being offered haven by any other arab muslim country... they ahve been there before and its backfired terribly with the palestinians. Kuwait, Jordan, Lebanon...all accepted Palestinian refugees and ended up fighting an extremist internal war with them that decimated their countries. There is no way Egypt will accept them nor should they given their alliance to Hamas and their history.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I said why aren't the Ummah helping their fellow members as instructed in their Quran?

It's all bad blood and politics...

How to understand Egypt’s role in the Israel-Hamas conflict

The legacy of past conflicts is holding up aid at the Gaza border with Egypt.

www.vox.com

Oct 15, 2023

Egypt has a complex relationship with Hamas​

...Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza and perpetrated last week’s attack on Israel, counts Iran as its closest state ally. But the group has a long and complicated relationship with Egypt, too, which makes backchannel, or unofficial, communications possible.

Egypt and Qatar have negotiating backchannels with Hamas, Natan Sachs, director of the Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution, told Vox in an interview.

“There are backchannels; there always were,” Sachs said. “The main one is with the Egyptians — they have open communication with Hamas. They despise Hamas, of course, and they blockade the Gaza Strip, but their intelligence has frequent communication with Hamas.” This has allowed them in the past to negotiate ceasefires and exchanges between Israel and Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups, he said.

The primary reason Egypt despises Hamas, as Sachs put it, is because it originated as the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist group which Ḥasan al-Bannā, a teacher, devout Muslim, and Egyptian nationalist, started in Egypt in 1928.

The Muslim Brotherhood began as a religious and educational group focused on providing social services in Egypt; it took as its guiding principle the idea that the Quran and the Hadith — a text most Muslims believe contains the words and traditions of the prophet Muhammad and a basis of Islamic law — should be the foundations of modern Muslim society. The group spread quickly in the Arab world in the 1930s and ’40s, during which time it also became more violent and more politicized. The group’s failed assassination of Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser in October 1954 initiated a government crackdown, forcing the group underground throughout the 1960s and ’70s.

But things were different in Gaza, which Egypt had controlled before Israel took it over in its 1967 war with the coalition of Egypt and Syria. “Ironically, the Muslim Brotherhood [could] now operate” in Gaza, Daniel Byman, a senior fellow with the Transnational Threats Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told Vox in an interview.

And because the Palestinian liberation cause was closely aligned with Arab nationalist and international communist projects during that time, to Israel, “political Islam seemed better than Arab nationalism,” Byman said. The Palestinian left was, in the 1970s and ’80s in particular, the main opposition to the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat. Those secular, Marxist groups were responsible for several terror operations throughout the Middle East at the height of their power.

“Hamas comes directly out of the Muslim Brotherhood” in Gaza, “not a spinoff or anything like that. It is the Muslim Brotherhood,” Byman said.


For nearly 40 years, the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, which became Hamas, didn’t have sufficient power to be a threat to Egypt; they didn’t even participate in the First Intifada, or Palestinian uprising, Byman said. But when Hamas gained that power during its takeover of Gaza in 2007, former Egyptian autocrat Hosni Mubarak called the situation a “coup against legitimacy” and supported Israel’s blockade against Gaza. Mubarak was deposed during the Arab Spring, and Egyptians elected Mohammed Morsi, who was affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood and hoped to expand relations with Gaza.

Morsi served only a year and four days before he was deposed by Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, Egypt’s current strongman president. Sisi has heavily suppressed the Muslim Brotherhood and has in the past vilified Hamas and its connection with the Brotherhood. But he has also coordinated with the group against an Islamic State insurgency in the Sinai, supported relief efforts in Gaza, and mediated ceasefires between Israel and Hamas in previous rounds of conflict. That mediating role also strengthens the US’s reliance on Egypt and Sisi...

 

[Saint]

It was the land of the Judeans i.e. Jewish.

Very little of what is now Israel was part of Judea.

Ashkelon and Ashdod, for example, were never part of Judea, nor was any of the Negev

 

[QuietB]

Allegra Splender calling for anti-semitism envoy and an anti-semitism judicial enquiry is next level gaslighting by the IDF supporters.

Completely related 60% of Australians recently voted to not allow First Nations peoples a voice - you don't need an envoy or judicial enquiry to conclude that Australians are simply racist campaigners.

 

[Tiger 79]

The Ethiopians walked through there first. Might as well give it back to them.

But the Ethiopians don't want it. The Jews did, got aided by the allies in stealing what they see to be theirs, and now it's theirs, just like California, Texas etc. is the USA's.